As a huge Panasonic fan, I am quite disheartened by this interview:

In case you haven't seen this tragedy:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/1806874590/cp-2013-panasonic-interview

and my reply in the comments:

"Very sad. Sad that these old, tired Japanese executives are in of charge of young enthusiastic engineers, designers and artists.

Their 1970's mindset combined with spending all day poring over reports from bean-counters and market researchers, has mired them some place a looong way from the ultra-fast paced world that is 2013.

Little wonder that cameras, and Panasonic are amongst the most guilty here, are released in barely out of beta state, with critical design flaws both software and hardware.

Mobile phones have gone from 1.3MP plastic lensed junk to 8-18MP sapphire-crystal (a la Rolex etc) lenses and advanced BSI sensors with super advanced software and dedicated processing hardware, in just a handful of years.

Apart from a (measurable) improvement in noise and operational speed, how far have compact P&S cameras really come in the same time?

Not forgetting that most people never actually pay for their always-with-them and way good enough for instagram/facebook posting smartphone cameras.

This gentleman is sad proof that we may see major and serious changes in the camera market in the coming decade. With monoliths like google, Apple and Samsung sitting on billions each on cash reserves, the fast-going broke Fujis and Lumix divisions have a limited shelf life as independent companies.

Yes very sad, but can you recall seeing the Chief Executive, the big kahuna, of any major multinational corporation seeming so clueless, lost, despondent and utterly blank?"

What do you think?

No what he says is pretty clear and I can follow what he says and see some of what he says

the same way.....

Of the three options for the future compact cameras he sees smaller sensors with brighter

lenses as the mosst viable option...

Nikon sees it just like that too....... and thats not always what some enthusiasts want.. if you look at

the G1X from Canon or the RX1 from Sony......

If you look at the FZ200 its the same philosophy..... small sensor and fast lens....

Panasonic has to look at the sales figures because if it doesnt its going to be more in trouble

then it actually is right now and yes all camera manufacturers have a hard time right now.....

The small compact camera market is declining......

Peter

Personally, I think things for camera manufacturers like Panasonic will improve on the consumer side when they figure out a way to get grandmas parents and teenagers talking about one camera (yes, just one) in a big way the way people talk about iPhones.

Not only are the product line complexities overwhelming with cameras, but add on top of that the specialized knowledge required to learn how to use cameras well. Contrast that with iPhones and Instagram which have become popular precisely because it makes app users and photographers out of people who don't know anything.

I do find it strange to hear Panasonic's leadership confused on how to market image quality. I mean, real cameras dominate iPhones in such an unfunny way that the image quality should sell itself. And yet we live in a parallel universe where poor image quality dominates the market. That is a testimonial to the failure of camera manufacturers to create a consumer product where image quality is easy to achieve. leadership must be a bit confused if they don't know how to sell and market a product that naturally dominates the competition in all the important ways-- the visual results.

Taking an incredibly complicated enthusiast/pro product and slapping a wifi enabled touchscreen menu onto it is not how you build a huge winning consumer product. They need to design their own dumb as doornails consumer smart phone that makes photographers out of grandmas. My guess is such a product does not require you to set the f-stop and ISO and other such things on it.

--
Ted
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tedchang/?src=dpreview-sig
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tedchang/?src=dpreview-sig
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/tedchang/?src=dpreview-sig

High end cameras will always be a niche product. You and I may notice the noise and low DR of iPhone photos, but 95% of people only think its deficient because it doesn't have a zoom lens. (I must even add that the iPhone is on par with my first digital camera I bought in 2001 and at the time I thought it was fine.)

Because high-end cameras are niche, I don't see Google or Apple jumping in.

Google bought out Motorola's entire worldwide mobile phone division for $12.5 BILLION like going to the shops for milk...

You make some very astute points. For example, several DPR members, I will mention Ronomy in particular have spent many hours, collectively in the hundreds without exaggeration, attempting to "tune" the FZ200's myriad settings to achieve satisfactory results.

Witness the early user reviews on Amazon; the return rate was frightening, as casual users did what the Panasonic marketing promised - they turned it to iA and got noisy or blurry photos.

Many upgraders simply applied the settings that had worked (in the main) for the previous FIVE generations of FZs. Only to find the results full of noise and artefacts.

So the obvious question begs to be asked: what exactly are the entire teams of (presumably) university-qualified software engineers doing at Panasonic??? Following orders? If so who is responsible for the seemingly irrational, illogical and sometimes just plain dumb decisions with regard to the software/firmware/interface/controls at the Lumix division?

Why don't they have a rep answering questions at the world's biggest forum?

Why don't they issue regular (any!) firmware updates to address issues that arise after production commences? Can you just imagine if the software/hardware/gaming industry didn't issue ANY updates?

No, we'll fix it in the next model, so you have to keep upgrading every year or two. Whoops, we forgot to fix that bit at all!

They have an exclusive, lucrative and extremely successful licensing contract with Leica; has no one at all at Panasonic ever thought to do a similar deal with NeatImage or Topaz?

Since the FZ18 people have been collectively scratching their head over Panasonic's lack of commitment to customer satisfaction; a case could be made that they struck gold with the Leica deal and have been riding the wave of digital camera growth and market penetration since the early to mid 90's.

Releasing swathes of near identical cameras every year with iterative software gains and ineffective marketing, combined with close to zero retail presence and support, has left you in a very difficult position I imagine.

Most companies in any industry reflect the management's and owner's ethos and drive with the "top-down" effect. Eg Amazon and Virgin. Join the dots and it's not hard to surmise why nearly all Panasonic's consumer divisions are in (Japanese terms at least) fairly serious financial strife.

Well the games up boys. And your worrisome financials are just the tip of the iceberg for what's to come.

Greg

Panasonic needs to figure out how a company like Nike managed to convince young people that their self esteem is somehow linked to wearing a $200 pair of athletic shoes that costs $20 to produce and loses its style factor in six months. When cameras become cool and excellence in image quality becomes sexy and something to lust after, then Panasonic can stop fearing extinction.

--
"Promise me you'll always remember: You're braver than you believe, and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think." (A.A. Milne)

While we're wondering why Panasonic doesn't understand the value of customer service and giving the customer a reason to buy again, I must comment on the utter stupidity of Panasonic for steadfastly refusing to put a rubber eye cup or cushion on the viewfinder mount. I will admit that one reason that I felt no interest in upgrading from the FZ150 to the FZ200 was that it took me months to find a reasonable (not fully satisfying) solution that did not include velcro or felt adhesive pads stuck on the camera body to protect my glasses. I knew the camcorder eyecup that cost me around $17 and an overseas order from Greece would not stretch to fit the larger viewfinder mount on the FZ200. Yep, I'm still ticked off at Panasonic. I deplore stupidity.

--
"Promise me you'll always remember: You're braver than you believe, and stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think." (A.A. Milne)

I've been into photography for 45 years and some things haven't changed as much as some people think they have. When I was shooting with my Canon FTb 35mm SLR the vast majority of people were using Kodak Instamatics. They were cheap, easy to use, and had lousey image quality compared to a 35mm SLR or consumer grade rangefinder camera like a Canonet. They didn't care about image quality any more than they do today.

If anything people in general seem to care more about image quality today than they did then. I live in NYC and I see bus loads of tourists when I'm in Manhattan. I see very few of them shooting with their phones. I see lots of DSLR's and bridge cameras. It seems that their phones are fine for everyday snapshots, when they come to NYC, or any tourist spot (I imagine), they do want quality photos.

As for Panasonic, I shoot with Nikon DSLR's, but for compacts I have a Panasonic LX5 (just ordered an LX7) and a Panasonic ZS15. They may be poorly run, I don't know, but they still make very good cameras. They are also big in M4/3, a growing segmment of the camera market.

Sales for any product consist of additions to the market and replacements. The market for P&S cameras is now pretty much saturated with fewer additions to the market than in years past. Replacments for existing cameras is slowing, at least in part, because casual photographers who make up the vast majority of the market are satisfiied with the camera they own and do not rush out and buy ever new model that comes out. The world economy also doesn't help camera sales among the general public.

I see camera phones as a new sector of the camera market. It will not replace other sectors. I will exist alongside them.

I once bought a Vauxhall Corsa not a Ford Fiesta largely because I could open the boot/trunk without having to use the ignition key.

= Details are important.

My FZ200 is lovely but would be lovelier if-

-  the cigarette lighter wheel worked smoothly on all examples (mine's going back I think).

-  it did not show me the date and time at every possible opportunity (I never, ever, switch it on to find out the date or time). It should be possible to switch off this nonsense.

-  Min Shutter Speed were available in Intelligent Auto Plus and Aperture Priority Modes.

-  Happy Colours were available in PASM Modes.

-  it were more difficult to activate WB and ISO accidentally with my right thumb.

-  the left side of the lens had not sprouted things that I change accidentally (I have had to re-assign Focus to disable it, but I still hit Macro and Manual by mistake).

-  the Quick Menu/EV compensation were as good as on my sold-into-slavery FZ8.

-  NR could be switched off completely (why not? You don't have to switch it off).

-  Default settings were better, so that we do not have to use things like Co and Sa +1 and Sh and NR -2. This has wasted me a lot of time and it is not good for sales if a P&S shooter cannot get top results straight out of the box.

-  iA Plus did not refuse to use higher than 400 ISO and did not let me use 1/6 sec exposure and did allow me to set Min Shutter Speed (and they say that this is the best iA on the market? Omigod!)

Does anyone at Panasonic read this Forum? For me, if I were Top Camera Dog at Panasonic, it would be compulsory and compulsive reading.

Mike

Mike

Yup!

To ALL of that.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I know this is preaching to the converted but if this thread and others like it keep getting bumped back up the forum list

maybe one day, someone, somewhere, from the bowels of Panasonic management, will be doing a google search and spot this.

And just maybe, that person might have the sort of inner fortitude and zeal to say

"Holy shlt, you mean we haven't addressed this already? And we don't have a presence on this massive forum? This has to be affecting our sales! Plus these people have some great ideas! Holy shlt!!!"

And have the authority, position, influence or contacts to actually tangibly really really REALLY get something done.

Greg

Right, cameras are too small a business for Google to get into, except for the camera that comes inside the smartphone.

Very interesting to get the historical perspective on image quality. Though my guess is it's not that image quality was not important. My guess it had more to do with the price point as well as the fact that you're never going to have a mass market consumer product where people need to learn how to stack RAW files in PP and stuff like that. Those are things enthusiast do, but enthusiasts do not buy tens of millions of cameras. Only consumers in the mass market do that.

Agreed that a lot of people have DSLRs and bridges today still, but how representative of the mass market is that? Maybe those are all people with 15 posts in their dpreview accounts, and they're on an nyc trip so they can break out their new enthusiast camera.

The mass market that I read about is all the new young would-be buyers who are posting fuzzy low res motion blurred shots of themselves standing in front of the bathroom mirror to facebook. In the past they would have bought a cheap compact, but why bother now that they can use their iphone.

True, though as you mentioned compact cameras have been around since Kodak Instamatics. Even compact buyers upgrade their cameras (or we'd all still have Instamatics). And from what I have read, the improvement curve for larger cameras has slowed, while compact cameras have really rapidly improved even in the last few years. So the reasons to upgrade and replace are there, in terms of IQ.

Maybe this has to do with a failed mass market consumer strategy on the part of camera manufacturers. Because I do see people rushing out to buy every new model of iPhone that comes out. And enthusiasts still rush out to buy every new model (like the LX7 and RX100).

Read some camera manufacturer reports. This new sector is cannibalizing the small compact P&S market. So in that sense yes it is replacing a sector. The small compact sector. Not the upper end of the market but the bottom end of the market. It may not be visible to us because people still have cameras. But maybe those pocket cameras are older models that would have been replaced now if not for smartphones.

--
Ted
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tedchang/?src=dpreview-sig
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tedchang/?src=dpreview-sig
http://www.fluidr.com/photos/tedchang/?src=dpreview-sig

google is making a camera. they do have interest. the google glasses

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/22/sergey-brin-google-glasses-new-york-subway_n_2526475.html

In 20 years from now the current generation will realize they have very few family photos that they can share with their grandchildren.  Either they were never saved from the phone, lost when their hard drive crashed, deleted accidently or by a computer virus, or of such poor quality that they cannot be printed larger than the size of a phone screen.  Some of this applies to digital cameras too as I suspect many family photo albums are just sitting on a hard drive with no backup.  10 years ago a former boss of mine in the IT sector loss 2 years of baby photos due to a virus.  Let's just say his wife wasn't very happy.

In many ways I feel our parents have a better record when it came to capturing the moment and saving it.  Film forced you to think about the photo you took since every one cost you money and then you printed them soon afterwards.  Digital cameras have encouraged us to be lazy and phones have taken it a step further.  I don't know of anyone who actually downloads the photos off of their phone card. They usually just e-mail/post them which is reduced from the original size.  Then they delete it from their phone.

These things always go in cycles.  The trend with phones used be smaller and smaller, until the screens started to get bigger.  Now they are getting bigger every year with 6" screens the next jump.  Maybe min-tablets and phones will merge.  And the larger screen phones will also have the better built-in cameras.  All of a sudden by RX100 doesn't look that big, just thicker.

At some point there will be a leveling out of the use of basics phones for pictures.  This could mean a separate camera or much improved in-phone cameras.  And by better camera I mean better firmware.  The cameras in most phones are just an afterthought.  They have poor JPEG rendering, unreliable WB, slow AF, poor video quality etc.  There is more to a camera than just a larger sensor.  I am actually suprised that Sony hasn't taken the lead here considering their involvement in both phones and cameras.

I completely agree with this. I've wasted a ton of time trying to make this camera do what I want without fuss.  We all have - separately.  I've backed off and accept its limitations as part of the overall compromise.

So as far as Panasonic engineering/marketing goes, they have done little or nothing to help the user quickly understand where the sweet spots are on the FZ200.  They know - they built it. But it must be a secret "left to the reader".

I love the camera.  I love the flexibility.  I love the lens.  But I don't love the software and the lack of guidance and insight from Panasonic about how the darned thing is actually set up and how each of the various modes (ex. IA, i* modes) ACTUALLY works and how it ACTUALLY affects the IQ.  I've read the manual end to end.  It's almost like the engineers just threw it together and then said to the customer: "here's the stuff, we think it's cool, but you figure it out", esp on JPG outputs.  I see these modes as tools for the user to apply, but frankly, we've had to reverse-engineer some of them to determine what they do!

It should be much simpler to get to success.

Where is that Rev 2.0 firmware??

--
Andy, who will only shoot RAW with his FZ200

I think you and Sherm and Rudy deserve a mention too Mike. Sheesh we need a club lol!

Greg

SHood and Andy:

Some interesting points and reflections. So if Panasonic could make ONE change, it would be to issue regular firmware updates. Sure, people might upgrade less often, but wouldn't loyalty shoot through the roof?

I wonder why they don't. As in what's stopping them?

Thanks Greg, we all had a go, and the nice thing is that it was, and is, co-operative not competitive.

Mike