X-trans sensor problem?

Started Jan 24, 2013 | Discussions
Ryan Williams
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to seukel, Jan 24, 2013

Sweet Jesus, this again? There are literally dozens of threads which examine this issue in immense detail, and once again the same posters are posting the same examples. Maybe a mod should compile this lot together and pin the post to the top as a long-term reference?

Here are some X-E1 35mm shots at ISO 3200 with virtually no processing apart from reducing the sharpening which exacerbates the impression of smearing.

Lightroom

OOC JPEG

Capture One

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drent
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 24, 2013

I have similar pictures made in nature. No problem, no artifacts with OOC jpegs. Tried RAW in C1 and  LR4. The latter showed these artifacts. So it is not a general problem, pffffffff.

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Ryan Williams
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to drent, Jan 24, 2013

Lightroom has issues with colour smearing more than detail smearing, which is the main reason I work with OOC JPEGs instead. If you have high colour contrast Lightroom seems to get it wrong, for example the often-used example of a street sign's letting becoming the same colour as the surrounding sign.

What issues Lightroom does have with detail smearing is negligible for my needs, but the colour issues are too much of a concern for me to overlook. If you must use Lightroom for RAW, make sure you turn the sharpness up to a radius (or whatever the second slider is) of 3. Using the default radius exaggerates if not causes the detail smearing, a separate problem to colour smearing IMO.

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Photozopia
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 24, 2013

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz - huh, what? Oh, RAW, Adobe, LR, C1 etc. ..... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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framus
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to Photozopia, Jan 24, 2013

Photozopia wrote:

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz - huh, what? Oh, RAW, Adobe, LR, C1 etc. ..... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

+1

-Framus

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viking79
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to Zardoz, Jan 24, 2013

Zardoz wrote:

viking79 wrote:

"A product is the total package. Having a newfangled sensor in a camera is 1/2 of the product, the other half being high quality RAW conversion support required for the innovative sensor design. Hence the product has been shipped unfinished."

And other similar comments, he isn't helpful at all in how you can reduce the problems at all in Adobe Lightroom (change sharpening settings). The blog is trying to pin this on Fuji and spinning it in the worst possible light. Maybe has a vendetta against Fuji, or just wanting to get attention on his blog.

Considering the positive comments included on that blog in reviews of the X-Pro1 and X-E1, I find it difficult to see evidence of a vendetta or "spinning things in the worst possible light". It's documenting a flaw, and providing evidence of said flaw. If Adobe release an update that provides significantly improved X-Trans raw processing, I would not be surprised to see an update showing the improvement on that blog.

Fuji (PR) claim to have supplied the relevant details to Adobe and others, but clearly throwing information over the wall isn't enough. According to Fuji themselves, they took years to develop the raw processing in house. It's ultimately Fuji (and Fuji's customers) that are hurt by poor support for X-Trans raw files.

I agree, Fuji could have done a better job making sure Adobe had it right.  It really isn't their job, but so many people use Adobe products that I think it is important.  However, if another company comes a long and implements better Fuji RAW processing, people will switch from Adobe, so it is in their best interests too.

My point was just looking at the one blog post on the site, and it sounds like it is a fatal flaw for the Fuji X Trans, when in fact it is just growing pains for both Adobe and Fuji.  I think maybe the blogger was a bit harsh on Fuji, since RAW support is a 3rd party thing, people should really complain to Adobe and they will maybe work with Fuji to fix it.

I don't have a problem with documenting a flaw, but it still would have been more helpful if the blogger said some ideas to mitigate the issue (like increasing sharpening radius, decreasing default sharpening amount, etc).

Eric

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Les Lammers
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to viking79, Jan 24, 2013

viking79 wrote:

shonxiaohe wrote:

just hit the post below. since I am considering X100s, I wonder does X-trans sensor really has such bad effect as shown below? quite unbelivable...

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20121209_2-FujiXE1-artifacts-reader-comments.html

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oldcamel

The problem is mostly with Adobe, it is a lot less visible in JPEG out of the cameras. You can also adjust your sharpening settings in Lightroom to reduce it some. It only shows up in certain situations, like low ISO landscapes and certain textures. The samples they have on the blog are the worst I have ever seen.

Eric

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"DIGLLOYD: I  completely agree that on a gross level the files are superlative (color rendition and noise and dynamic range). If this fine detail issue can be licked by a RAW converter, then the Fuji X-E1 and X-Pro1 would become cameras I would recommend heartily."

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djpearlman
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to Les Lammers, Jan 25, 2013

I use Silkypix's standalone raw converter  or RPP (for Mac only), for basic highlight recovery, white balance etc, no sharpening, then save as TIFF and further PP in ACR, works great, no artifacts...

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Tom Schum
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Yay for the OOC JPGs!
In reply to Ryan Williams, Jan 25, 2013

Ryan Williams wrote:

Lightroom has issues with colour smearing more than detail smearing, which is the main reason I work with OOC JPEGs instead. If you have high colour contrast Lightroom seems to get it wrong, for example the often-used example of a street sign's letting becoming the same colour as the surrounding sign.

What issues Lightroom does have with detail smearing is negligible for my needs, but the colour issues are too much of a concern for me to overlook. If you must use Lightroom for RAW, make sure you turn the sharpness up to a radius (or whatever the second slider is) of 3. Using the default radius exaggerates if not causes the detail smearing, a separate problem to colour smearing IMO.

I used to prefer a Sigma camera, which really requires you to shoot and process raws, so using my X-E1 has been an eye-opener for me.

The out of camera JPGs are a real bright spot. I can sharpen, crop, brighten, etc in Photoshop Elements and I have never seen the weird artifacts. There can be a little bit of color smearing but I don't find it bothersome. Plus, Elements is far less money than the higher end stuff such as Lightroom.

I haven't bothered to try processing any raws and if I did I would use the Silkypix product packaged with my X-E1 (after all silkypix downloadable upgrades). The JPGs are good enough for me, and it is a breeze to post process them in Elements.

Here is a shot showing some color smearing around the Washington Monument (seen in the far left side of this image).  This image has "had work done" on it in Elements, and the contrast and color increases done in Elements seem to have brought out a little bit of smearing.  Pro-Neg Hi film emulation, 18-55 zoom:



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Joachim Gerstl
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 25, 2013

shonxiaohe wrote:

viking79 wrote:

shonxiaohe wrote:

just hit the post below. since I am considering X100s, I wonder does X-trans sensor really has such bad effect as shown below? quite unbelivable...

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20121209_2-FujiXE1-artifacts-reader-comments.html

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oldcamel

The problem is mostly with Adobe, it is a lot less visible in JPEG out of the cameras. You can also adjust your sharpening settings in Lightroom to reduce it some. It only shows up in certain situations, like low ISO landscapes and certain textures. The samples they have on the blog are the worst I have ever seen.

Eric

Thanks for the replies, Eric, so if it is also visible even in out-of-camera JPEG (through less), then it is not just Adobe's problem -- since OOC JPEG is produced by Fuji.

and, why low ISO is affected instead of high-ISO? the same problem should be there always if any.

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oldcamel

The images are not real. I own a X-Pro 1 in this guy tries to make a joke by using a "oil painting" filter on a photo. That somebody can believe that the camera takes such an image seems strange to me.

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Zardoz
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to Joachim Gerstl, Jan 25, 2013

Joachim Gerstl wrote:

The images are not real. I own a X-Pro 1 in this guy tries to make a joke by using a "oil painting" filter on a photo. That somebody can believe that the camera takes such an image seems strange to me.

False.

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drent
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to Zardoz, Jan 25, 2013

But it is art! 

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plevyadophy
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Well documented and tested problem, more examples Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 25, 2013

shonxiaohe wrote:

just hit the post below. since I am considering X100s, I wonder does X-trans sensor really has such bad effect as shown below? quite unbelivable...

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20121209_2-FujiXE1-artifacts-reader-comments.html

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oldcamel

It's a well tested and very well documented issue (by those who don't follow the crowd). If you shoot mainly portraits and such like you won't come up against any x-trans sensor issues. It seems to be an issue that Fuji themselves can't get over (their in-cam JPEGs have issues, albeit to a lesser extent than all other processing methods, and the supplied raw processor has issues, evern more so than the in-camera JPEG).

See here (and also follow the links) for a very detailed analysis of the issues with processing images from the sensor: http://chromasoft.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/fuji-x-pro1-lightroom-and-silkypix.html

I think in time, a year or two or more I guess, we will have the perfect algorithm for processing x-trans sensor captures.

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miniTO
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 26, 2013

This isn't anything new Adobe Camera Raw cannot properly process Fuji Raw files simple and that...

done and done...

If you want proper RAW processing and are willing to spend some time learning new software try either Silkypix DP5 or Capture One...

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JimMc
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 26, 2013

How much of a problem is this when shooting jpegs? Thanks.

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Chris Dodkin
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to JimMc, Jan 26, 2013

JimMc wrote:

How much of a problem is this when shooting jpegs? Thanks.

It's not a problem

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JimMc
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to Chris Dodkin, Jan 26, 2013

Chris Dodkin wrote:

JimMc wrote:

How much of a problem is this when shooting jpegs? Thanks.

It's not a problem

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Thanks, Chris. I'm planning to purchase the X100s.

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fluxism
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 26, 2013

personally, I think the x-trans sensor simply creates a different-looking file, which has advantages and/or drawbacks, depending on what you expect, and what you compare it to.

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plevyadophy
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to JimMc, Jan 26, 2013

JimMc wrote:

Chris Dodkin wrote:

JimMc wrote:

How much of a problem is this when shooting jpegs? Thanks.

It's not a problem

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Thanks, Chris. I'm planning to purchase the X100s.

Actually, it is a problem ............ but just less so: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50736159

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JimMc
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to plevyadophy, Jan 26, 2013

plevyadophy wrote:

JimMc wrote:

Chris Dodkin wrote:

JimMc wrote:

How much of a problem is this when shooting jpegs? Thanks.

It's not a problem

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Thanks, Chris. I'm planning to purchase the X100s.

Actually, it is a problem ............ but just less so: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50736159

I was glancing at the dpreview review of the Pro1 and noticed this. It's rare that this probem occurs.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujifilm-x-pro1/16

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