X100 or wait for X100s?

Started Feb 11, 2013 | Discussions
misterpepper
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Re: Return policy works fine for Amazom
In reply to Joel Stern, Feb 18, 2013

The 24% is before the other costs of doing business (including the "free rental" program) are factored in. The only thing that keeps them afloat is the massive amount of volume they do.

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David V
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Re: Return policy works fine for Amazom
In reply to misterpepper, Feb 18, 2013

misterpepper wrote:

The 24% is before the other costs of doing business (including the "free rental" program) are factored in. The only thing that keeps them afloat is the massive amount of volume they do.

You are absolutely clue free, and just won't quit.  If this is what makes you feel good, then enjoy yourself.

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misterpepper
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Re: Return policy works fine for Amazom
In reply to David V, Feb 18, 2013

I don't understand why you are being so defensive. We both agree Amazon loses money on returns. You feel justified in using their return policy to your advantage, and you are well within your right to do so. I choose not to, even though there is no specific rule that says I shouldn't. All I've tried to do is to point out that even though it is allowed within the rules of Amazon, and even though Amazon is aware and plans for it to happen, it still hurts their bottom line.

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TThorne
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Re: Return policy works fine for Amazom
In reply to misterpepper, Feb 18, 2013

misterpepper wrote:

I don't understand why you are being so defensive. We both agree Amazon loses money on returns. You feel justified in using their return policy to your advantage, and you are well within your right to do so. I choose not to, even though there is no specific rule that says I shouldn't. All I've tried to do is to point out that even though it is allowed within the rules of Amazon, and even though Amazon is aware and plans for it to happen, it still hurts their bottom line.

That's actually not true. If more people make more purchases, turning their trust and loyalty to Amazon for a multitude of their needs, and the return policy and overall customer service plays a role in those decisions (it does), then it as arguable that the policy yields an overall positive affect on their bottom line.

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mbb101
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Re: Return policy works fine for Amazom
In reply to misterpepper, Feb 18, 2013

No that's not what you said. You said that it was theft. That's a very serious act of dishonesty which has criminal consequences. As a return is with the consent of Amazon then it cannot be dishonest even where it may be unethical. There can  be no theft by making a return. It's simply absurd.

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Austin101
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Amazon will ban you
In reply to TThorne, Feb 18, 2013

I purchased just over £17k of photo gear via Amazon UK over a 16 month period.

7k of which was returned through either faulty gear or poor performance however 2.7k of that returned was through no fault of my own but due to the courier returning the item because I wasn't at home when they tried to delivery and didn't leave a card, also some couriers return the item directly to Amazon and don't try to redeliver, once returned to Amazon they just do a refund and don't contact you to redeliver.

because of the above Amazon closed my account.

I opened a new account a few days later using the same name/address/card details and still continue to purchase from them.

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TThorne
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Re: Amazon will ban you
In reply to Austin101, Feb 18, 2013

Austin101 wrote:

I purchased just over £17k of photo gear via Amazon UK over a 16 month period.

7k of which was returned through either faulty gear or poor performance however 2.7k of that returned was through no fault of my own but due to the courier returning the item because I wasn't at home when they tried to delivery and didn't leave a card, also some couriers return the item directly to Amazon and don't try to redeliver, once returned to Amazon they just do a refund and don't contact you to redeliver.

because of the above Amazon closed my account.

I opened a new account a few days later using the same name/address/card details and still continue to purchase from them.

That is a first I have heard. I wonder if this is world wide or if it changes from region to region.

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David V
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Re: Return policy works fine for Amazom
In reply to TThorne, Feb 18, 2013

TThorne wrote:

misterpepper wrote:

I don't understand why you are being so defensive. We both agree Amazon loses money on returns. You feel justified in using their return policy to your advantage, and you are well within your right to do so. I choose not to, even though there is no specific rule that says I shouldn't. All I've tried to do is to point out that even though it is allowed within the rules of Amazon, and even though Amazon is aware and plans for it to happen, it still hurts their bottom line.

That's actually not true. If more people make more purchases, turning their trust and loyalty to Amazon for a multitude of their needs, and the return policy and overall customer service plays a role in those decisions (it does), then it as arguable that the policy yields an overall positive affect on their bottom line.

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Yes....It just boggles the mind that he either don't understand this simple and common principle of sales and marketing not matter how many times it has been explained in this thread.

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David V
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Re: Return policy works fine for Amazom
In reply to mbb101, Feb 18, 2013

mbb101 wrote:

No that's not what you said. You said that it was theft. That's a very serious act of dishonesty which has criminal consequences. As a return is with the consent of Amazon then it cannot be dishonest even where it may be unethical. There can be no theft by making a return. It's simply absurd.

Thank you! He starts off with a self righteous post accusing people who returned items to Amazon of theft.  Then he failed (or refused) to understand how Amazon's policy positively affects their bottom line by increasing sales through brand loyalty that they might not have otherwise realized.   Then he continues to post more passive aggressive nonsense and tries to play the victim when people respond negatively.

Any policy or rule can be exploited and the resulting actions can become unethical.  For the purpose of clarity I described my interaction with Amazon.  If those actions are viewed as unethical, then we will just agree to disagree.

I'm done with this thread, and I apologize to the OP for being part of the group that took it off course.

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stdavid
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Re: Return policy works fine for Amazom
In reply to Joel Stern, Feb 18, 2013

Joel Stern wrote:

David V wrote:

JoeRadza wrote:

David, I agree with you until you said that they realize a $5000 profit on a $15,000 sale. In any event, until they change their policies, you are free to do what works for you. Just remember, they can and do keep records. Many companies no longer accept returns from customers they consider "habitual" returners.

Do you not think they make 30-35% on much of the merchandise they sell? I would bet they do. Even if they make 20-25%, it still far outweighs the one item I may return that they take a $200 (or less) hit on.

I'm sure they keep records for habitual returners though I haven't heard of any corrective action policies surrounding that. For the record, I am not a habitual returner. In fact of all the merchandise I purchased from Amazon in 2012 I returned one thing. A Sigma 30mm lens for Sony NEX, so I think Amazon made out very well on me in the past year which included all my Fuji lenses and accessories for my X-E1 and tons of other non-photography related purchases.

Depending on item and price point they have to be making from 30-well over 50%.

Amazon operates on a very LOW profit margin No where near 30-50%

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2013/01/29/amazon-earnings-strong-sales-low-profits/

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Austin101
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Re: Amazon will ban you
In reply to TThorne, Feb 18, 2013

TThorne wrote:

Austin101 wrote:

I purchased just over £17k of photo gear via Amazon UK over a 16 month period.

7k of which was returned through either faulty gear or poor performance however 2.7k of that returned was through no fault of my own but due to the courier returning the item because I wasn't at home when they tried to delivery and didn't leave a card, also some couriers return the item directly to Amazon and don't try to redeliver, once returned to Amazon they just do a refund and don't contact you to redeliver.

because of the above Amazon closed my account.

I opened a new account a few days later using the same name/address/card details and still continue to purchase from them.

That is a first I have heard. I wonder if this is world wide or if it changes from region to region.

-- hide signature --

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. - Sir Winston Churchill

No idea but they did give me a warning prior to closing my account, places like Amazon have push out the local brick and mortar shops (which was inevitable) so they have to expect people will want to test items out if they can no longer walk in to a shop and handle them.

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cptrios
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Re: Amazon will ban you
In reply to Austin101, Feb 18, 2013

Austin101 wrote:

TThorne wrote:

Austin101 wrote:

I purchased just over £17k of photo gear via Amazon UK over a 16 month period.

7k of which was returned through either faulty gear or poor performance however 2.7k of that returned was through no fault of my own but due to the courier returning the item because I wasn't at home when they tried to delivery and didn't leave a card, also some couriers return the item directly to Amazon and don't try to redeliver, once returned to Amazon they just do a refund and don't contact you to redeliver.

because of the above Amazon closed my account.

I opened a new account a few days later using the same name/address/card details and still continue to purchase from them.

That is a first I have heard. I wonder if this is world wide or if it changes from region to region.

-- hide signature --

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. - Sir Winston Churchill

No idea but they did give me a warning prior to closing my account, places like Amazon have push out the local brick and mortar shops (which was inevitable) so they have to expect people will want to test items out if they can no longer walk in to a shop and handle them.

It's funny...I'm not exactly sure how badly Amazon has pushed out brick-and-mortar photography stores. Book stores, definitely, and a few others as well...but camera shops? Much tougher to tell. Most of the photo stores around me growing up made their money off of developing and related services, and any of those that didn't adapt to the digital world (many of them were too small to really make a go of that) died out quite a while ago. Then the slightly bigger ones that sold a lot of gear were crushed by places like Best Buy, who can afford much lower margins (including looser return policies) due to volume and therefore price out the little guys. Ignoring places like B&H, which was big already and adapted to the internet absolutely perfectly, the survivors are the shops that offer competitively-priced services that people still can't do at home easily (large-format printing, passport photos, etc) and/or have notably helpful and knowledgeable sales staff.

Basically, within a 30-minute drive from me, Best Buy is my only choice if I want to buy a camera from a real store. Which I'll never, ever do, nor will I ever tell anyone else to do either...because they have employees who generally (I'm sure there are exceptions) either know nothing about their camera gear whatsoever or have serious personal biases/specific sales motivations. The only thing I'll miss if Amazon kills Best Buy is the ability to hold a camera in my hands before I buy it. Which, sadly, is the only thing I miss about the photo stores around here that have closed down in recent years. I don't have enough disposable income to pay $50-100 more for something just to support a business!

Having said that, while Amazon is a big boy and can handle themselves just fine, buying something from them with the intention of returning it in a few days is pretty obnoxious.

Oh and back on topic...just go buy a used X100!

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misterpepper
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Re: Return policy works fine for Amazom
In reply to David V, Feb 18, 2013

David, I never accused you, or anybody of theft. You didn't even enter into the conversation until after I questioned what the difference "to Amazon" was whether they lost money due to returns or to theft (hint: both events detract from their bottom line the same). And I never questioned whether Amazon allowed returns of perfectly good products (they do) or whether their liberal return policy allows them to attract and retain more customers (it does). I've worked for and/or helped found 7 online companies, so I know a thing or two about doing business online. I've even watched one of them nearly driven into the ground by people test-driving our product, until we changed the return poilcy. What you think is free really isn't. We all pay more every time we shop Amazon to pay for the actions of you an people like you. Just pointing that out. Peace.

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JoeRadza
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Re: Return policy works fine for Amazom
In reply to misterpepper, Feb 18, 2013

misterpepper wrote:

David, I never accused you, or anybody of theft. You didn't even enter into the conversation until after I questioned what the difference "to Amazon" was whether they lost money due to returns or to theft (hint: both events detract from their bottom line the same). And I never questioned whether Amazon allowed returns of perfectly good products (they do) or whether their liberal return policy allows them to attract and retain more customers (it does). I've worked for and/or helped found 7 online companies, so I know a thing or two about doing business online. I've even watched one of them nearly driven into the ground by people test-driving our product, until we changed the return poilcy. What you think is free really isn't. We all pay more every time we shop Amazon to pay for the actions of you an people like you. Just pointing that out. Peace.

Misterpepper, I agree with you theoretically.  However, the business model of allowing returns for ANY reason is a well established internet practice. Check out Zappos, they do an excellent job and even encourage the practice we are debating. Any cost impacts the bottom line. But, some are a means to an end. Remember, companies detest advertising, and when they are going out of business, what is the first thing they do? Adverrtise the business is for sale. Don't be penny wise and dollar foolish.

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