FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison

Started Feb 1, 2013 | Discussions
Ronomy
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to dpfan32, Feb 1, 2013

Don't you hate how if you want to go back and change something in the picture title it blows everything away and you have to retype it?  Drives me nuts!

Good comparison!  These small imaging chips have too much noise in scenes with a lot of leaf less branches.  The noise reduction...even in silkypix smears the detail but it is selecting it because there is a lot of noise in between those branches.  With these low ISO images I like to take the RAW image and reduce the luminance noise reduction to zero.  The image has a little more grain but you get the most detail.

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Ronomy
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to dpfan32, Feb 2, 2013

Just saw your post in the old thread.  NR -2 and SH +1.  I have seen a lot of images taken with fast shutter speeds that seem to work with these settings.  I have never been able to get them looking clean with those settings.  I was using NR -2 and SH -1 for a while but needed neat image to clean them up.  I had to pp every image.  Have to wonder if every camera is different...are some sensors cleaner than others?  Don't know.

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dpfan32
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to Ronomy, Feb 6, 2013

NR -2 and SH +1 produces too much artifacts

EV-1/3 NR-1 SH-2

NR-2 SH+1

Last image is oversharpened I don't like it. Forgot to change EV to -1/3 It's a bit too bright but looks quite good that way Unsure whar to use...

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Ronomy
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to dpfan32, Feb 6, 2013

Outdoors in bright light and scenery images try dropping NR to -2.  You will get a little more sharpness in distant objects.  You may see more noise in highlights but not always.  Sometimes they look just as clean as the NR -1 images.

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dpfan32
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to Ronomy, Feb 6, 2013

OK will try. But I don't like too much noise in the sky. Does NR-2 cause such noise?

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Ronomy
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to dpfan32, Feb 6, 2013

OK will try. But I don't like too much noise in the sky. Does NR-2 cause such noise?

In lower light best to increase NR unless you want to post process. Are you looking for a sharper image or cleaner image?

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Ronomy
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to dpfan32, Feb 6, 2013

OK will try. But I don't like too much noise in the sky. Does NR-2 cause such noise?

Another mode of operation that I get good results with but after using neat image to noise reduce and sharpen is izoom/ires off and-2 NR & SH. Most of the time you only need sharpening and its still the best at reducing smudges of fine detail. However since Silkypix 5.0 Pro was released I would rather just shoot RAW & JPG then process the RAW file if I am not happy with the JPG taken using ires/izoom on, NR-1 and SH-2. The more RAW processed images I see the more I am thinking about giving up on JPG's and just shoot all RAW. My old P4 PC is too slow to process every image tho.

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dpfan32
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to Ronomy, Mar 4, 2013

Shooting JPEG is for me unsatisfactory. With RAW I can get the best out of the FZ200 thanks to SilkyPix 5 Pro.

But for wide angle images I think I'll stick with the Nokia 808. It's the best camera I have. My Canon S95 and PEN E-PL1 can be sold on eBay now. The S95 is only a bit better than FZ200 and PEN ... Well I can't carry 1000 cameras with me and it's worse than the Nokia (yes I know what I'm talking about )

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John Beavin
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to Ronomy, Mar 4, 2013

Looking at your two pictures  convinces me that RAW is a time waster for the average photographer,  I use PhotoScape, and I am continually finding subtle tweaks, if an image can be improved I am convinced PhotoScape can match RAW, unless you are going to poster size.

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dpfan32
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to John Beavin, Mar 28, 2013

SilkyPix 5 is for me a must for long zoom images.

There I can remove the JPEG artifacts out of the animal details.

But for landscape fotos the SilkyPix 5 results are too smooth for my taste. Branches are smeared away where in the JPEG version the branches are visible, yes with more artifacts but visible.

OK SIlkyPix makes reveals more shadow and highlight details, but I could live without that.

If someone tells me how to sharpen the RAWs to look sharp like the JPEGs I would try that too.

##################

And second what I discovered to make more artifacts is the iResolution.

I disabled iResolution and shoot simply in P mode with AWB only one click (not 2 or 3 it's too warm, I dont want a Canon look again)  to A (left) and highest JPEG quality.

All the other N and S Settings I left on 0!

No more experiments for me. Turning down sharpness makes photos too soft, even with iResolution on, which only causes ugly artifacts.

Turning down Noise reduction makes on the sky some kind of ugly posterization effect.

When I need iZoom where iResolution is enabled as well, I go to mode dial C1 where I have enabled this feature but also RAW, so I don't have to deal with iResolution when I use RAW for long zoom anyway.

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Ronomy
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to dpfan32, Mar 28, 2013

SilkyPix 5 is for me a must for long zoom images.

There I can remove the JPEG artifacts out of the animal details.

But for landscape fotos the SilkyPix 5 results are too smooth for my taste. Branches are smeared away where in the JPEG version the branches are visible, yes with more artifacts but visible.

OK SIlkyPix makes reveals more shadow and highlight details, but I could live without that.

If someone tells me how to sharpen the RAWs to look sharp like the JPEGs I would try that too.

##################

And second what I discovered to make more artifacts is the iResolution.

I disabled iResolution and shoot simply in P mode with AWB only one click (not 2 or 3 it's too warm, I dont want a Canon look again)  to A (left) and highest JPEG quality.

All the other N and S Settings I left on 0!

No more experiments for me. Turning down sharpness makes photos too soft, even with iResolution on, which only causes ugly artifacts.

Turning down Noise reduction makes on the sky some kind of ugly posterization effect.

When I need iZoom where iResolution is enabled as well, I go to mode dial C1 where I have enabled this feature but also RAW, so I don't have to deal with iResolution when I use RAW for long zoom anyway.

In scenery images I have to reduce NR to -2 or tree branches are smudged. Ires on this camera is set to high and really only works when ires and sharpness is low. No higher than -1. If your not a pixel peeper and don't crop to much higher SH can look good. I am looking back at my non ires images taken last fall and I like my SH -1 and NR -2 settings in standard photo style mode. Halos along straight edges are acceptable with these settings and they clean up easy enough in neat image if I want them cleaner.

Ires is dynamic and doesn't always get it right but when it does it can be pretty good. Still scenery shots can have fine detail smudges even with NR -2.

So my new plan is to set NR -2 and adjust SH to taste. SH -1 works for me. if too much noise I increase NR to -1 or even 0. SH set to 0 seems to highlight large high luminance noise that is hard to remove in pp. You don't see it as much when NR is set high with SH also at 0 but its there. I don't see this noise in Silkypix pro with RAW files so its the camera processing that adds that noise.

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SirLataxe
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to dpfan32, Mar 28, 2013

dpfan32 wrote:

But for landscape fotos the SilkyPix 5 results are too smooth for my taste. Branches are smeared away where in the JPEG version the branches are visible, yes with more artifacts but visible.

Silkypix has many controls for applying NR and sharpness.  The two sets are related, as with any RAW development program.  For example, reducing noise allows more sharpening without noise becoming apparent in plain tone/colour areas such as skies or skin.  But too much NR can also destroy edge definition so that sharpening can't be so effectively applied.

I find it possible to get a very good balance of noise reduction & sharpening with Silkypix, particularly from well-exposed 100ISO images.  The default Silkypix development for 100ISO images is a little too soft for detailed landscapes, as you note, but detail is not "smeared away"; rather it is waiting to be revealed by NR/sharpening tweaks.

You can do two things in Silkypix, then, to increase the acuity of landscape images:

  1. Reduce the NR a little bit to leave more of the fine-grained luminance noise (but not the colour noise).
  2. Increase the sharpening to delineate edges (but not luminance noise) more.

You need to do both so that you avoid too much obvious noise but make the details stand out. My own preferences are to:

  • Increase demosaic sharpening by 20 - 25% to somewhere between 90 - 100% (the Silkypix default for 100ISO images seems to be 72%).
  •  Increase the sharpening slider "outline emphasis" by 5 - 10% above the Silkypix default (which seems to be 25% for 100ISO images).
  •  Decrease the "noise reduction" slider by about 5% below the Silkypix default.
  • Increase the "neat noise" slider by a few points to help rid skies and other plain-tone/colour areas of any increased luminance noise showing as a result of applying more sharpening.

This seems to provide the basis for an output 16bit TIFF that needs no further NR but can take more sharpening in Photoshop.  In Photoshop I use one or more low-value high-pass-filter based actions (depending on the subject of the image) to increase edge sharpness without increasing noise in those skies et al.

OK SIlkyPix makes reveals more shadow and highlight details, but I could live without that.

That's exactly what I can't live without, especially with FZ200 landscape images, which often need to be underexposed to avoid highlight blowout. As an underexposed 16bit RAW file they can be "lifted" to proper exposure in Silkypix without the lightened shadows being "flat" or too noisy, which is often difficult or impossible to do with 8bit camera jpegs.

If someone tells me how to sharpen the RAWs to look sharp like the JPEGs I would try that too.

See above as a starting point, but.... a post by Mr Levine revealed that the best demosaicing engine seems to be that of the FZ200 camera-jpeg engine.  It does better than both Silkypix and AdobeCameraRaw at extracting the finest detail without colour-bleed of the edges. But see below...

All the other N and S Settings I left on 0!

No more experiments for me. Turning down sharpness makes photos too soft, even with iResolution on, which only causes ugly artifacts.

Turning down Noise reduction makes on the sky some kind of ugly posterization effect.

Even with NR and sharpening in the camera turned down to -2 (the best setting for avoiding NR smears and sharpening artefacts) there is a slight risk (and it is slight) that smearing will occur in the very finest landscape furze.  But the camera jpegs can also be sharpened effectively in either Silkypix or Photoshop.

I'm puzzled that you think turning down NR in the camera gives jpegs with posterisation effects.  Are you sure this is not due to your editing of them?

The risk with jpegs is always the same - get the camera settings wrong and you will have an image file that may be too far from good-enough-to-fix without posterisation, noisy shadows, weird white balance and other editing effects.

SirLataxe

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Ronomy
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to SirLataxe, Mar 28, 2013

SirLataxe,  Nice post!  This about sums up Silkypix Pro settings at least in the lower ISO images.  Good set of tips and I agree with your comments about in camera jpgs.  I see the same results for the most part.

Ron

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sherman_levine
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to SirLataxe, Mar 28, 2013

When I hear "Posterization" I think iResolution with Sharpen>-2

Sherm

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Ronomy
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to sherman_levine, Mar 28, 2013

When I hear "Posterization" I think iResolution with Sharpen>-2

Sherm

Really? I have never seen that type of artifact with ires and have looked at over 1k images. Making contrast and color adjustments in PP on jpgs maybe a few times it has popped up.

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sherman_levine
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to Ronomy, Mar 28, 2013

Ronomy wrote:

When I hear "Posterization" I think iResolution with Sharpen>-2

Sherm

Really? I have never seen that type of artifact with ires and have looked at over 1k images. Making contrast and color adjustments in PP on jpgs maybe a few times it has popped up.

Perhaps I'm giving it the wrong name.

What do you see when you use  Ires=on and Sharpen=0 ?

Sherm

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Ronomy
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to sherman_levine, Mar 28, 2013

Ronomy wrote:

When I hear "Posterization" I think iResolution with Sharpen>-2

Sherm

Really? I have never seen that type of artifact with ires and have looked at over 1k images. Making contrast and color adjustments in PP on jpgs maybe a few times it has popped up.

Perhaps I'm giving it the wrong name.

What do you see when you use  Ires=on and Sharpen=0 ?

Sherm

Oh I think I know what you mean! I see excessive sharpness and more halos. The edge enhancement can give the image a hard over sharpened look that sort of looks like contrast enhancement. The image looks flat and fake. Looks digital! Like what happens when you turn up your TV's sharpness too high.

I think of posturization as a color artifact. Color breaks up and distorts. Color ramp is in a stair step like pattern instead of a smooth ramp.

Ires can also smudge fine detail in some parts of the image even when set to -2.

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sherman_levine
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to Ronomy, Mar 28, 2013

Ronomy wrote:

Ronomy wrote:

When I hear "Posterization" I think iResolution with Sharpen>-2

Sherm

Really? I have never seen that type of artifact with ires and have looked at over 1k images. Making contrast and color adjustments in PP on jpgs maybe a few times it has popped up.

Perhaps I'm giving it the wrong name.

What do you see when you use  Ires=on and Sharpen=0 ?

Sherm

Oh I think I know what you mean! I see excessive sharpness and more halos. The edge enhancement can give the image a hard over sharpened look that sort of looks like contrast enhancement. The image looks flat and fake. Looks digital! Like what happens when you turn up your TV's sharpness too high.

I think of posturization as a color artifact. Color breaks up and distorts. Color ramp is in a stair step like pattern instead of a smooth ramp.

Ires can also smudge fine detail in some parts of the image even when set to -2.

My first response to my day of  IRes=On, Sharpen=0 images was that they looked like "paint by numbers" pictures.   That was the day I decided I would always save Raw+JPG

Sherm

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Ronomy
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to sherman_levine, Mar 28, 2013

Ronomy wrote:

Ronomy wrote:

When I hear "Posterization" I think iResolution with Sharpen>-2

Sherm

Really? I have never seen that type of artifact with ires and have looked at over 1k images. Making contrast and color adjustments in PP on jpgs maybe a few times it has popped up.

Perhaps I'm giving it the wrong name.

What do you see when you use  Ires=on and Sharpen=0 ?

Sherm

Oh I think I know what you mean! I see excessive sharpness and more halos. The edge enhancement can give the image a hard over sharpened look that sort of looks like contrast enhancement. The image looks flat and fake. Looks digital! Like what happens when you turn up your TV's sharpness too high.

I think of posturization as a color artifact. Color breaks up and distorts. Color ramp is in a stair step like pattern instead of a smooth ramp.

Ires can also smudge fine detail in some parts of the image even when set to -2.

My first response to my day of  IRes=On, Sharpen=0 images was that they looked like "paint by numbers" pictures.   That was the day I decided I would always save Raw+JPG

Sherm

I see that with noise reduction set to high in low lighting! Even with ires off but you are right Ires can make that stand out more. I call it smudging of fine detail.

I am moving away from ires when I want the most detail. But in lower lighting ires can help a lot but NR and SH need to be set low to -1 or -2 for it to look good to me.

the ires setting on the FZ200 is always high except when shooting iA mode which is set to the standard setting. Confirmed with PhotoMe. I like ires set to low on my LX7.

Ron

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jimkh
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Re: FZ200: Silkypix RAW and Standard JPG comparison
In reply to Ronomy, Mar 28, 2013

Pardon me for coming in late but please explain what you mean when you say "ires/zoom." Thanks.

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