If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??

Started Feb 9, 2013 | Discussions
DaveKaiPiper
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If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
Feb 9, 2013

I can understand why they don't have a FF camera, if people really want a high end Pentax, they have one of the worlds best cameras with the 645D.

Personally I really do think it is one of the best cameras out there on the market today and well worth the investment.

I have written much about this camera and love it to bits.  I would love to hear what other people think about this camera ?

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moving_comfort
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to DaveKaiPiper, Feb 9, 2013

Fantastic camera, but the body alone is around $9000, and the lenses are between $2000 and $10,000 each, IIRC, and there's no upgrade path from aps-c because it's a different mount. For most folks, budget is an issue

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EArenz
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to moving_comfort, Feb 9, 2013

I could sell my Lamborghini to buy one. Never mind, forgot I don't have a Lamborghini...

Ed

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Winder
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to DaveKaiPiper, Feb 9, 2013

DaveKaiPiper wrote:

I can understand why they don't have a FF camera, if people really want a high end Pentax, they have one of the worlds best cameras with the 645D.

Personally I really do think it is one of the best cameras out there on the market today and well worth the investment.

I have written much about this camera and love it to bits. I would love to hear what other people think about this camera ?

http://www.davekaipiper.co.uk/blog

Are you seriously asking this question?  In the USA there are 3 current 645 lenses available.  Europe has much more support for the 645 platform.

Full Frame cameras like the Nikon D800E are much more versatile, much less expensive, and much more portable.  The lens system is much larger.  The 3rd party support is much, much better.

Unless the 645D comes out at half the current price with a much better sensor it is not even close.  The 40MP CCD is only slightly bigger than the 36MP D800 sensor.  IF Pentax were to produce a true 645 size CMOS sensor in the 60+MP range then it might be a different story.

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CANIKONTAXIAN
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to EArenz, Feb 9, 2013

I waited from 2002 to 2008 for Pentax Full Frame.

Got my full frame needs met from Canon in 2008, then Nikon in 2009.

Wife & I both shoot so I buy Dslrs in pairs. Sharing lenses is fun, sharing cameras is not.

We shoot two 5DII & two D700.

I dropped less money on four brand new full frame dslrs than one 645D would have cost me back then $9995 & thesedays 645D is $8795.

Is the 645D yours or is it a loaner ?

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Qwntm
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to DaveKaiPiper, Feb 9, 2013

I've shot tens of thousands of images with the original Pentax 645 film cameras. No doubt a great camera system. The 645D is a BIG MISS on many fronts.

Too much capital investment for too short a lifespan with too little reward. In the digital world the "sweet spot" between IQ/mobility/cost is full frame. I am willing to go with the K-5 iis because it's (just) enough of a weight and size and cost savings to justify the SLIGHT decrease in IQ for my needs. The Pentax interface and handling are icing on the cake.

BUt the DREAM is still a K-5 style FF with all the K-5 attributes. Like what the MX was to the nasty big brick block cameras of 1976.

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baldeagle21b
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to DaveKaiPiper, Feb 9, 2013

Because the unspoken adjective is "cheap". They want a cheap Ff camera. For some reason they think Pentax can and should deliver a cheaper FF camera than the others. Particularly in the US the lessons of the K01 and Q are clear. Pentax "enthusiasts" won't buy a product until it is reduced to the breakeven point. New product development is driven by profits. Ever wonder why new product development at Pentax is at a snails pace relative the the others? No technical reason, the Pentax faithful allow so little profit that the R&D budget is miniscule. Same story with lenses. That's the name of that tune.

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Mr_Cynical
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to baldeagle21b, Feb 9, 2013

baldeagle21b wrote:

Because the unspoken adjective is "cheap". They want a cheap Ff camera. For some reason they think Pentax can and should deliver a cheaper FF camera than the others. Particularly in the US the lessons of the K01 and Q are clear. Pentax "enthusiasts" won't buy a product until it is reduced to the breakeven point. New product development is driven by profits. Ever wonder why new product development at Pentax is at a snails pace relative the the others? No technical reason, the Pentax faithful allow so little profit that the R&D budget is miniscule. Same story with lenses. That's the name of that tune.

Canon 50mm f1.8 - £81.34 / Pentax 50mm f1.8 - £219.00

Canon 85mm f1.8 - £299.00 / Pentax 77mm f1.8 - £829.00

The above are just a couple of examples but the same pattern is repeated across the range. Pentax's price problem is not down to unreasonable customers.

The reason the Q failed was that it offered compact camera IQ at entry level DSLR price. The K01 failed because it offered all the bulk and price of a midrange DSLR, but with several mirrorless downsides: no EVF (not even as an optional extra); using PDAF lenses with a CDAF system, etc.

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Unexpresivecanvas
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to DaveKaiPiper, Feb 9, 2013

You are kidding or just looking for attention, by this non-sense thread right?

Why don't you suggest to other forum members to buy a 'Phase One P65+' or you can suggest people here should buy a 'Seitz 6×17” Digital  Camera'? or if you want good video just buy "Red Epic"?

Thank you very much for a though-full contribution..

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MightyMike
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to baldeagle21b, Feb 9, 2013

I agree there are a lot of Pentaxians out there that are just cheap! Now if its priced out of my budget i don't complain i just don't buy cause i can't. I don't keep hoping for something new to be very cheap against all reason either.

The top complaints about Pentax stuff in no particular order

- Its too expensive

- Its too big (referring to some lenses, third party especially) I read a user review calling the Sigma 18-125 big and heavy... its one of the lightest smallest zoom lenses you can find! therefore another pentaxian with no grasp on reality. I've read hundreds of complaints about the size of what i consider average lens being too big and heavy, every time i read such a complaint i wonder if that person would ever dream of doing any telephoto work.

Other complaints are often for lenses or cameras like what the competition has without any thought to the cost of such items... how many times have i read the demand for a 200-400mm F4 weather sealed lens? plenty, of those demanding not one would pay what the Nikon people and soon the Canon people pay for such a lens.

Another complaint is people want lenses that are available from third party companies but they want a Pentax made one as they are first party brand snobs and won't dare by a third party item unless their life depended on it.

This all paints a picture of the general average pentaxian being...

Cheap! Complaining about cost.

Weak! Complaining about size and weight

Envious! the grass is always greener if you don't consider the consequences

Short Sighted! demanding what the other guys have without ever considering the reality of cost and size

and Brand Snobs! They poo-poo the third party offerings in many cases no matter how many times review say they are actually really good options. Sometimes doubling up on items on the market is just a waste for resources!

All traits that don't allow the company to market newer better items as the Pentaxian market will find some reason why they won't own the new item.

The babies in Pentax land better get it together, you can't defy the laws of physic or the laws of economy. In these ways you can't always have your cake and eat it too! Grow up, the other brands did, those who can afford something own it and those who can't either save up or just dream about it.

Now i'm not saying this is true of all Pentaxians but there sure are a lot of you out there who can't handle the realities of the items you envy or demand.

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Unexpresivecanvas
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to baldeagle21b, Feb 9, 2013

Probably some  part of the market wants a  cheap FF, priced at an unrealistically very low price, but probably the expectation of most of us is a good FF priced at a "reasonable price".

It's obvious that one part of the market  wants a FF from Pentax, so people can continue in their growth path for equipment and sensors. Other people are happy with the current lineup of products but at the same time they will be more comfortable knowing there is already a growth path from APS-C w/o thinking of the need to one day having have to buy a 645D as the only option to get into more advanced sensors.

On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with people wanting to get  better things at a lower prices. Has been a law of human behavior  since trade was developed: we want better for less. What's wrong with being economically efficient? Even large corporations with deep pockets strive daily for the efficiency equation.

The gap between APS-C and Medium-Format is to wide in the Pentax side and it deters a lot of potential Pentax buyers.  People that are not happy with Sony, Canon or Nikon don't move into Pentax because that gap. I know this from experience.

Also modern times are marked by the worst financial crisis since the big depression, which has affected the purchase capacity of very large segments of the population. It forces more of us to consider the best use for our hard earned money.

Also I believe that an important segment of the market  for Pentax in Europe and Americas is composed of baby boomers. It's not easy to make big investment decisions in something discretionary as a camera equipment when a lot of users live on fixed income that has been eroded by financial uncertainty.

What i am trying to signify here is that there is a more complex financial reality down here and using the 'cheap' adjective to describe people's financial realities may not resound very well when confronted with the daily reality of most of us.

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Nicols
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to MightyMike, Feb 9, 2013

Great description of human nature, subspecies "pentaxian" 

Cheers - Klaus

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Zvonimir Tosic
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In reply to DaveKaiPiper, Feb 9, 2013

DaveKaiPiper wrote:

I can understand why they don't have a FF camera, if people really want a high end Pentax, they have one of the worlds best cameras with the 645D.

People wait for FF Pentax camera because they want to use FF lenses they already have. 645 mount by Pentax was never so popular as the Pentax K-mount.

The number of K-mount lenses is measured in tens of millions.

And that's all.

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Raffwal
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to DaveKaiPiper, Feb 9, 2013

Wow - thanks! I didn't know my DFA, FA, M42 and Sigma lenses work with a medium format DSLR. But now this solves the problem. 

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Rod McD
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Re: the K01 and the Q
In reply to baldeagle21b, Feb 9, 2013

On the K01....... I don't think the K01 didn't sell well at its original price point because Pentax buyers are cheap.  It didn't sell well at that price point because of its feature set in comparison to the competition.  Price alone is NOT the barrier to premium mirror-less sales.

The APSC mirror-less success stories of 2012/13 appear to be the Fuji XE1 and Sony NEX6. (More so than the X-Pro1 and the NEX7 in their own brands). Both companies took excellent sensors, put them in a very small body with great features, added a state of the art built-in high grade EVF, and provided for some great lenses (whether native or adapted glass or both). The other success story is the OMD, and although it's MFT, it's much like the other two plus it's WR. None of these are cheap cameras. They were and still are all much dearer than than the K01.

I suspect the K01 failed because it was simply too big and had no EVF, despite the fact that it could take native K mount lenses, and the fact that it offered excellent IQ. Pentax relied on access to legacy glass as their selling point, and took a risk in the IQ per camera size and weight equation. It was significantly bigger and heavier than the competition in a business world touting small form as the chief benefit of mirror-less design. It was also controversial in looks - I've never seen a camera so polarise the members of this forum or others. Subjective? Yes, but important.

And on the Q........ Beautifully made camera body and great IQ extracted from the sensor size, but there lies the problem.  The market was taking a real interest in the larger sensor compacts like the Sony RX100, and going for a small sensor seems to me to have been the mistake.  They were competing with high end compacts that turn out some pretty good photographs in an all-in-one package.  The differentiator was just that the lenses were interchangeable.  If they'd made a 1" sensor ILC the size of the RX100 it might have sold very well.  And then branding the cheap end lenses with the tag "toy" seems to me to have been a terrible marketing decision.  What did it say about their intentions for the model?

Rod

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JohnBee
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to DaveKaiPiper, Feb 9, 2013

DaveKaiPiper wrote:

I can understand why they don't have a FF camera, if people really want a high end Pentax, they have one of the worlds best cameras with the 645D.

Personally I really do think it is one of the best cameras out there on the market today and well worth the investment.

I have written much about this camera and love it to bits. I would love to hear what other people think about this camera ?

I'd say the 645D is likely obscured by the following:

In these samples we have a $10K camera vs a $2800 camera. To which I'd add, the 10K camera has very limited lenses and support whereas the $2800 camera has a vast array of lenses and support/accessories. Not to mention the fact that the cheaper camera can literally run circles around the 10K camera in terms of system speed and function(buffer, write times, etc etc).

And so from this perspective, I'd say it would make no sense whatsoever for someone to throw themselves into a 645D kit when we have alternative such as these to choose from.

My two cents.

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baldeagle21b
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to Unexpresivecanvas, Feb 9, 2013

Thank you for your well reasoned response. You did better than I in mine. My issue is with those that demand product prices that are not in keeping with the long term financial well-being of the corporation. Self-centered selfishness at its worst. Now I'm done with my rant for this month.

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Dave
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to JohnBee, Feb 10, 2013

I've stated this in previous posts quite some time ago. I assuming you're referring to both the D800/e and 645D. If so, I owned both and have used both extensively. When two camera's appear in static web sized image shots, even at 100%, it's a far cry from examining both the images and the impact they make when printed to very sizable print sizes.

Each camera and system has it's advantages and disadvantages. The Pentax relies on many legacy lenses but oh how inexpensive many of these lenses are and almost an entire system and array of lenses can be purchased for the price of one-two Nikon top of the line lenses...which are required to get the same level of performance as some of the sub $500.00 legacy lenses.
Of course each system should be used in applications that best benefits use of each and that's why I use both. Specs and stagnant web images are but a fraction of what any system is capable of, image quality wise.

That's why the Leica S and S2 appear to have similar specs to the 645D but in actuality and in large format prints, I can say unabashedly, that the Leica and especially the lenses outperform the 645D...and I've compared both by shooting each side by side.

Too many arm chair quarterbacks. Pick up each, use each in a whole host of circumstances, make large prints of each...then a much better and well informed discussion can be made comparing the virtues of both on another more meaningful level.

If not, I bet future cell phones with 12-24mp, would run rings around any future 24MP Penatx DSLR and lenses and be a fraction of the cost....so it may be prudent to divest of all your lenses. and equipment now.
Oh by the way, I've also been shooting Pentax 35mm SLR's and DSLR's since 1975.

Dave

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Dave
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Re: P.S. (to post above)
In reply to Dave, Feb 10, 2013

In my post above I wrote>>>"If not, I bet future cell phones with 12-24mp, would run rings around any future 24MP Penatx DSLR and lenses and be a fraction of the cost....so it may be prudent to divest of all your lenses. and equipment now." <<<

In editing my original post, the smily face got lost...just to let those reading this know that this statement was said with "tongue and cheek".

*** Oh, I don't believe the Penatx 645D is meant to or can/should be a substitute for a FF 35mm DSLR.  Two different systems with two overlapping but different markets.

Dave

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JohnBee
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Re: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??
In reply to Dave, Feb 10, 2013

Dave wrote:

I've stated this in previous posts quite some time ago. I assuming you're referring to both the D800/e and 645D. If so, I owned both and have used both extensively. When two camera's appear in static web sized image shots, even at 100%, it's a far cry from examining both the images and the impact they make when printed to very sizable print sizes.
Each camera and system has it's advantages and disadvantages. The Pentax relies on many legacy lenses but oh how inexpensive many of these lenses are and almost an entire system and array of lenses can be purchased for the price of one-two Nikon top of the line lenses...which are required to get the same level of performance as some of the sub $500.00 legacy lenses.
Of course each system should be used in applications that best benefits use of each and that's why I use both. Specs and stagnant web images are but a fraction of what any system is capable of, image quality wise. That's why the Leica S and S2 appear to have similar specs to the 645D but in actuality and in large format prints, I can say unabashedly, that the Leica and especially the lenses outperform the 645D...and I've compared both by shooting each side by side.
Too many arm chair quarterbacks. Pick up each, use each in a whole host of circumstances, make large prints of each...then a well informed discussion can be made comparing the virtues of both.
If not, I bet future cell phones with 12-24mp, would run rings around any future 24MP Penatx DSLR and lenses and be a fraction of the cost....so it may be prudent to divest of all your lenses. and equipment now.
Oh by the way, I've also been shooting Pentax 35mm SLR's and DSLR's since 1975.
Dave

I'd say that's great for MF needs(large prints etc). Though I'd point-out that my post was in response to the thread title: If People want a Pentax FF so bad.. Go buy a 645d ??

And the answer is of course that it makes no sense whatsoever for anyone to invest in a 10K body with lenses when FF solutions such as the D800 are in our midst.

Having said that, I've printed 1:1 crops(RAW) from both the 645D and D800E and found no differences between the two in terms of spacial resolution, contrast, color etc. And so I'm thinking the D800E would suite most anyone longing for a FF camera at this particular time. To which I'd add, does the 645D hold any advantages? Probably... though I wasn't able to substantiate it in any of my own tests though I'm sure a regular MF shooter will found otherwise.

PS. there was a test performed several months ago where the D800E was put up against a Hasselblad H4D40 at which point the Hassi won on numerous points. However, what really stood out for me was how easily the D800 files could be adjusted to match the tonal range(skin tones) of the Hassi. Which was one of the harder driving points of the review. In any case, I'm not trying to derail this thread into some FF vs MF debate as I'm sure the implications run far deeper than I'd care to consider, though the fact that a $2800 can even enter the realm of a MF solution is sufficient for consideration. And so I guess there's that to consider.

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