Veteran XP1 User Now Venting

Started Feb 11, 2013 | Discussions
designdog
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Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
Feb 11, 2013

Following the wonderful experience of the X100, where I essentially gave up on my 7D and its lenses, I got the XP1 in November, along with the Fuji primes. What a camera! Great feel (to me), great lenses, and great images. Even the AF and other issues were worked out with the firmware updates, to the extent that it is now almost perfect.

Not quite. I am at a point where I have just about had it with the Fuji/Adobe issue. I know, I know, there are alternatives, workarounds, etc. But come on. I have spent around $3000 for a system that is still not in the mainstream, at least with Adobe.

Here is what I want to do:

  • shoot in raw
  • import to Lightroom, with recognized camera and lens profiles
  • process in raw
  • use lens profiles
  • use Lightroom presets, such as VSCO, NIK, etc.
  • swap out to Photoshop (smart object) make edits, return to LR with edits intact, but original raw file untouched
  • export, print, publish from Lightroom.
In other words, what I did with my 7D, what I can do with my X100, my wife's RX100, and my D700.

Yes, there is CaptureOne (for another $300) etc, but you are still saving to a tiff file, and not getting the most out of LR/Photoshop. Forget jpegs.

The D700 I just acquired due to my happy experiences with Nikon MF lenses on the XP1. The XP1, and its 3 primes, are languishing on the shelf.

I am not about to revert to shooting jpegs. I will sell the XP1 (gasp!) before that happens.

Maybe this venting should go to Adobe, but it seems to me that Fuji has more to lose in this situation. They now have 3 cameras with this sensor, and they can't get the industry leader to work with them? Come on.

For many, the X100s will be a landmark camera. All of the neat stuff from the original X100, the wonderful image quality from the XP1, plus many new features. A bomb unless Fuji gets Adobe squared away.

I am going to hold back until Spring on this. The XP1 is out of service now, and if the issue is not resolved by then, it is out of my life as well. Hope that does not happen. I really like the camera, the lenses, etc. But I have had enough, for now...

 designdog's gear list:designdog's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24mm f/1.4G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 35mm f/1.4G +4 more
Canon EOS 7D Fujifilm FinePix X100 Fujifilm X100S Nikon D700 Sony RX100
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Lyle From Canada
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

Call adobe and vent. Fuji has supplied adobe with everything they need to fix this.

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Sony a77 & NEX7 - sigma 30/1.4 - sigma 85/1.4 - sigma 8-16 - sigma 17-50/2.8 - sigma 70-200/2.8 - extension tubes - HVL42 (3) -HVL58 - 16 pancake + fisheye adapter, fuji x10 compact
http://photogenykstudios.blogspot.com/

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Vic Chapman
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

Didn't you forget to stamp your foot?

I know how you feel but all Fuji can do is assist the Adobe guys which I understand they are doing. Adobe won't care if Fuji loses sales or upsets customers though.

I'm working with Silkypix and CS5 as best I can.

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nixda
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

designdog wrote:

Following the wonderful experience of the X100, where I essentially gave up on my 7D and its lenses, I got the XP1 in November, along with the Fuji primes. What a camera! Great feel (to me), great lenses, and great images. Even the AF and other issues were worked out with the firmware updates, to the extent that it is now almost perfect.

Not quite. I am at a point where I have just about had it with the Fuji/Adobe issue. I know, I know, there are alternatives, workarounds, etc. But come on. I have spent around $3000 for a system that is still not in the mainstream, at least with Adobe.

Here is what I want to do:

  • shoot in raw
  • import to Lightroom, with recognized camera and lens profiles
  • process in raw
  • use lens profiles
  • use Lightroom presets, such as VSCO, NIK, etc.
  • swap out to Photoshop (smart object) make edits, return to LR with edits intact, but original raw file untouched
  • export, print, publish from Lightroom.
In other words, what I did with my 7D, what I can do with my X100, my wife's RX100, and my D700.

Yes, there is CaptureOne (for another $300) etc, but you are still saving to a tiff file, and not getting the most out of LR/Photoshop. Forget jpegs.

I am not sure I understand what you mean. What is it that you want to get out of PS that you can't get by going through C1 first? After all, you need to go through ACR first to get your images into PS. That should be fairly equivalent for final image touchup.

The D700 I just acquired due to my happy experiences with Nikon MF lenses on the XP1. The XP1, and its 3 primes, are languishing on the shelf.

I am not about to revert to shooting jpegs. I will sell the XP1 (gasp!) before that happens.

Maybe this venting should go to Adobe, but it seems to me that Fuji has more to lose in this situation. They now have 3 cameras with this sensor, and they can't get the industry leader to work with them? Come on.

Indeed, you should vent your anger with Adobe, but you should also let Fuji know about it. They can still prod Adobe, Apple, etc. and perhaps make it easier for them to support the X-Trans, whatever 'making it easier' entails.

For many, the X100s will be a landmark camera. All of the neat stuff from the original X100, the wonderful image quality from the XP1, plus many new features. A bomb unless Fuji gets Adobe squared away.

I am going to hold back until Spring on this. The XP1 is out of service now, and if the issue is not resolved by then, it is out of my life as well. Hope that does not happen. I really like the camera, the lenses, etc. But I have had enough, for now...

It would be interesting to find out how many people put their workflow above equipment. Given that any decent camera system nowadays can be used to take decent pictures that will satisfy most situations, my question is: has software become more important than hardware? I know for many people it has, but I'd be interested in finding out for how many, and whether that fraction is growing or shrinking.

 nixda's gear list:nixda's gear list
Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm XF 14mm F2.8 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8
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Imagefoundry
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

I think you should sell it asap - it's clearly causing you a great deal of anguish and suffering.

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designdog
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to Vic Chapman, Feb 11, 2013

Actually I have written to Adobe, and have spoken to my contacts there (I am a beta tester.) Adobe can be stubborn, intractable, and a royal pain. (Kind of like Apple.)

Unfortunately, there is little incentive for Adobe to do much here. The x trans has a minor market share, and PhaseOne is not exactly breathing down Adobe's back. The way this gets done, in my experience, is that the guy that most benefits from the work gets the skids greased, camps out in the other guy's offices, and, in general helps out and cajoles the process through completion.

That guy is Fuji. Sending a pile of data may be helpful if there was a huge incentive to pull this thing along, but there is not. Just look here, at the Canon, Nikon, and Sony activity vs everything else. In short, Adobe could care less.

Fuji has got to get this fixed. SilkyPix is not the answer. At some point the novelty factor, the "Leica look" is going to wear off. And for many, like for me, it just wont be worth the hassle...

 designdog's gear list:designdog's gear list
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Al Valentino
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

I understand how you feel. I asked fuji reps directly about this last October at a show in New York that I went to so 8 could play with the camera. Was told that were working with adobe. Recents reports from fuji indicate fuji gave adobe the secrets to X-trans but had nothing optimistic to add, just, '...the balls in their court'. when i read that i gave up hope for 2013.

I am still shooting jpegs with mine but suspect soon I will learn RFC and use that with CS6. The only thing adobe seems good at is highlight and shadow recovery.

 Al Valentino's gear list:Al Valentino's gear list
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itmelo
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

C1 can be an excellent investment to replace LR as your image manager, but definitely too expensive as a simple raw converter.

Look, if you are aware of all the other workflow options available at the moment out there and none meets your needs, and you are using your D700 a lot more and happily than the X-Pro maybe selling the Fuji system is the best outcome for now. You can always get the latest Fuji system when the raw conversion has been resolved satisfactorily for your own needs and wants. I believe it's just a matter of time, but no one really knows. Meanwhile, it's not like you don't have any other cameras (D700, 7D, RX100, X100, etc).

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designdog
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to nixda, Feb 11, 2013

nixda wrote:

I am not sure I understand what you mean. What is it that you want to get out of PS that you can't get by going through C1 first? After all, you need to go through ACR first to get your images into PS. That should be fairly equivalent for final image touchup.

When you use C1, or any other raw processor except LR and PS, you must save the file to a jpeg or tiff before moving to Photoshop. You can no longer edit it as a raw file. Say you did this or that edit in PS, and you wanted to readjust the white balance, or the tone. If you brought the raw file into Photoshop from ACR you could do that. Also, as a smart object from Lightroom.

With the tiff/jpeg from C1, you are stuck. Also, many Lightroom presets work specifically with raw files. They use camera profiles (VSCO) and Lightroom/PS uses lens and camera profiles in the edit.

Adobe did a good job with the X100 raw files. They even have lens profiles for the camera and the wide lens adapter. It all stopped when Fuji whent to the X Trans. (I think the in camera processing might do the same thing for the Fuji x lenses, but I am not sure if this works on raw files.)

It would be interesting to find out how many people put their workflow above equipment. Given that any decent camera system nowadays can be used to take decent pictures that will satisfy most situations, my question is: has software become more important than hardware? I know for many people it has, but I'd be interested in finding out for how many, and whether that fraction is growing or shrinking.

For me, this is not a case of workflow above equipment. I certainly enjoy my camera equipment. I also enjoy the process of selecting, processing, and publishing images. One is not more important than the other, but one need not subjugate the other.

Finally, to the other posters: let's lay off the snide and critical remarks. I am just expressing my frustration here and it does not have to get personal. I think I am not alone in this regard. If anyone has some constructive comments (not "stamp your foot" of "sell your camera" very creative and helpful to the forum) I am happy to dialogue...

 designdog's gear list:designdog's gear list
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itmelo
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

Yes, with C1 when you want to edit an imported image with an external editor such as PS you have to export the image in an acceptable format, have the external editor open the exported file from that location, and then save the final image and re-import it into C1. A royal PIA. Both LR and Aperture as image managers are way more convenient.

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Apsphoto
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

Actually the lens corrections are stored in the exif and Adobe does use them, as stated by Eric Chan the man behind the raw conversions. That is why you do not see lens profiles, they are part of the raw file. Your best place to vent really is Adobe, the more people that complain the more likely they will support it better. Adobe is not willing to do anything that requires a lot of work unless customer want it. C1 integrates well with lightroom, I do my asset management in Lightroom, import to C1 edit, transfer tifs back to Lightroom. Captureone has  a 60 free trial. To me the final image is the important part, how it gets there I will use whatever tools I can use to produce that final image. Adobe and Lightroom is nice, but it is not the only tool in the shed, results are what matters.

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Alan Smallbone
Orange county, CA

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samhain
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

I vented in DPR's x100s announcement comments. Someone chimed in that full support was coming later this year. How they know that, I do not know. But they were very 'matter of fact' about it, with an exact date(I think it was sept?).
Hopefully they're info is correct. I won't buy any x trans camera until adobe offers full support.
It's nice that capture one is supporting it, but I'm not spending $300 for a raw converter, nor am I interested in abandoning Lightroom & re-learning a new program/workflow.
Tbh, the whole situation is rediculous & I'm pretty much over it. Adobe should be embracing new/different sensors, not shunning them. It's almost seems as if there's an alterior motive...

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atone2
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

designdog wrote:

Following the wonderful experience of the X100, where I essentially gave up on my 7D and its lenses, I got the XP1 in November, along with the Fuji primes. What a camera! Great feel (to me), great lenses, and great images. Even the AF and other issues were worked out with the firmware updates, to the extent that it is now almost perfect.

Not quite. I am at a point where I have just about had it with the Fuji/Adobe issue. I know, I know, there are alternatives, workarounds, etc. But come on. I have spent around $3000 for a system that is still not in the mainstream, at least with Adobe.

Here is what I want to do:

  • shoot in raw
  • import to Lightroom, with recognized camera and lens profiles
  • process in raw
  • use lens profiles
  • use Lightroom presets, such as VSCO, NIK, etc.
  • swap out to Photoshop (smart object) make edits, return to LR with edits intact, but original raw file untouched
  • export, print, publish from Lightroom.
In other words, what I did with my 7D, what I can do with my X100, my wife's RX100, and my D700.

Yes, there is CaptureOne (for another $300) etc, but you are still saving to a tiff file, and not getting the most out of LR/Photoshop. Forget jpegs.

The D700 I just acquired due to my happy experiences with Nikon MF lenses on the XP1. The XP1, and its 3 primes, are languishing on the shelf.

I am not about to revert to shooting jpegs. I will sell the XP1 (gasp!) before that happens.

Maybe this venting should go to Adobe, but it seems to me that Fuji has more to lose in this situation. They now have 3 cameras with this sensor, and they can't get the industry leader to work with them? Come on.

For many, the X100s will be a landmark camera. All of the neat stuff from the original X100, the wonderful image quality from the XP1, plus many new features. A bomb unless Fuji gets Adobe squared away.

I am going to hold back until Spring on this. The XP1 is out of service now, and if the issue is not resolved by then, it is out of my life as well. Hope that does not happen. I really like the camera, the lenses, etc. But I have had enough, for now...

I´ve already sold my X-E1 because of the X-trans sensor issue. If Adobe can´t give better X-trans support I hope Fuji stops to make it. I´m sure they can come up with some other good stuff based on a Sony sensor... The X-E1 with the original X100 sensor would have been perfect for me!

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Trevor G
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

designdog wrote:

Fuji has got to get this fixed. SilkyPix is not the answer.

Silkypix could be the answer for you.

You could try it - others have and are finding it quite manageable.

I don't get paid for saying this. My reward is seeing threads like this one

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3381234

even though I probably had nothing to do with it.

If you spent the same amount of time learning and practising Silkypix as you spent in this thread (about 30 to 40 minutes) you would be well on the way.

Have you seen the basic tutorial?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/41252389

Or something more advanced, with step by step instructions and pictures?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3183091

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3232050

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Trevor G
Silkypix tutorials at: http://photo.computerwyse.com

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nixda
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

designdog wrote:

nixda wrote:

I am not sure I understand what you mean. What is it that you want to get out of PS that you can't get by going through C1 first? After all, you need to go through ACR first to get your images into PS. That should be fairly equivalent for final image touchup.

When you use C1, or any other raw processor except LR and PS, you must save the file to a jpeg or tiff before moving to Photoshop. You can no longer edit it as a raw file. Say you did this or that edit in PS, and you wanted to readjust the white balance, or the tone. If you brought the raw file into Photoshop from ACR you could do that. Also, as a smart object from Lightroom.

With the tiff/jpeg from C1, you are stuck. Also, many Lightroom presets work specifically with raw files. They use camera profiles (VSCO) and Lightroom/PS uses lens and camera profiles in the edit.

I understand that TIFFs have a lot of parameters baked into them, but if you wanted to adjust white balance you'd have to go back to the RAW processor in any case. Either you go back to ACR or to C1. PS isn't a RAW processor, and neither is LR. It might not be quite so convenient to have to get out of PS, go to C1 and back to PS again, but it's not that bad either. Obviously, though, it's a deal breaker to you, and that's totally legitimate.

A potential alternative route is to use AccuRAW and work with linear DNG files. They would contain only demosaiced data and open in ACR where you can do the usual adjustments, then go to PS and iteratively hone your image between ACR and PS.

Adobe did a good job with the X100 raw files. They even have lens profiles for the camera and the wide lens adapter. It all stopped when Fuji whent to the X Trans. (I think the in camera processing might do the same thing for the Fuji x lenses, but I am not sure if this works on raw files.)

It would be interesting to find out how many people put their workflow above equipment. Given that any decent camera system nowadays can be used to take decent pictures that will satisfy most situations, my question is: has software become more important than hardware? I know for many people it has, but I'd be interested in finding out for how many, and whether that fraction is growing or shrinking.

For me, this is not a case of workflow above equipment. I certainly enjoy my camera equipment. I also enjoy the process of selecting, processing, and publishing images. One is not more important than the other, but one need not subjugate the other.

Well, if you are willing to give up your equipment, rather than your software, then your software seems to be more important than your equipment.

 nixda's gear list:nixda's gear list
Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm XF 14mm F2.8 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8
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Lyle From Canada
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

Again, not fujis problem. Their sensor works perfectly with their software, simple as that. Short of breaking intoadobe and doind the work fr them there is little else they can do. This is an adobe problem no one elses.

designdog wrote:

Actually I have written to Adobe, and have spoken to my contacts there (I am a beta tester.) Adobe can be stubborn, intractable, and a royal pain. (Kind of like Apple.)

Unfortunately, there is little incentive for Adobe to do much here. The x trans has a minor market share, and PhaseOne is not exactly breathing down Adobe's back. The way this gets done, in my experience, is that the guy that most benefits from the work gets the skids greased, camps out in the other guy's offices, and, in general helps out and cajoles the process through completion.

That guy is Fuji. Sending a pile of data may be helpful if there was a huge incentive to pull this thing along, but there is not. Just look here, at the Canon, Nikon, and Sony activity vs everything else. In short, Adobe could care less.

Fuji has got to get this fixed. SilkyPix is not the answer. At some point the novelty factor, the "Leica look" is going to wear off. And for many, like for me, it just wont be worth the hassle...

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Sony a77 & NEX7 - sigma 30/1.4 - sigma 85/1.4 - sigma 8-16 - sigma 17-50/2.8 - sigma 70-200/2.8 - extension tubes - HVL42 (3) -HVL58 - 16 pancake + fisheye adapter, fuji x10 compact
http://photogenykstudios.blogspot.com/

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Zardoz
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to Lyle From Canada, Feb 11, 2013

Lyle From Canada wrote:

Again, not fujis problem. Their sensor works perfectly with their software, simple as that. Short of breaking intoadobe and doind the work fr them there is little else they can do. This is an adobe problem no one elses.

That's not the only option.  Fuji could, for example, offer a financial incentive to Adobe.  And/or offer engineering talent to assist.  Both of these are common in the software world.

Besides, it ​is​ Fuji's problem too.  As long as support for their unusual raw format is poor, it will garner bad publicity and affect sales.

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Ariston
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

designdog wrote:

nixda wrote:

I am not sure I understand what you mean. What is it that you want to get out of PS that you can't get by going through C1 first? After all, you need to go through ACR first to get your images into PS. That should be fairly equivalent for final image touchup.

When you use C1, or any other raw processor except LR and PS, you must save the file to a jpeg or tiff before moving to Photoshop. You can no longer edit it as a raw file. Say you did this or that edit in PS, and you wanted to readjust the white balance, or the tone. If you brought the raw file into Photoshop from ACR you could do that. Also, as a smart object from Lightroom.

With the tiff/jpeg from C1, you are stuck. Also, many Lightroom presets work specifically with raw files. They use camera profiles (VSCO) and Lightroom/PS uses lens and camera profiles in the edit.

Adobe did a good job with the X100 raw files. They even have lens profiles for the camera and the wide lens adapter. It all stopped when Fuji whent to the X Trans. (I think the in camera processing might do the same thing for the Fuji x lenses, but I am not sure if this works on raw files.)

It would be interesting to find out how many people put their workflow above equipment. Given that any decent camera system nowadays can be used to take decent pictures that will satisfy most situations, my question is: has software become more important than hardware? I know for many people it has, but I'd be interested in finding out for how many, and whether that fraction is growing or shrinking.

For me, this is not a case of workflow above equipment. I certainly enjoy my camera equipment. I also enjoy the process of selecting, processing, and publishing images. One is not more important than the other, but one need not subjugate the other.

Finally, to the other posters: let's lay off the snide and critical remarks. I am just expressing my frustration here and it does not have to get personal. I think I am not alone in this regard. If anyone has some constructive comments (not "stamp your foot" of "sell your camera" very creative and helpful to the forum) I am happy to dialogue...

I am in the exact same boat as you are. like you, I'm pretty much use my entire workflow on Adobe softwares with all the nooks and crannies that comes with it. I love it. with the Fuji, not so much, but I manage to live with it with the workarounds. being no stranger to C1, I have no problem using the software although it can be complicated and the learning curve can be brutal. of course, you lose some of those cool stuff that comes with the Adobe software. but can still be quite useful in some way. just need to learn them. if you hate learning, then it could be a problem. in my case, it's not.  software investments can be costly, I expected it. if I can buy or spent over a $1,000 worth of camera bodies and lenses, why can't I spent for a one time investment of $300 or less on PP softwares.

anyway, you'd be surprised how easy it is to use SilkyPix (again, I'm no stranger to this engine). it is very competent and can give really nice results better than Adobe's for X-trans.  anyway, it's been ages since I have used ACDSee Pro and I'm not sure if they support X-trans. like the SilkyPix, it's also one of the easy to understand and use pp softwares out there. it also gives nice results.

as I have contemplated on this matter with regards to X-trans with all the complaints regarding the support, I have learned to live and be happy with it. the main reason why I got an X-trans system is because of the CLEAN LOWLIGHT images I can get immediately with the camera with less processing work and amazing DR. I have grown to appreciate and love jpegs as is once again. and I love Fuji color. so it makes no sense to buy the Fuji system if you wanted images to look similar to that of other systems. fine tuning texture and detail sharpening is the only thing that is worth working on raw since the results are pretty much cooked or handed to you already. now it's up to you if these matters to you more or not. for me, they do. that is why I would continue to invest on Fuji.

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Ariston
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to Ariston, Feb 11, 2013

one other thing, if Adobe is too stubborn or lazy to do their job, Fuji should seriously consider other engines to work with their files exclusively or make their own and keep most of the profit for themselves. that should wake up Adobe from it's lazy state.

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Asylum Photo
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Re: Veteran XP1 User Now Venting
In reply to designdog, Feb 11, 2013

Sell it and move on to another CSC. There's a lot of quality choices out there, no reason to let your current gear upset you.

That being said, I find for 99% of what I do, JPEG or ACR is more than adequate. It's rare that I need to process a raw file in RPP.

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 Asylum Photo's gear list:Asylum Photo's gear list
Fujifilm X-E2 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 60mm F2.4 R Macro Fujifilm XF 14mm F2.8 R Fujifilm XF 23mm F1.4 R +2 more
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