X-trans sensor problem?

Started Jan 24, 2013 | Discussions
shonxiaohe
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X-trans sensor problem?
Jan 24, 2013

just hit the post below. since I am considering X100s, I wonder does X-trans sensor really has such bad effect as shown below? quite unbelivable...

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20121209_2-FujiXE1-artifacts-reader-comments.html

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oldcamel

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Mr Gadget
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 24, 2013

If it is quite unbelievable, then dont believe it.

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sgoldswo
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 24, 2013

This post looks like cobblers and is. There are artefacts if one processes through ACR or LR in the wrong way, but this guy makes a meal of it to get hits on his blog to generate traffic etc.

IMO no reason to disregard the X100S which is very much an improvement on the original BECAUSE of the x-trans sensor.

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viking79
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 24, 2013

shonxiaohe wrote:

just hit the post below. since I am considering X100s, I wonder does X-trans sensor really has such bad effect as shown below? quite unbelivable...

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20121209_2-FujiXE1-artifacts-reader-comments.html

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oldcamel

The problem is mostly with Adobe, it is a lot less visible in JPEG out of the cameras.  You can also adjust your sharpening settings in Lightroom to reduce it some.  It only shows up in certain situations, like low ISO landscapes and certain textures.  The samples they have on the blog are the worst I have ever seen.

Eric

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shonxiaohe
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to viking79, Jan 24, 2013

viking79 wrote:

shonxiaohe wrote:

just hit the post below. since I am considering X100s, I wonder does X-trans sensor really has such bad effect as shown below? quite unbelivable...

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20121209_2-FujiXE1-artifacts-reader-comments.html

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oldcamel

The problem is mostly with Adobe, it is a lot less visible in JPEG out of the cameras. You can also adjust your sharpening settings in Lightroom to reduce it some. It only shows up in certain situations, like low ISO landscapes and certain textures. The samples they have on the blog are the worst I have ever seen.

Eric

Thanks for the replies, Eric, so if it is also visible even in out-of-camera JPEG (through less), then it is not just Adobe's problem -- since OOC JPEG is produced by Fuji.

and, why low ISO is affected instead of high-ISO? the same problem should be there always if any.

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oldcamel

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deednets
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 24, 2013

shonxiaohe wrote:

just hit the post below. since I am considering X100s, I wonder does X-trans sensor really has such bad effect as shown below? quite unbelivable...

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20121209_2-FujiXE1-artifacts-reader-comments.html

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oldcamel

Bad sensor ... pity I have yet to see this in my pictures ...

Seems to me that whatever comes out gets bagged by somebody .. the banding issue on the D200, the autofocus on the Canon 1D MKIII (the one MKIII that was fast as but couldn#t focus properly) the D800 for fine tuning issues etc.

Will be you be happier to know that an issue can be replicated for the sensor or happier if it is a lot of tommy-rot? ...

I am enjoying the Fuji sensor immensely, but haven't done fabric tests, because, you know, I am not really into fabric-pixel-peeping these days .. have had 200% moire detection, - but couldn't find any ...

I don't use LR, I use - and have used - Capture One. Not sure as to hwo this translates through image processing or whether the results are the same OOC?? Will not follow this thread, will conduct my own tests and then decide whether or not it will matter to me ... have had too many of those threads ... never had the banding issue with my D200 but found the fine tuning on D800 a pain ... it seems to me there are some issues ... with every camera out there! Feel like a duck in the rain these days and decide whether this matters to me and to me only. I find the output quality of the X-Trans sensors incredibly good, fascinating colours and gentle roll-off between parts ...

The suggestion that the sensor is only good enough for 7Mpx is plain silly .. unless you are into patchwork and fabrics - and see this all the time ...

Here is a shot taken with X-E1 at 25.600 ASA ... terrible quality ... link to dpreview:

http://masters.galleries.dpreview.com.s3.amazonaws.com/2348599.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=14Y3MT0G2J4Y72K3ZXR2&Expires=1358990417&Signature=a7BgZustNQQ8L1RsUOodY9UIog8%3d

Cheers

Deed
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sgoldswo
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 24, 2013

shonxiaohe wrote:

Thanks for the replies, Eric, so if it is also visible even in out-of-camera JPEG (through less), then it is not just Adobe's problem -- since OOC JPEG is produced by Fuji.

and, why low ISO is affected instead of high-ISO? the same problem should be there always if any.

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oldcamel

I think you really have to push this OOC jpegs to see this. I never have in any of my own stuff. In any event processing through capture one doesn't give me any smearing (there are other artefacts if you go mad on detail sharpening but that's easily dealt with). This kind of result is the upside of the sensor -

perhaps you should search Flickr for some good results rather than dwelling on the scare stories?

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Zardoz
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 24, 2013

This is typical output from Adobe raw processing of Fuji raw files, especially when any amount of sharpening has been applied.  It's a real problem with Adobe's raw processing tools... other tools have different issues, but none are this severe.

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viking79
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 24, 2013

shonxiaohe wrote:

viking79 wrote:

shonxiaohe wrote:

just hit the post below. since I am considering X100s, I wonder does X-trans sensor really has such bad effect as shown below? quite unbelivable...

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20121209_2-FujiXE1-artifacts-reader-comments.html

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oldcamel

The problem is mostly with Adobe, it is a lot less visible in JPEG out of the cameras. You can also adjust your sharpening settings in Lightroom to reduce it some. It only shows up in certain situations, like low ISO landscapes and certain textures. The samples they have on the blog are the worst I have ever seen.

Eric

Thanks for the replies, Eric, so if it is also visible even in out-of-camera JPEG (through less), then it is not just Adobe's problem -- since OOC JPEG is produced by Fuji.

and, why low ISO is affected instead of high-ISO? the same problem should be there always if any.

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oldcamel

Adobe is much worse in how it deals with it. Consider anything in out of camera JPEG like minor sharpening artifacts and what adobe does it blatant incorrect processing. It is like Adobe applying 100 to sharpening when they should apply 25 for example.

Here are two Adobe LR samples, just different sharpening profiles

And here is the better Adobe one from above (left), compared to one from the camera (on right):

Note: Fuji picked a new file number for the file when I converted the RAW in camera. Fuji lets you develop RAW files after the fact in camera.

Note that the Adobe Lightroom version is way over-sharpened, and that is at 8. It is showing severe moire on the dial, etc. Even this bad I generally have no issue with the adobe conversion, but it does cause problems in some circumstances. I didn't try to match colors or anything between the two conversions.

The website is purposefully picking pictures to spin the worst possible light on the situation, over sharpened, with no attempt to reduce the artifacts.  Consider it a very single minded review on Adobe Lightroom, not the X-Trans sensor.  Yes, the XTrans behaves differently than a traditional Bayer sensor, that doesn't mean it is better or worse.  There are of course some tradeoffs with the different CFA.

Eric

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Chris Dodkin
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to Zardoz, Jan 24, 2013

Beg to differ - define typical?

Typical might mean that I had it in over half my shots?

Or a third?

Or a tenth?

Or 1 in 100?

Or 1 in 1000?

Or 1 in 10,000?

Please - don't go casually throwing around phrases like 'typical' just to try and score points...

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Zardoz
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to viking79, Jan 24, 2013

viking79 wrote:

The website is purposefully picking pictures to spin the worst possible light on the situation, over sharpened, with no attempt to reduce the artifacts.

Not really, there are plenty of other examples online that show the same issue.  For example, look at this at 100%:

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viking79
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In reply to Zardoz, Jan 24, 2013

Zardoz wrote:

viking79 wrote:

The website is purposefully picking pictures to spin the worst possible light on the situation, over sharpened, with no attempt to reduce the artifacts.

Not really, there are plenty of other examples online that show the same issue. For example, look at this at 100%:

This is from the linked blog "Here is the example of JPG without and with exaggerated sharpening to better see the problem." edit: I presume the posted one is with the added sharpening.

They are puposefully exaggerating the problem. I agree, the problem is there, not denying it, but there are ways to mitigate it. As your example clearly shows the problem is with Adobe ACR and not the sensor itself (as I presume the right image is from Fuji converter in camera?).

Eric

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Zardoz
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to viking79, Jan 24, 2013

viking79 wrote:

This is from the linked blog "Here is the example of JPG without and with exaggerated sharpening to better see the problem." edit: I presume the posted one is with the added sharpening.

They are puposefully exaggerating the problem. I agree, the problem is there, not denying it, but there are ways to mitigate it. As your example clearly shows the problem is with Adobe ACR and not the sensor itself (as I presume the right image is from Fuji converter in camera?).

It is quite clear from context that the quote is not attached to the images embedded in the blog post, but to images supplied via email to the blog author which we're not privy to.

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viking79
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In reply to Zardoz, Jan 24, 2013

Zardoz wrote:

viking79 wrote:

This is from the linked blog "Here is the example of JPG without and with exaggerated sharpening to better see the problem." edit: I presume the posted one is with the added sharpening.

They are puposefully exaggerating the problem. I agree, the problem is there, not denying it, but there are ways to mitigate it. As your example clearly shows the problem is with Adobe ACR and not the sensor itself (as I presume the right image is from Fuji converter in camera?).

It is quite clear from context that the quote is not attached to the images embedded in the blog post, but to images supplied via email to the blog author which we're not privy to.

The problem is your picture clearly shows the Fuji implementation is better at dealing with those artifacts, but the blog owner tries to pin this on Fuji.

"A product is the total package. Having a newfangled sensor in a camera is 1/2 of the product, the other half being high quality RAW conversion support required for the innovative sensor design. Hence the product has been shipped unfinished."

And other similar comments, he isn't helpful at all in how you can reduce the problems at all in Adobe Lightroom (change sharpening settings).  The blog is trying to pin this on Fuji and spinning it in the worst possible light.  Maybe has a vendetta against Fuji, or just wanting to get attention on his blog.

Eric

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Zardoz
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to viking79, Jan 24, 2013

viking79 wrote:

"A product is the total package. Having a newfangled sensor in a camera is 1/2 of the product, the other half being high quality RAW conversion support required for the innovative sensor design. Hence the product has been shipped unfinished."

And other similar comments, he isn't helpful at all in how you can reduce the problems at all in Adobe Lightroom (change sharpening settings). The blog is trying to pin this on Fuji and spinning it in the worst possible light. Maybe has a vendetta against Fuji, or just wanting to get attention on his blog.

Considering the positive comments included on that blog in reviews of the X-Pro1 and X-E1, I find it difficult to see evidence of a vendetta or "spinning things in the worst possible light".  It's documenting a flaw, and providing evidence of said flaw.  If Adobe release an update that provides significantly improved X-Trans raw processing, I would not be surprised to see an update showing the improvement on that blog.

Fuji (PR) claim to have supplied the relevant details to Adobe and others, but clearly throwing information over the wall isn't enough.  According to Fuji themselves, they took years to develop the raw processing in house.  It's ultimately Fuji (and Fuji's customers) that are hurt by poor support for X-Trans raw files.

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IrishhAndy
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 24, 2013

shonxiaohe wrote:

just hit the post below. since I am considering X100s, I wonder does X-trans sensor really has such bad effect as shown below? quite unbelivable...

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20121209_2-FujiXE1-artifacts-reader-comments.html

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oldcamel

Yes it is like that.

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A solution looking for a problem !

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shonxiaohe
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Re: X-trans sensor problem?
In reply to Zardoz, Jan 24, 2013

Zardoz wrote:

viking79 wrote:

The website is purposefully picking pictures to spin the worst possible light on the situation, over sharpened, with no attempt to reduce the artifacts.

Not really, there are plenty of other examples online that show the same issue. For example, look at this at 100%:

if the right panel is out-of-camera and the left panel is lightroom, then I think it is lightroom's problem and that would be a relief.

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oldcamel

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LaFonte
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In reply to shonxiaohe, Jan 24, 2013

shonxiaohe wrote:

Zardoz wrote:

viking79 wrote:

The website is purposefully picking pictures to spin the worst possible light on the situation, over sharpened, with no attempt to reduce the artifacts.

Not really, there are plenty of other examples online that show the same issue. For example, look at this at 100%:

if the right panel is out-of-camera and the left panel is lightroom, then I think it is lightroom's problem and that would be a relief.

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oldcamel

The left image shows pretty wrong processing - there is whole high frequency level missing. Printed it probably looks ok, but then we don't have to bother with x-trans if it is going to be processed like a casio.

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LaFonte
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In reply to IrishhAndy, Jan 24, 2013

IrishhAndy wrote:

shonxiaohe wrote:

just hit the post below. since I am considering X100s, I wonder does X-trans sensor really has such bad effect as shown below? quite unbelivable...

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20121209_2-FujiXE1-artifacts-reader-comments.html

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oldcamel

Yes it is like that.

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A solution looking for a problem !

Yes, every single image of that tree and the doll will ended up like that after processing in Lightroom. People with Fuji cameras go visit the tree from all around the world.

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seukel
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In reply to LaFonte, Jan 24, 2013

Yes, every single image of that tree and the doll will ended up like that after processing in Lightroom. People with Fuji cameras go visit the tree from all around the world.

And the doll has been stolen by the Fuji Guys.

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