rx100 the one to beat?

Started Feb 6, 2013 | Discussions
Undah
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rx100 the one to beat?
Feb 6, 2013

I'm itching for a new camera, a smaller one, a 'go anywhere' cam, for when I don't feel like taking the a57 and associated gear.

I've been looking everywhere for fast shutter response, excellent image quality, solid build quality, video with zoom and without zoom motor noise, and an excellent lens.  I'm interested in easy adjustments (external controls preferable) but can overlook the lack of this if the auto mode is solid.

I'm waiting for the Fuji x20 to come out.  I'm looking at the olympus XZ-2.  Even considering the Pentax MX-1.

But any way I look at it, the rx100 is the one to beat.  Is this really the case?  Anyone have the RX-100 and any of the above cams? (Ok, in the case of the Fuji, it would be x10 since the x20 is not out yet).

Any rumblings of an update to the RX100 coming out any time soon?

Fujifilm X10 Fujifilm X20 Pentax MX-1 Sony RX100 Sony SLT-A57
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B1ackhat
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Re: rx100 the one to beat?
In reply to Undah, Feb 6, 2013

In terms of sheer IQ and video, it's the one to beat.  There are other cams in its class with a smaller body, better JPEGs, more effective IS, or simply better value.  It all depends on what is most important to you.

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Stephen McDonald
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Re: RX100: The One to Beat?
In reply to B1ackhat, Feb 6, 2013

The Panasonic LX7 has produced many more good photos and videos that are online and it's less expensive. The Panasonic Forum has many polite, helpful and tolerant people, who give a big bonus to ownership of this model. Many of them really like the LX7, but don't seem obsessed with it. Its sensor is larger than those of most small cameras, but not so large that it puts CMOS  artifacts into its video, when shooting 60p. And Panasonic is known to provide firmware upgrades when needed, for its small cameras.

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chong4321
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Re: rx100 the one to beat?
In reply to Undah, Feb 6, 2013

If you value night shots (High ISO) shots. RX100 is the camera to beat.  so far LX7 does not hold a High ISO value close to the RX100.

100% zoom is also much much better because of larger sensor.

bounce flash is a definite plus.

size is also smaller.

manual focus is a joy to use in the RX100

good luck on your decision.

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Ray Sachs
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Great sensor and small - otherwise not so much..
In reply to Undah, Feb 6, 2013

Lens is OK but very slow as you move through the zoom range. I personally couldn't stand the UI and various controls. No reasonable  way to zone focus. But the AF is pretty good. And the sensor is a bit of a game changer. I personally would choose the X10 or LX7 over the RX100 after trying all three pretty extensively. i have other nice cameras to do the low light heavy lifting and picked the LX7 for a decent light walk around cam (although its lens is so fast it's actually pretty OK in low light). If I was looking for a compact as an only camera I'd go for the X10 (or coming X20). I'd only go for the RX100 if the smallest size is your highest priority.

Or if you shoot auto a lot and don't care about interacting with the camera. I gave mine to my wife who shoots in iAuto all the time and couldn't be happier with it.

-Ray
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Enir4
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Re: rx100 the one to beat?
In reply to Undah, Feb 6, 2013

DxO have a page I trust quite a bit about IQ. Take a look at http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en%E8%A1%B7%C3%83%C2%AF%C3%82%C2%BF%C3%82%C2%BD%C3%83%C2%AF%C3%82%C2%BF%C3%82%C2%BD%C3%83%C2%AF%C3%82%C2%BF%C3%82%C2%BD%E8%A1%B7%C3%83%C2%AF%C3%82%C2%BF%C3%82%C2%BD%C5%A1%E8%A1%B7%C3%83%C2%AF%C3%82%C2%BF%C3%82%C2%BD%C3%83%C2%AF%C3%82%C2%BF%C3%82%C2%BD%C5%A0/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/838%7C0/(brand)/Canon/(appareil2)/812%7C0/(brand2)/Sony/(appareil3)/740%7C0/(brand3)/Fujifilm

I had the Fuji X10, Panasonic LX5 and Canon S90 and G11. They are not in the same IQ class of the RX100, my current pocket camera. Rendering, sheer detail, gradations, are so much better, as expected when the sensor is 3 times bigger. On top of it, the RX100 is the smallest and fits in a shirt pocket.

Enrique

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theranman
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Re: rx100 the one to beat?
In reply to Enir4, Feb 6, 2013

I'd pick either the X20 or the successor to the RX100 (RX200?). This requires much patience.

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Enir4
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Re: rx100 the one to beat?
In reply to theranman, Feb 6, 2013

theranman wrote:

I'd pick either the X20 or the successor to the RX100 (RX200?). This requires much patience.

Waiting is against my principles.
Besides, I don't think that the much smaller sensor of the X20 can campete with the RX100.

Enrique

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Ray Sachs
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Re: rx100 the one to beat?
In reply to Enir4, Feb 6, 2013

Enir4 wrote:

theranman wrote:

I'd pick either the X20 or the successor to the RX100 (RX200?). This requires much patience.

Waiting is against my principles.
Besides, I don't think that the much smaller sensor of the X20 can campete with the RX100.

It probably won't beat it, but it may come close enough that with the much faster lens (except at the wide end), it may be a better package overall. I think the X10 already beats it overall. If the X20 is better than the X10, it wouldn't be a close call for me. It's true the RX100 sensor is the best in class by a notable margin, but there's a whole lot more to a camera than a sensor and I found the RX100 to fall very short in most other areas. The X10/20  is a good deal better overall and the LX7 is better yet (but with a far lesser sensor).

-Ray
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elliottnewcomb
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Re: rx100 the one to beat?
In reply to Enir4, Feb 6, 2013

It's a tough choice, essentially you need to clarify your priorities, rx100 was for me, love it:

rx100 is the only PANTS pocketable, others are JACKET pocketable if that counts for you. For me, the best camera is the one I always have with me.

Movies: Had Oly XZ-1, liked it very much, but, movies were awful, it could not focus, move it, could not focus, zoom it, could not focus, friends XZ-1 did the same thing, we returned them. rx100 movies are quite good, focus is good, sound is good

rx100  IQ is quite good, it does have a learning curve and I have needed some work with it to find what works for this and that. I don't use Auto, others seem to do well with that.

rx100 shallow depth of field is limited, compared to a larger sensor dslr; much better than smaller sensor p&s, but you need to be close to subject with background not too near.

rx100 flash is stronger than I read about, and bounce-able, and can adjust strength in-camera, I use it cut back most of the time.

rx100 28 mm ok, I miss my 24 mm occasionally, when I cannot back up enough.

rx100 optical zoom only 100 mm, but, has extended optical, and clear zoom which is quite good

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9701497431/albums/rx100-extended-optical-and-clear-zoom

Good luck deciding,

Elliott

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Liz Z.
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Re: rx100 the one to beat?
In reply to Undah, Feb 6, 2013

Undah wrote:

I'm itching for a new camera, a smaller one, a 'go anywhere' cam, for when I don't feel like taking the a57 and associated gear.

I've been looking everywhere for fast shutter response, excellent image quality, solid build quality, video with zoom and without zoom motor noise, and an excellent lens. I'm interested in easy adjustments (external controls preferable) but can overlook the lack of this if the auto mode is solid.

I'm waiting for the Fuji x20 to come out. I'm looking at the olympus XZ-2. Even considering the Pentax MX-1.

If you want pocketable, I'd consider the Olympus XZ-10 if its image quality turns out to be worthy. It does not have the sensor size of the other high end compacts, but it is it has wider aperture across the zoom than the RX100, many features, and is bound to be less expensive.  It's brand new, not even available for purchase yet.

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Liz Z.
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Re: rx100 the one to beat?
In reply to Liz Z., Feb 6, 2013

Liz Z. wrote:

If you want pocketable, I'd consider the Olympus XZ-10 if its image quality turns out to be worthy. It does not have the sensor size of the other high end compacts, but it is it has wider aperture across the zoom than the RX100, many features, and is bound to be less expensive. It's brand new, not even available for purchase yet.

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Liz

What I meant to say is,"I'd also consider the Olympus XZ-10...."

I own an RX100 and am thrilled with it, but there are always interesting cameras coming up the pike!

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Liz

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YiannisPP
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Re: rx100 the one to beat?
In reply to Ray Sachs, Feb 6, 2013

Ray Sachs wrote:

Enir4 wrote:

theranman wrote:

I'd pick either the X20 or the successor to the RX100 (RX200?). This requires much patience.

Waiting is against my principles.
Besides, I don't think that the much smaller sensor of the X20 can campete with the RX100.

It probably won't beat it, but it may come close enough that with the much faster lens (except at the wide end), it may be a better package overall. I think the X10 already beats it overall. If the X20 is better than the X10, it wouldn't be a close call for me. It's true the RX100 sensor is the best in class by a notable margin, but there's a whole lot more to a camera than a sensor and I found the RX100 to fall very short in most other areas. The X10/20 is a good deal better overall and the LX7 is better yet (but with a far lesser sensor).

-Ray
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I think people forget to mention some things when arguing that a faster lens (when zoomed in) can "overcome" a better sensor and thus make for an overall better package.

First of all, you have to know how many of your shots are wide angle and how many are zoomed in and how much. Most people (from reading comments over the years in these forums) stay at wide angle for the majority of their shots. In that case the lens advantage doesn't really come in to play and the RX100 wins.

Second, what about all those shots that you take in good light? Why forget about those, do people only shoot in challenging conditions? I think again you need to ask what type of photography you do most. If you like taking pictures in the sun (need to live in a sunny place for that of course:) then the RX100 and any other camera will pick their sweet spot, say around f/4/5 and base ISO would be used. In those cases the RX100 will always be better than other small sensor cameras in dynamic range, in resolution, in color depth and in base ISO noise. Simply the photos look richer/better and with more room to pp.

Third, whether the X10 package beats the RX100 is a question whose answer largely depends on how much you care about the pocketability of the RX100. If you don't then you're right, maybe they can compete, but if you do then the RX100 is the only winner. Afterall most of its shortcomings stem from the fact that its designers wanted it to be that small. There simply is no other camera you can put in your pocket and just forget about it that outputs such quality photos.

Finally the RX200 can get better too, not only the X20:)

And lastly, all these cameras are really good, just buy the one that appeals more to you for whatever reason, the one you'll end up using more.

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Undah
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Re: RX100: The One to Beat?
In reply to Stephen McDonald, Feb 6, 2013

Stephen McDonald wrote:

The Panasonic LX7..

Its sensor is larger than those of most small cameras, but not so large that it puts CMOS artifacts into its video, when shooting 60p. And Panasonic is known to provide firmware upgrades when needed, for its small cameras.

Thanks for this info.  I wasn't aware that the Panasonic LX series finally went with a larger sensor.  I wasnot interested in it back in the LX1-3 stages of development but will take a look at it.

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Undah
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Good points Yiannis,
In reply to YiannisPP, Feb 6, 2013

you make valid valid points.

One thing that has made the decision more difficult is the internet, indirectly.

While one can read about all the different models, and check image quality comparisons, very few stores actually have them in stock, presumably because they can't compete with online stores.

I could find out in 5 minutes which is best for me based on handling but have not seen these cameras anywhere.

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YiannisPP
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Re: RX100: The One to Beat?
In reply to Undah, Feb 6, 2013

Undah wrote:

Thanks for this info. I wasn't aware that the Panasonic LX series finally went with a larger sensor. I wasnot interested in it back in the LX1-3 stages of development but will take a look at it.

It didn't:) The LX7 sensor is actually a fraction smaller than the LX3 sensor.

But do take a look at it, it's probably a very capable camera. I have only had one Panasonic (TZ7) and it certainly was quality. I can only imagine how much better the LX7 is.

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Undah
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Re: rx100 the one to beat?
In reply to elliottnewcomb, Feb 6, 2013

Good points.

elliottnewcomb wrote:

rx100 is the only PANTS pocketable, others are JACKET pocketable if that counts for you. For me, the best camera is the one I always have with me.

I'm finding this is more and more becoming a priority.  So much so, that I've considered getting the Nokia 808 and skipping this gen of pocket cams.  But while the iq is outstanding, I'm afraid useability might not be up to par, and have not actually laid hands on one.  That and the fixed wide lens.

Movies: Had Oly XZ-1, liked it very much, but, movies were awful, it could not focus, move it, could not focus, zoom it, could not focus, friends XZ-1 did the same thing, we returned them. rx100 movies are quite good, focus is good, sound is good

Great info.  While I rarely do video, I like to know that when I need it, it's there, and works well.  The Oly is out.  (Eliminated one!)

rx100 IQ is quite good, it does have a learning curve and I have needed some work with it to find what works for this and that. I don't use Auto, others seem to do well with that.

rx100 shallow depth of field is limited, compared to a larger sensor dslr; much better than smaller sensor p&s, but you need to be close to subject with background not too near.

rx100 flash is stronger than I read about, and bounce-able, and can adjust strength in-camera, I use it cut back most of the time.

Do you get red-eye or lazy eye/ blinking with flash photos with the rx100?

rx100 28 mm ok, I miss my 24 mm occasionally, when I cannot back up enough.

I know not a true substitute, but more and more I've been using the Sony tx7 panorama mode when wide isn't wide enough.  Works incredibly well.  Oddly, it's much more difficult to use sweep panorama with my a57 - something about the clicking sound throws me off and it takes a few attempts to actually make one and not get an error (too fast, or too slow).

rx100 optical zoom only 100 mm, but, has extended optical, and clear zoom which is quite good

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9701497431/albums/rx100-extended-optical-and-clear-zoom

Good luck deciding,

Elliott

Yes, I was wondering how much optical or cropping-zoom one could get from those 20 megapixels.  I've pretty much ruled it useless on my a57, but then again, with that, I can throw on a long lens and am expecting the utmost in iq.  I'll check out that link.

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YiannisPP
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Re: Good points Yiannis,
In reply to Undah, Feb 6, 2013

Undah wrote:

you make valid valid points.

One thing that has made the decision more difficult is the internet, indirectly.

While one can read about all the different models, and check image quality comparisons, very few stores actually have them in stock, presumably because they can't compete with online stores.

I could find out in 5 minutes which is best for me based on handling but have not seen these cameras anywhere.

Yes, you're right...I guess you need to live in a big capital city, or at least pass by an airport such as Heathrow, to be able to see most of those side by side. But if handling is very important then maybe the RX100 is not the best choice. Not because I don't like the way it handles, but as I said its emphasis is on pocketability. I guess slightly bigger cameras with more room for controls might handle better. Good luck!

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Undah
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clear zoom
In reply to Undah, Feb 6, 2013
rx100 optical zoom only 100 mm, but, has extended optical, and clear zoom which is quite good

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9701497431/albums/rx100-extended-optical-and-clear-zoom

Good luck deciding,

Elliott

Yes, I was wondering how much optical or cropping-zoom one could get from those 20 megapixels. I've pretty much ruled it useless on my a57, but then again, with that, I can throw on a long lens and am expecting the utmost in iq. I'll check out that link.

My first impression was that this sort of shot (night, with a well lit sign, no detail) is perfect for showing off the abilities of clear zoom, but wondered how much detail you'd lose when detail matters.  But then, wow, the 5mp clear zoom marquis sign actually shows the wood or brick building material behind it, in the dark, at high iso!  Very impressive for a pocket cam indeed.

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Undah
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Re: RX100: The One to Beat?
In reply to YiannisPP, Feb 6, 2013

YiannisPP wrote:

Undah wrote:

Thanks for this info. I wasn't aware that the Panasonic LX series finally went with a larger sensor. I wasnot interested in it back in the LX1-3 stages of development but will take a look at it.

It didn't:) The LX7 sensor is actually a fraction smaller than the LX3 sensor.

figures

But do take a look at it, it's probably a very capable camera. I have only had one Panasonic (TZ7) and it certainly was quality. I can only imagine how much better the LX7 is.

I know what you mean.  In good light I'm constantly amazed at what the little Panasonic ZS3 puts out.

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