B&H selling returned products: Question for Mr. Henry Posner

On November 8, 2007 Mr. Posner stated in fredmiranda.com forum that "if a product is returned in pristine as-new condition and the reason for the return is something OTHER THAN "It's not working correctly," it will either go back on the shelf or become an "open box" item or go to the used dept, depending on individual circumstances."

Link: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/587262

Does B&H still sell returned goods as new or have yo changed this practice after 2007?

Can you explain or give examples of "individual circumstances" where returns go back on the self?

Isn't it unethical and/or illegal to sell goods that have been sold before as new?

I have got nothing but excellent service fro B&H but I feel if you are still selling returned products as new, you should clearly inform the customers that products have been sold before.

I too am a satisfied B&H customer and being such, I do not find the above suggesion at all unreasonable. It would be nice if they sold these returned items at discount prices.

I used to work for Woodwind & Brasswind, the nation's largest retailer of musical instruments, and we had such policy about items that were returned for non-defective reasons.
Whether it was a $14,000 tuba, a $3,500 guitar, or a $2,500 trumpet - if it was returned because the new owner just didn't 'like' it after taking it home - and had no damage or flaws whatsoever - then it was cleaned up and presented as new to the next paying customer, whether it had been out of our store for 2 days or 40 days.
I would imagine it's the same with camera gear.

No, in fact very normal.  What about all of those camera's in your local stores that are new, yet people pick them up and hold them, test them, and even fire off a few shots?  Does that mean that store can not sell that item as new after someone handles it?

Let's say, I buy a new camera from B&H Photo, and I get it in the mail.  I don't even open it as I have had a change of mind.  So, I call and get return authorization and send it back.

The item has never been opened, handled or used.  So, of course they will place in back in stock as new.

B&H Photo is perhaps, if not, the single most respected online Electronics store on this planet.  A quick review of their ratings will show you that also.  So, please don't think for a second that B&H Photo would jeopardize their superior ratings by selling USED cameras as new.  The key word being, USED.

If you are getting excellent service, then perhaps you should stop at that, and not risk making accusations that are clearly unfounded.

Again, every store on this planet sells some returned items as new.  Just because the item has been previously SOLD, does not mean it was USED.

Finally, go to a local camera store and handle a few camera's.  Click off a few test shots, and then see if they put that camera back on the shelf as NEW.

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Slider44

Almost every camera store I've ever dealt with will explicitly state if a model is ex-demo.  They're typically discounted a bit.

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StephenG

And, I take it, you think their return policy should be amended to return only the difference between the new price and the open-box price, rather than a full refund?

It always mystifies me when people advocate that others adopt policies that are obviously unprofitable.

bob

I have bought many electrical items, & other consumer goods, that have been on display. My last purchase was a Bosch dish washer only one of the model I was looking for, & I got a 10% discount & a years supply of dishwasher tablets. All this because it was ex-display. My current living room suite was ex-display, original price £2100, I got it for £1500 plus extra 2yr warranty. Both items are over 2yrs old & still like new. Cooker & hobb, originally £900, bought for £500. This was a discontinued item, but still works as new after nearly 5yrs. was also ex-display. I don't know if there is some kind of VAT exemption on display items, but I have never payed full price for anything that was on display. Lucky me?

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lee uk.
There are old pilots, & there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots.

Because if the policy was adopted unilaterally the problem would cease.  I wish the government would prohibit the sale of returned items at new prices... which would essentially force retailers to charge customers for returning other than defective items.  I would love to see a restocking fee.

Broke item = fine

Dissatisfied because the D800 shoots too slow for you = 25% restock fee, which the person can chalk up to being punishment for his or her lack of basic planning.

Don't many electronic stores that have been in business for at least a decade, have such policies?  If so, then why do you find such policies "unprofitable" on that issue alone?

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Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com

I would rather get full refund under the condition of 200 shutter releases max., than having an open box discount at the expense of less than full refund. Don't forget, they are already taking a hit by offering a free return shipping - that's pretty generous.

Vlad

They are usually samples for that intended purpose.

Common sense.  Many stores have a policy that states unopened packages are accepted.  The reality today is that many people have the means to repackage items as new!  Women take things back to dress shops and even Goodwill with the tags still on because they have the mechanical tagger at home.

This is why the used prom dress market games girls that don't know the ropes!  They think "still has tags on dress" means that the dress couldn't have been worn before, when in fact it might've been worn to several proms.

I think B&H is great; one of my favorite stores.  But that doesn't mean they're perfect and because they are so large, they can, and do (like other large stores) do things that aren't often in the best interest of the consumer.

Unfounded?  I've spent large amounts at B&H, but receiving obviously used items isn't  an "unfounded" claim that people are making that's for sure.

Incorrect.  Every store doesn't.  More than one has restocking fee and discounts previously received items.

Of course not-  they usually put it right back on the sample rack with the other samples... and since the local camera store is more apt to have batteries that have been on the shelf for 2 years (speaking from experience), and prices that make you cry faster than an onion, I buy almost exclusively online.

I would not buy a "new" camera from a local store that looks like it's been taken out and tested like a floor model.

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Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com

I have no problem with a restocking fee at all. However, some customers clearly favor a free returns policy. To get that, realistically they need to expect to pay more, and/or face the risk that what they receive might be a 'pristine' return item.

Vendors are going to try to tune their policies between price pressure, return-policy pressure, and customer satisfaction pressure (no one likes an unhappy customer--it's bad for business). Since all three measures are available to the informed customer, I don't see that government enforcement of a single approach helps. Some will charge more, some with re-sell more, and some will charge restocking fees. Let the vendors compete.

bob

1. Customer pays restocking fee on anything other than defective items.

2. Merchant only pays for shipping on defective items.

3. Non-defective items are discounted less then the restocking fee.

4. Restocking fee is enough to pay for the cost of handling the item (accounting, manpower, etc.)

Benefit?  The merchant doesn't get abused, the customers get what they think their ordering, and those that want to change their mind on a whim can do so at a price; other customers can benefit from their barely used/discounted item.

Change you mind on that 400 f/2.8 lens?  You pay $2,500 to send it back, ** or the going rental rate for the time you kept the lens, whichever is higher! ** This keeps people from using the lens for a week and sending it back as if the online store were a free rental house!

So you now have a person who wants a 400mm lens able to buy it for est 20% off, which equates to around a $2,000 discount.

You keep people honest by attaching their honestly to their pocketbook!

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Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com

You're right on target bob about the dynamics of business.  B&H is large enough to isolate itself from a certain amount of customer discontent (free shipping).  I like being able to return (broken) items back to B&H, as I don't feel that I should have to pay to return a broken item that obviously left the merchant broken... however, I think that I should have to pay for shipping if I'm returning an item merely because I didn't do my homework before making a knee-jerk purchase.

I made a mistake in my post, as I'm a FIRM believer in industry being able to charge what it wants.  I meant to write "I wish the government would prohibit the sale of returned items as 'new' items."

I believe in letting the vendors compete 100% without gov. intervention except for the part where the customer isn't getting what they think they're ordering (e.g. New In Box item).  That's where I think the gov. should step in.  I feel odd saying that because I usually like the gov. as far away from business as possible...

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Teila K. Day
http://teiladay.com

You guys are comparing two different things. Demo's vs USED.

B&H Photo has demo's. B&H Photos has USED.

It is really quite simple, and not really that difficult to understand. Not all previously sold items have to be sold as used, or open box. To even think such, is ridiculous. Just because an item has been sold, does not mean that item has been handled or even used. It is clearly up to the return department to make that determination and reclassify the item after return. I have given two examples of sold items that would NEVER have to be labeled as used, or open box.

So, if you guys want to keep arguing about DEMO units that are clearly there to handle, use, and try, then go ahead, I will not continue to debate that.

One final example. I go into a store and ask to see a Canon HS50, and the salesman brings one out and takes it out of the box for me to see and even handle. I decide not to buy that unit. Are you seriously trying to say that store must sell that unit as OPEN BOX? I sure hope not.

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Slider44

So, you own Teila's Camera Store and I order a camera from you.  You ship it.  I get in the mail, and I immediately decide that I do not want that camera.  I had buyer's remorse.

So, I call you and get a return authorization to return the item at my mailing expense.  When you get that item back in your store, are you saying that you can not sell that item as NEW?  Keep in mind, I never opened, or even handled the camera.

Furthermore, if you say you can't sell that item as new, tell me how you would have to sell it.  Please don't tell me OPEN BOX, or USED since it has never been handled, much less opened.

In my example above, THEY WOULD BE GETTING A NEW CAMERA IN A NEW BOX, THAT HAS NEVER BEEN OPENED.  But it was sold previously.

You can not say, that just because an item was sold, removes the NEW part of that item.  That is untrue and unfair to the retailer.  And no retailer would ever do business that way if they had to take losses continually based on those facts.

Only when an item is indeed used, should that item have to be sold as USED.  In your argument, car dealers would never be allowed to let customers test drive the vehicles because that means they were used by someone else.

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Slider44

There is a  clear difference between purchase and going to a store and handling a camera.

If a customer returns a purchased camera then it becomes a used item or Open Box item and it should be marked and discounted.

If you handle and check out a brand new camera in the store it still is in the possession of the store and therefore still new, no sales transaction happened.

That is not in question.  I am sure B&H Photo does the same.

What is in question from the OP, is the accusation that all returns should be resold as USED, or OPEN BOX.  That simply is never going to be the situation, and he even posted the direct quote from Henry himself with Henry explaining that the determination of USED, OPEN BOX, or NEW is based on the situation and circumstances, and that is 110% true.

I have given at least two examples of situations where the camera was sold, but never even opened, much less used.  Those returns would obviously be resold as NEW.  Because they are!

The store must determine what has been used, opened, or not.  Not the consumer who has NO IDEA of the circumstances surrounding the return.

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Slider44

WHAT?  I hope you are kidding.  It only becomes USED when it is USED.  This is getting silly now.

I am flabbergasted.  Seriously.  So, I can come into your store, handle the item, shoot off a few snaps, and give it back to you and it is still NEW.  Yet an unopened box that was sold and shipped to a customer that never opens it when they receive it, and just returns it, has to be considered used when returned????  I hope your kidding.

So, an unopened and unused camera is used because it was SOLD.  Really?

Total hogwash.  Again, you are confusing SALE, with the classification of the item.  Just because an item is sold, does not mean it was ever used, much less opened.

So, I ask you the same question.  You own a camera store, and I come in and buy a brand spanking new camera in a box that has never been opened.  It get home and change my mind.  I turn around and come back to your store to get a full and complete credit.  Are you trying to tell me that you can not then put that item back on your shelf as NEW?  Are you saying to me that you must now list that item as USED OR OPEN BOX?

If that is what you are saying, I am going to Best Buy today to buy a camera.  Take it home, and then return it for a refund.  I am then going to go back and make them sell it for USED, or OPEN BOX.  (Keep in mind, that Best Buy will give me a complete and full refund if the box is unopened and in original condition).

Sometimes I think people complain just to hear themselves complain, without ever thinking about what they are saying.  I can not fathom the retail world if every sold (and returned) item would have to be resold as used or open box.   That is simply unrealistic!

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Slider44

Bob,

Your comments have given me hope that the world has not gone completely mad.

Thank you.

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Slider44

I am not complaining. You are the one going on and on an on with this nonsense..