No Adobe Support for Sigma Merril

Started Feb 26, 2013 | Discussions
SethG
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Re: So you've written Adobe, right?
In reply to mordicai, Feb 27, 2013

mordicai wrote:

Funny Richard, I have two of your products but can't remember ever writing to ask to you to procduce them. Are you really suggesting that Adobe is so out of touch with the photographic community on the web that they don't know that Merril owners are hoping for support from Lightroom. Jeff Schewe and Mr Chan are two LR engineers who are prolific contributers on Luminous Lightroom, and we all know Michaels feelings about Sigma software. Come on Richard, hyou can't be serious.

It's not the same thing. Designing a grip for the Sigma doesn't have to be a complicated process (it can be, of course). Designing software is a very complicated process. Sigma may not be giving Adobe the information they need to create the RAW interpreter and Adobe doesn't want to invest the R&D time to get it to figure it out. Or Sigma has given it, but it will take X number of hours to develop and test the solution, but Adobe doesn't feel that it will generate enough new sales of software to make it worthwhile.

I mean, their market research may show that there are only 1000 potential Sigma buyers who would also buy Lightroom or Photoshop, and they would need to expect to sell at least 10,000 copies of Lightroom for it to make sense. (just to make up numbers)

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Erik Magnuson
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Re: So you've written Adobe, right?
In reply to SethG, Feb 27, 2013

SethG wrote:

I mean, their market research may show that there are only 1000 potential Sigma buyers who would also buy Lightroom or Photoshop, and they would need to expect to sell at least 10,000 copies of Lightroom for it to make sense. (just to make up numbers)

Even worse, perhaps most of those who want it already own/use Lightroom/Photoshop for other cameras so the number of additional sales would be quite minimal.

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Erik

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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It's a matter of priorities, not wants
In reply to mordicai, Feb 27, 2013

mordicai wrote:

Funny Richard, I have two of your products but can't remember ever writing to ask to you to procduce them. Are you really suggesting that Adobe is so out of touch with the photographic community on the web that they don't know that Merril owners are hoping for support from Lightroom. Jeff Schewe and Mr Chan are two LR engineers who are prolific contributers on Luminous Lightroom, and we all know Michaels feelings about Sigma software. Come on Richard, hyou can't be serious.

Adobe being Adobe assumes that every photographer on the planet wants ACR support for every camera.

But they only have so many people and so much time to work on camera support. To that end, when choosing what work to do he squeaky wheel gets the grease, as is true in so many other areas of life...

It's free to write Adobe and does no harm, and it could possibly bring about a greatly desired result.  So what is the harm in asking Adobe for something you want?

What is obvious, going back to the original post that started this thread, is that Adobe will seemingly not be adding this without further motivation.  So we as a photographic community must act to provide it.

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Joerg V
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Calculation
In reply to Erik Magnuson, Feb 27, 2013

The calculation:

How many Merrill cameras have been sold? Let's assume: 10000 (SD1[M] + DPxM). How many will be sold in future... let's say 10000.

How many Merrill cameras per buyer? Maybe: 1.3

Let's assume that 30% of those are interested in Lightroom support for the Merrills.

Some of those will already have Lightroom - maybe 50%.

Of those remaining, how many will actually buy Lightroom and won't got for an "extended" trial period? Maybe 30%.

So we have 20000 / 1.3 * 30% * 50% * 30% = 700 potential buyers.

So the support for the Merrils should not cost more than 700 * 80€ = 56000€.

That's is what a programmer earns per month. Adobe wants to make some money, so Merrill-X3F support better should not cost more than two man weeks (10 days).

That's 10 days to deal with the Foveon data, create camera profiles and maybe lens profiles. Even robustly (= no crash on corrupted data, buffer overflow checks, sanity checks) parsing a binary format takes some days. Hey Roland, how did it take to write the parser? Now add the hassle to deal with the Foveon specifics...

Based on that, it is highly unlikely that we will see Lr support for the Merrills.

Maybe my guestimated numbers are wrong...

Cheers

Joerg

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JL Salvignol
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Re: Calculation
In reply to Joerg V, Feb 27, 2013

I have and I use CS since CS2 and LR since LR1. It is certain that I will not buy a DPM until the day ACR/LR treat X3F files, as it treats perfectly my 3FR, NEF and PEF. The sequence seems very simple and logical. I don't think i am the only one that feels this way...

And incidentally it's just a free update.

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JLS

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Erik Magnuson
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Re: Calculation
In reply to JL Salvignol, Feb 27, 2013

JL Salvignol wrote:

I have and I use CS since CS2 and LR since LR1. It is certain that I will not buy a DPM until the day ACR/LR treat X3F files, as it treats perfectly my 3FR, NEF and PEF. The sequence seems very simple and logical. I don't think i am the only one that feels this way...

This is an economic argument on why Sigma should provide Adobe extra incentive to add DPM support, not why Adobe should add it at their own expense.  Now if you said the opposite - you refuse to buy/upgrade LR/PS until they support the DPM - that would be incentive for Adobe.

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Erik

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BobNL
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Technical difficulties/challenges
In reply to mordicai, Feb 27, 2013

I think the Merrill files prove to be a big challenge for Adobe to include in their current treatment of RAW files. See for instance my thread about White Balance, can't see how they would include that into their current White Balance tool.

Still it would be great if they could support (if only for cataloging) but I'm not holding my breath on anything soon.

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scrane
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Re: No Adobe Support for Sigma Merril
In reply to mordicai, Feb 27, 2013

I think Adobe is waiting for feedback from Hasselblad Lunar owners before tackling the limited market of Sigma users.

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Erik Magnuson
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Is this new to the Merrill sensor
In reply to BobNL, Feb 27, 2013

BobNL wrote:

I think the Merrill files prove to be a big challenge for Adobe to include in their current treatment of RAW files. See for instance my thread about White Balance, can't see how they would include that into their current White Balance tool.

I thought that each white balance used different conversion matrices was always true of X3F, e.g. SPP has always reprocessed the entire image when a different WB was selected. (Heck, it used to be that the WB setting was always written to the X3F file if changed.) Are the Merrill sensors so different from previous sensors in this way?

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Erik

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3dreal
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Re: They had X3F support before
In reply to SandyF, Feb 27, 2013

SandyF wrote:

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

PrebenR wrote:

Adobe has released their new Lightroom 4.4 with out any support for Sigma Merril's. If there is no support by now my feeling is that it aint coming. Very depressing!

As Adobe cannot even manage to demosaic the Fuji X-trans sensor files, I'm not surprised they don't add Merrill support. It is completely different to work with 3 layers of data than 1 layer.

Of note is that ACR does support X3F files - just from the SD-14 and earlier. So it's not unthinkable they would add an update to support the Merrill sensor, as the cameras grow in popularity.

Right, Adobe's ACR seems to support the SD15 RAW too, at least it's reading something in the files and showing file names/photos SDIM0044.X3F for example... The SD15 RAW should be essentially like the SD14 RAW and DP1 and DP2 RAW, same sensor.

For readers not familiar with Sigma/Foveon, the Merrill cameras have a new, different sensor.

Best regards, Sandy
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The Merril cameras AND SD1(same as SD1M=SD1 with new name) have newest sensor.

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Richard Franiec
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Re: So you've written Adobe, right?
In reply to mordicai, Feb 27, 2013

mordicai wrote:

Funny Richard, I have two of your products but can't remember ever writing to ask to you to procduce them. Are you really suggesting that Adobe is so out of touch with the photographic community on the web that they don't know that Merril owners are hoping for support from Lightroom. Jeff Schewe and Mr Chan are two LR engineers who are prolific contributers on Luminous Lightroom, and we all know Michaels feelings about Sigma software. Come on Richard, hyou can't be serious.

You'll be surprised how market feedback could influence development of new things and update of existing ones.

Every time new cameras are announced I receive numerous Emails regarding possibility for respective accessories. More than once such feedback resulted in development. More than once - not, depending on magnitude of interest (and my own "gut feeling", among other factors).

Maybe micro-scale in my case is not representative for global business but I believe that the customer (even potential one) is the marketplace's most important stimulant of progress and innovation.

Cheers

Richard

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mordicai
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Re: So you've written Adobe, right?
In reply to Richard Franiec, Feb 27, 2013

Richard Franiec wrote:

mordicai wrote:

Funny Richard, I have two of your products but can't remember ever writing to ask to you to procduce them. Are you really suggesting that Adobe is so out of touch with the photographic community on the web that they don't know that Merril owners are hoping for support from Lightroom. Jeff Schewe and Mr Chan are two LR engineers who are prolific contributers on Luminous Lightroom, and we all know Michaels feelings about Sigma software. Come on Richard, hyou can't be serious.

You'll be surprised how market feedback could influence development of new things and update of existing ones.

Every time new cameras are announced I receive numerous Emails regarding possibility for respective accessories. More than once such feedback resulted in development. More than once - not, depending on magnitude of interest (and my own "gut feeling", among other factors).

Maybe micro-scale in my case is not representative for global business but I believe that the customer (even potential one) is the marketplace's most important stimulant of progress and innovation.

Cheers

Richard

I agree with what you say Richard. Feedback from consumers is important in motivating a company to produce a product. All I was saying is that it's my belief, that Abobe is getting this feedback in spades from photographers using Merril cameras. They are getting it on the net everyday. Primary Lightroom software engineers are members of photo chat rooms and they are constantly reading this feedback. However, as others have stated, it can't hurt to try harder. How about a picket of Adobes offices demanding LR4 SUPPORT NOW!!!

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solarsky
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Re: No Adobe Support for Sigma Merril
In reply to mordicai, Feb 27, 2013
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Jeff Schewe
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Re: So you've written Adobe, right?
In reply to mordicai, Feb 27, 2013

mordicai wrote:

Jeff Schewe and Mr Chan are two LR engineers who are prolific contributers on Luminous Lightroom, and we all know Michaels feelings about Sigma software. Come on Richard, hyou can't be serious.

Just to be clear, I'm not an Adobe engineer...I don't work for Adobe (although I sometimes work with them) and I don't do code...as far as Mike's feelings about Sigma, I think that has more to do with the way they are running the company and not so much about their cameras...so I don't think it's fair to characterize LuLa as being anti-Sigma.

As for Eric, I can't speak for him, but I expect he would love to get Sigma raw support as soon as possible but I also suspect there are more technical and not political issues involved. Sigma files are really tough to demosaic because the sensor is so different.

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Regards, Jeff Schewe

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mordicai
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Re: So you've written Adobe, right?
In reply to Jeff Schewe, Feb 28, 2013

Jeff Schewe wrote:

mordicai wrote:

Jeff Schewe and Mr Chan are two LR engineers who are prolific contributers on Luminous Lightroom, and we all know Michaels feelings about Sigma software. Come on Richard, hyou can't be serious.

Just to be clear, I'm not an Adobe engineer...I don't work for Adobe (although I sometimes work with them) and I don't do code...as far as Mike's feelings about Sigma, I think that has more to do with the way they are running the company and not so much about their cameras...so I don't think it's fair to characterize LuLa as being anti-Sigma.

As for Eric, I can't speak for him, but I expect he would love to get Sigma raw support as soon as possible but I also suspect there are more technical and not political issues involved. Sigma files are really tough to demosaic because the sensor is so different.

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Regards, Jeff Schewe

Hi Jeff, Didn't know you followed DPR. I have your book and have followed you for years on LuLu, so I know who you are, but was trying to make a point that people in the know at Adobe follow the photo chat sites. I took a little liberty to make a point and thank you for making for me. We don't have to start writting letters to Adobe to let them know we want them to support Sigma Merril.....they know! For those that don't know, Jeff has released a book called the "Digital Negitive", which is a wonderful guide to understanding and working with....the digital negitive.

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SigmaChrome
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Re: No Adobe Support for Sigma Merril
In reply to mordicai, Feb 28, 2013

Merrill not Merril.

Ta.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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It's them that needs to see
In reply to mordicai, Feb 28, 2013

mordicai wrote:

I agree with what you say Richard. Feedback from consumers is important in motivating a company to produce a product. All I was saying is that it's my belief, that Abobe is getting this feedback in spades from photographers using Merril cameras. They are getting it on the net everyday. Primary Lightroom software engineers are members of photo chat rooms and they are constantly reading this feedback. However, as others have stated, it can't hurt to try harder. How about a picket of Adobes offices demanding LR4 SUPPORT NOW!!!

Just a note that the engineers know, but they aren't the ones that really matter... it's more the managers above the engineer.  So if you send in notes to Adobe they have a nice collection of stuff the managers can show managers above them...

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BobNL
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Re: Is this new to the Merrill sensor
In reply to Erik Magnuson, Feb 28, 2013

Erik Magnuson wrote:

BobNL wrote:

I think the Merrill files prove to be a big challenge for Adobe to include in their current treatment of RAW files. See for instance my thread about White Balance, can't see how they would include that into their current White Balance tool.

I thought that each white balance used different conversion matrices was always true of X3F, e.g. SPP has always reprocessed the entire image when a different WB was selected. (Heck, it used to be that the WB setting was always written to the X3F file if changed.) Are the Merrill sensors so different from previous sensors in this way?

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Erik

Yes I believe this is new to the Merrill sensors. Or at least new after the SD14. With the SD10 & Sd14 I was always able to achieve exact same result using the color wheel, no matter which WB preset was used as a starting point.

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Bob van Ooik
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Jeff Schewe
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Re: So you've written Adobe, right?
In reply to mordicai, Mar 1, 2013

mordicai wrote:

Hi Jeff, Didn't know you followed DPR.

I just keep track of when my name is mentioned to be sure and keep things accurate :~)

Thanks for the kind words re: the book, I appreciate it.

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Regards, Jeff Schewe

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jrdigitalart
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Re: So you've written Adobe, right?
In reply to Jeff Schewe, Mar 1, 2013

Jeff Schewe wrote:

mordicai wrote:

Hi Jeff, Didn't know you followed DPR.

I just keep track of when my name is mentioned to be sure and keep things accurate :~)

Thanks for the kind words re: the book, I appreciate it.

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Regards, Jeff Schewe

Jeff, when I look back at all you have achieved in your lifetime, I can only offer you respect. Thanks for all your inspiration.

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