I sometimes wonder

Started Feb 4, 2013 | Discussions
Ultradan
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I sometimes wonder
Feb 4, 2013

wether reading these forums is a bad idea, you see until fairly recently I was just your average run of the mill photographer taking photo's of the things I like to shoot - the ocean, surfing etc. I have had quite a few shots published in various magazines over the years and every time I have been really happy with how they looked, now, granted I'm not talking National Geographic or Vanity Fair but still national mags read by many. So to the point - until I started reading these types of forums I never really tried to notice the difference between images (on a pixel size scale) nor did I ever worry about how many actuations my camera has done. Now I find myself pouring over photos on pixel peeper trying to see if I can notice a difference between a 5d mk1 and a 1ds mk2 or a 1d mk3 and a 1dx.  I have come to the conclusion that pretty much 95% of everything that is is discussed about "which camera is better" is just waffle - there really isn't (or hardly isn't) any real difference between pretty much all of the modern day camera body's Image quality if using the same lens in the same conditions by a competent photographer. That is to say that there isn't thousands of ££'s difference anyhow. Yes I appreciate that there are pro's on here that genuinely need the top level gear for large print and other applications, but I bet if most were honest they hardly ever blow up their photos large enough to notice the benefit of all the extra spent ££'s and most people just upload their best shots to flikr - or similar sites.

I appreciate that I am probably coming across as ignorant and negative and I assure you that that is not my intention, I am actually happy that I have come to this conclusion at this relative early stage and before I made a mistake and went and spent money on a camera body that probably would make no real world improvement over my current body (Eos 550d w grip). I personally believe that money spent on decent glass is money far better spent than trying to cram in an extra few megapixels/latest technology.

I really look forward to peoples responses (try not to be too harsh!) and hearing their points of view on this subject and their thoughts on the difference in image quality across the range of modern day camera bodies, i.e last 10 years.

Cheers

Canon EOS 550D (EOS Rebel T2i / EOS Kiss X4) Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS-1D Canon EOS-1Ds
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Schwany
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 4, 2013

There's still time to save yourself and stop reading these kinds of forums. Just saying

No comment on the viewpoint regarding image quality and cameras made over the last 10 years.

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DreamsAreDust
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 4, 2013

Welcome to the "CamPeen" side of DPR.. mind the "elites" on your way in and please hang your brain up in the cloak room.

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Schwany
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In reply to DreamsAreDust, Feb 4, 2013

DreamsAreDust wrote:

Welcome to the "CamPeen" side of DPR.. mind the "elites" on your way in and please hang your brain up in the cloak room.

Free lobotomy with first ten posts.

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Ultradan
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 4, 2013

Haha, sorry guys, didn't mean to start an argument 

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Schwany
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Smooth sailing here
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 4, 2013

Ultradan wrote:

Haha, sorry guys, didn't mean to start an argument

You'll get no argument out of me.

That's why I have no comment about the image quality and cameras viewpoint.

I got my free lobotomy a long time ago. That's why I'm still here.

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DreamsAreDust
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Re: Smooth sailing here
In reply to Schwany, Feb 4, 2013

Schwany wrote:

Ultradan wrote:

Haha, sorry guys, didn't mean to start an argument

You'll get no argument out of me.

Same here - we two are just having a laugh..

("You're just baiting" "Yes, I'm a master at it")

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Boxsternoob56
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 4, 2013

Ultradan wrote:

Haha, sorry guys, didn't mean to start an argument

dont think you have, your post comes across perfectly decent to me....and it reminds me of some of the guys posting on DPR using crop cameras (that are a few incanrations old) and producing much beter photos than many with much more recent and expensive equipement.

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happysnapper64
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 5, 2013

Hi ultradan. I have written my opinion on this very topic on here a couple of times, but I will tell it again if I may. For a start, I can't go back 10yrs as I only took up photography about 16 months ago. When I was looking for my first camera in, I think it was Sept. 2011, I did not know about DPR or any other photographic forum. The shop manager of my local Jessops told me about it, & I signed up in Feb 2012. I have since had communication with many very nice friendly people who take the time to help myself & others out, as well as just chatting in PM's. Now, I am certain that if I had been a forum member before I bought my camera & other gear, I would have been totally confused by all the different opinions, based on 100% crops, corner sharpness, diffraction, fringing, saturation, sensor types, No of MP's, AF performance, stabilization, f/No's, fps, to name but a few. Then there's Canon v Nikon v Sony etc, etc. It could have been a nightmare. Instead, I went with an open mind, & chose my gear based on instinct. I went to john Lewis, who don't have a great selection anyway, & bought my camera the same day as I decided I wanted one. I bought a 600D Canon. I did end up getting a new one 5 months ago,[7D] but that was because I have an arthritic condition, & my hands & fingers were having trouble locating some of the controls on the 600D. The 7D is perfect, & SO much easier for me to use. I will continue to enjoy my time on the DPR forums. I may need help with a lens upgrade soon!!! lol. Sorry for the length of this monologue.

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Nigel Wilkins
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 5, 2013

I agree with pretty much everything you say.  I've also had several photos published & sold large prints & all of them, without exception could've been made with my old 8 megapixel 20D (some were in fact).

Personally, my excuse for spending the extra on full frame was for shallower depth of field & a better selection of specialist lenses (24mm TS-E, 85mm f1.2 etc.).  After that, ease of use brought about by the addition of live view & now wifi for remote live view.  These are things rarely discussed here, & which are much more useful for obtaining quality in certain types of photography (landscapes for me) than a mere doubling of pixel count.

That said, it is always nice to have the spare noise-free pixels should you find the need to crop once in a while, but as you say, not for the kind of money that's being spent.

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Schwany
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And furthermore
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 5, 2013

Ultradan wrote:

Haha, sorry guys, didn't mean to start an argument

Absolutely no need for the sorry. You're making plenty of sense from your perspective. I personally couldn't do everything I do with one crop camera. Not because the camera couldn't do it, but because I would have to change the way I work, or play in my case.

There are differences between crop cameras and full frame bodies as far as how the camera renders the images is concerned. I have a pretty good sampling, and can see it. But if you're not seeing it, you're not seeing it. I have no idea how to argue a case for owning expensive equipment based on the potential for improved image quality alone. The image content usually does most of the talking with regard to image quality, and that image could be from a phone.

Anyway, nothing wrong with being happy with what you have in a camera. And I agree that quality lenses are a better investment. Then of course there's the how much difference does the quality of the lens make in an image. Lots of folks say none. I'm not one of them though.

Gotta go

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ktownbill
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 5, 2013

You have to take everything with a grain of salt.  Always apply the appropiate amount of educated skepticism.

I strongly suggest that you take all information and knowledge gleaned from a forum as a rough guide to point you in the right direction in your quest for such knowledge. THEN, rent said equipment and see for yourself because your mileage may vary (ymmv) if you know what I mean.

Allow me to use FF Vs Crop cameras as an example where YMMV.  If your photography was strictly landscape where all images are shot at infinty settings on the lens you would be hard pressed to find any IQ difference. Again, using the same cameras in an indoor studio you would be hard pressed to find a difference. Now use the same bodies in outdoor portraiture and street photography and PJ and there is a world of difference!! For these very reasons and a few unmentioned ones, I own FF and Crop bodies.  A FF body will give you 60% less DoF (depth of field) which will seperate your subject from the background rendering that magic 3D effect attributed to FF.  This is often mistaken for better IQ of FF over Crop.

Do this:   Rent a FF camera and a 135L lens and compare the images it makes to your 550D and the kit lens it came with. It will blow you away.

Hope this helps you.

Bill

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Kabe Luna
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 5, 2013

(Photographic) style is more important than gear, and among gear, lenses and lighting are more important than any camera body. Assuming small format cameras are appropriate for your style and subject matter, I wouldn't worry about the camera body at all until I sorted out my style and had the lighting and lenses to support it. Then you will be in a position to know whether or not a different camera body has anything to contribute to your style.

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Rexgig0
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 5, 2013

Welcome to the forum!

I can empathize! I read these forums for quite a long time before finally deciding to join, and joined reluctantly, and then started to post hesitantly. I do not need a high MP count to make images that are pleasing to me. Based largely on DPR's reviews of various full-frame cameras, I purchased my first full-frame DSLR, a 5D "Classic," in December 2011. A year later, in December 2012, with 5D Mark II prices at an all-time low, and the 5D Mark III a known quantity, I purchased a second 5D Classic, largely so I can keep my 135L mounted full-time on one, and my 40mm 2.8 STM on the other. (Yes, Classic; such a title is earned, and I think the original 5D has earned it.)

At work, which is evidentiary photography, I do not need high MP, and APS-C cameras are the norm. I do use a current camera model, the 7D, actually two of them, for the weather resistance, excellent ergonomics, and quite good AWB, compared to earlier cameras, because I often have to shoot in the rain, in crappy mixed ambient lighting, under time constraints, and much of the time while holding the camera in one hand, while my left hand is otherwise occupied. The 7D helps me by making my job easier; the MP count is just a bonus, which will not be fully realized until I finally get around to doing more bird photography in future. The largest prints I have brought to court are 8x10, and smaller is the norm.

I acquired my first 5D over a year after my first 7D, so it is not as if I did not know about high FPS and fast AF at the time. Life is good!

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fmpicture
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 5, 2013

Hello

Sure we have all some reasons to come here, some we like, some we dont.

I suppose it is at the end some kind of ego war versus self and others

Finaly we come or we leave

I ended so far staying and learn to accept my flaws and to accept self important persons just because i may be one at times

Indeed this place should be a relaxing one and yes we could be more cool, after all we just all share the same pleasure

Thx for your post

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ASR45
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to DreamsAreDust, Feb 5, 2013

I wonder a lot as well, but gets me nowhere.  

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Press Correspondent
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Wrong forum?
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 5, 2013

Ultradan wrote:

my current body (Eos 550d w grip)

Perhaps you feel this way, because you are in the wrong forum. Try the Rebel forum appropriate for your camera. You may feel better there.

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schmegg
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Re: Wrong forum?
In reply to Press Correspondent, Feb 5, 2013

Press Correspondent wrote:

Ultradan wrote:

my current body (Eos 550d w grip)

Perhaps you feel this way, because you are in the wrong forum. Try the Rebel forum appropriate for your camera. You may feel better there.

To be honest - this one is probably more suited to the Open Talk forum.

But, I see no real harm in having the discussion here.

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biza43
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 5, 2013

Of course you are absolutely right on your wonderings. I have been doing photography for more than 20 years, and yes, equipment is important, but much more important is to develop your own vision and style.

But discussions about vision and style, are not suitable or well received in a forum like this, where people are obssessed with gear... most people here think that new gear will improve their photography, and obvioulsy they have more money than good judgment...

So, it is fun to spend some time here, to check the latest and greatest, but ultimately, you need to go and learn about the truly important aspects of photography (eg creativity, inspiration) elsewhere.

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PhotoKhan
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Re: I sometimes wonder
In reply to Ultradan, Feb 5, 2013

Ultradan wrote:

wether reading these forums is a bad idea, you see until fairly recently I was just your average run of the mill photographer taking photo's of the things I like to shoot - the ocean, surfing etc. I have had quite a few shots published in various magazines over the years and every time I have been really happy with how they looked, now, granted I'm not talking National Geographic or Vanity Fair but still national mags read by many. So to the point - until I started reading these types of forums I never really tried to notice the difference between images (on a pixel size scale) nor did I ever worry about how many actuations my camera has done. Now I find myself pouring over photos on pixel peeper trying to see if I can notice a difference between a 5d mk1 and a 1ds mk2 or a 1d mk3 and a 1dx. I have come to the conclusion that pretty much 95% of everything that is is discussed about "which camera is better" is just waffle - there really isn't (or hardly isn't) any real difference between pretty much all of the modern day camera body's Image quality if using the same lens in the same conditions by a competent photographer. That is to say that there isn't thousands of ££'s difference anyhow. Yes I appreciate that there are pro's on here that genuinely need the top level gear for large print and other applications, but I bet if most were honest they hardly ever blow up their photos large enough to notice the benefit of all the extra spent ££'s and most people just upload their best shots to flikr - or similar sites.

I appreciate that I am probably coming across as ignorant and negative and I assure you that that is not my intention, I am actually happy that I have come to this conclusion at this relative early stage and before I made a mistake and went and spent money on a camera body that probably would make no real world improvement over my current body (Eos 550d w grip). I personally believe that money spent on decent glass is money far better spent than trying to cram in an extra few megapixels/latest technology.

I really look forward to peoples responses (try not to be too harsh!) and hearing their points of view on this subject and their thoughts on the difference in image quality across the range of modern day camera bodies, i.e last 10 years.

Cheers

You're far from "coming across as ignorant and negative". In fact you hit that nail on right the head.

The simple, hardly deniable fact that many have difficulty to deal with around here:

Most of the current mid to top range DSLRs from most manufacturers can deal astonishingly well with 95-98% of what any serious amateurs/professionals are bound to require from their cameras.

PK

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