GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless

Started Jan 20, 2013 | Discussions
Triggr Happy
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GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
Jan 20, 2013

Finally got my camera and first thing I did is check for viewfinder "issue" that some people claim exists.

I immediately realized that there is zero issue. Image in viewfinder is perfect, no smearing at all. People who see smearing don't understand basic optics.

If you move your eye off the center you get double vision, not smearing, because the edge of the viewfinder window frame gets in the way of image in the viewfinder. Image in the viewfinder is focused in your eye but the edge of the viewfinder frame which is closer to your eye is not in focus.

So the image looks out of focus on the sides or in the corners.

How do those people take pictures?

bluelemmy
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

I hadn't bothered to mention it here but my experience is exactly the same as yours. It's a non-issue. It isn't smearing at all.

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jim stirling
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

Triggr Happy wrote:

Finally got my camera and first thing I did is check for viewfinder "issue" that some people claim exists.

I immediately realized that there is zero issue. Image in viewfinder is perfect, no smearing at all. People who see smearing don't understand basic optics.

If you move your eye off the center you get double vision, not smearing, because the edge of the viewfinder window frame gets in the way of image in the viewfinder. Image in the viewfinder is focused in your eye but the edge of the viewfinder frame which is closer to your eye is not in focus.

So the image looks out of focus on the sides or in the corners.

How do those people take pictures?

I have no issues with either of my GH3 bodies and find the view through both perfectly clear. However this does not mean that through a quirk of vision or technique that  others have a very real issue. Obviously as with all mass produced items it is possible that there will be a certain percentage of cameras that are faulty. I agree that for many people the camera is not the issue per se but is down to their particular viewing method , and many will probably adapt to using the viewfinder without any problems.

Jim

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TheEye
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Sounds like a small exit pupil
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

Long eye relief and a large exit pupil are apparently too much to ask for in a modern camera. That's probably because the eyepiece would be comparatively large, and because most consumers have either forgotten what a good viewfinder is, or because they never looked through one in the first place anyway.

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jim stirling
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Re: Sounds like a small exit pupil
In reply to TheEye, Jan 20, 2013

TheEye wrote:

Long eye relief and a large exit pupil are apparently too much to ask for in a modern camera. That's probably because the eyepiece would be comparatively large, and because most consumers have either forgotten what a good viewfinder is, or because they never looked through one in the first place anyway.

My main cameras have been FF Nikon for several years and I am we'll used to a large viewfinder. I think it is mainly a matter of technique , even with the best binoculars or microscopes some people have a problem lining up their eyes.

JIm

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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

Triggr Happy wrote:

Finally got my camera and first thing I did is check for viewfinder "issue" that some people claim exists.

I immediately realized that there is zero issue. Image in viewfinder is perfect, no smearing at all. People who see smearing don't understand basic optics.

If you move your eye off the center you get double vision, not smearing, because the edge of the viewfinder window frame gets in the way of image in the viewfinder. Image in the viewfinder is focused in your eye but the edge of the viewfinder frame which is closer to your eye is not in focus.

So the image looks out of focus on the sides or in the corners.

How do those people take pictures?

The GH3 I have tested also have no issues on the EVF. But I use contact lenses and I have 99% of vision.


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Aleo Veuliah
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Re: Sounds like a small exit pupil
In reply to TheEye, Jan 20, 2013

TheEye wrote:

Long eye relief and a large exit pupil are apparently too much to ask for in a modern camera. That's probably because the eyepiece would be comparatively large, and because most consumers have either forgotten what a good viewfinder is, or because they never looked through one in the first place anyway.

I agree.


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clengman
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

Triggr Happy wrote:

Finally got my camera and first thing I did is check for viewfinder "issue" that some people claim exists.

I immediately realized that there is zero issue. Image in viewfinder is perfect, no smearing at all. People who see smearing don't understand basic optics.

If you move your eye off the center you get double vision, not smearing, because the edge of the viewfinder window frame gets in the way of image in the viewfinder. Image in the viewfinder is focused in your eye but the edge of the viewfinder frame which is closer to your eye is not in focus.

So the image looks out of focus on the sides or in the corners.

How do those people take pictures?

I don't have this camera, but I have read about this blurring issue. I also have vf-3 that I use on my e-pl1. I can attest that my evf is very sensitive to eye placement. If my eye is off center at all the vf appears to be very blurry.

I'm also very accustomed to using various oculars (Another hobby of mine is backyard astronomical observation, and my trade is biology research. I use a binocular microscope every day.) I can tell you with certainty that the issue I notice has nothing to do with eye relief or the size of the exit pupil (i.e. no "blacking out") or the physical edge of the vf impinging on my field of view. It seems to be completely a result of optical misalignment of eye, vf lens and vf display. It just looks blurry unless I look precisely down the center of the tube.

I can't tell you that I know this is the "issue" with the GH-3 since I've never seen the camera in person, but since I have witnessed a similar phenomenon firsthand, I can certainly believe these accounts. I agree though that if you're careful with eye placement it's not too much of an issue. It is annoying to me though that I have to be so careful about eye placement. I've used telescopes with very, very small exit pupils (very high magnification) that were less finicky to use than the vf-3.

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sea_dragon
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

Triggr Happy wrote:

Finally got my camera and first thing I did is check for viewfinder "issue" that some people claim exists.

I immediately realized that there is zero issue. Image in viewfinder is perfect, no smearing at all. People who see smearing don't understand basic optics.

If you move your eye off the center you get double vision, not smearing, because the edge of the viewfinder window frame gets in the way of image in the viewfinder. Image in the viewfinder is focused in your eye but the edge of the viewfinder frame which is closer to your eye is not in focus.

So the image looks out of focus on the sides or in the corners.

How do those people take pictures?

Hmmm... a bit arrogant calling those having issues clueless. But, I'm glad that YOUR camera is fine.

Anyway, I can tell you that on MY camera, it is NOT the edge of the viewfinder window causing the issue. It is the magnifier glass (or plastic) that has an extremely narrow sweet spot. The image distorts off center BEFORE the edge of the viewfinder even comes into play. Plus it isn't just "doubled". The "smearing" looks like multiple edges on things like the text overlay.

As I've just learned from TheEye's post above, it's called a small exit pupil. As a result, I believe that people with certain vision or eye characteristics have a problem. Me being one of them. I've pretty much accepted the fact that when wearing glasses, I will never see a nice sharp image from edge to edge because I can't get my eye close enough to the viewfinder.

If the exit pupil was larger, I would probably have no problem.

Oh, and I take pictures just fine thank you.

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brianf
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Re:I may be "slightly Clueless" :-)
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

Triggr Happy wrote:

Finally got my camera and first thing I did is check for viewfinder "issue" that some people claim exists.

I immediately realized that there is zero issue. Image in viewfinder is perfect, no smearing at all. People who see smearing don't understand basic optics.

If you move your eye off the center you get double vision, not smearing, because the edge of the viewfinder window frame gets in the way of image in the viewfinder. Image in the viewfinder is focused in your eye but the edge of the viewfinder frame which is closer to your eye is not in focus.

So the image looks out of focus on the sides or in the corners.

I have three Panasonic EVF's, a GH2 a GX1 with VF2 and the GH3, the GH2 and VF2 are quite tolerant of where my eye is and are clear the gh3 is only clear if I have my eye close and centered in the EVF.

Probably normal for a GH3 but not as tolerant of my eye position as the others two, mine is also colour blind, it can't display purple/violet but that is another issue.

Cheers.

Slightly clueless Brian

How do those people take pictures?

Possibly lucky, not and as clever as you

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Triggr Happy
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to sea_dragon, Jan 20, 2013

Maybe be arrogant, but not any more arrogant than those people posting about the "issue". When you start a thread with heading like "My camera has major problem", that's a bit arrogant too, isn't it?

sea_dragon wrote:

Hmmm... a bit arrogant calling those having issues clueless. But, I'm glad that YOUR camera is fine.

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sea_dragon
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

Triggr Happy wrote:

Maybe be arrogant, but not any more arrogant than those people posting about the "issue". When you start a thread with heading like "My camera has major problem", that's a bit arrogant too, isn't it?

Not if your camera does have a major problem.  Now saying "All GH3s have a major problem" is a bit arrogant for sure. 

Personally, I've only ever posted about either MY camera or ones that I've looked at in person.

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Sean Nelson
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

Triggr Happy wrote:

When you start a thread with heading like "My camera has major problem", that's a bit arrogant too, isn't it?

Sea_dragon is exactly right - it's perfectly reasonable to have an issue with your own camera, or to post some particular opinion as your own.

You become arrogant when you start inferring that other people's experiences or opinions are somehow wrong.

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mpgxsvcd
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

As far as I have seen no one has claimed that the EVF has a problem with anything but off center. The issue is that off center is barely off center. It creates the smearing/double image if your eye moves at all.

Is this something we are all imagining?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqteueoRRf4

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Big Ga
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to clengman, Jan 20, 2013

clengman wrote:


I can't tell you that I know this is the "issue" with the GH-3 since I've never seen the camera in person, but since I have witnessed a similar phenomenon firsthand, I can certainly believe these accounts.

A sensible reply.

What I find most fascinating with issues like this, is how they often do exist, but many people are unable to detect them by themselves.

Sure, sometimes there are differences between different units, so one can be defective, and another one isn't. But I've far too often seen constant design flaws or irregularities be blatantly obvious to some people, but be totally missed by others. Its just so strange.

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Marco Cinnirella
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

Triggr Happy wrote:

Finally got my camera and first thing I did is check for viewfinder "issue" that some people claim exists.

I immediately realized that there is zero issue. Image in viewfinder is perfect, no smearing at all. People who see smearing don't understand basic optics.

If you move your eye off the center you get double vision, not smearing, because the edge of the viewfinder window frame gets in the way of image in the viewfinder. Image in the viewfinder is focused in your eye but the edge of the viewfinder frame which is closer to your eye is not in focus.

So the image looks out of focus on the sides or in the corners.

How do those people take pictures?

Very arrogant OP - I experience this blur issue with my GH3 yet have no problems at all with these EVFs:- G5, GH1, LVF-2, VF-2, Sony a57.

Please explain this?

congrats that you have no problems but why paint anyone who does as an idiot?

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Francis Carver
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Connecting external EVFs & LCD/OLED Monitors to GH3 via HDMI
In reply to sea_dragon, Jan 20, 2013

sea_dragon wrote:

Hmmm... a bit arrogant calling those having issues 'clueless.'

Couldn't agree with you more.

Anyway, I can tell you that on MY camera, it is NOT the edge of the viewfinder window causing the issue. It is the magnifier glass (or plastic) that has an extremely narrow sweet spot. The image distorts off center BEFORE the edge of the viewfinder even comes into play. Plus it isn't just "doubled". The "smearing" looks like multiple edges on things like the text overlay.

As I've just learned from TheEye's post above, it's called a small exit pupil. As a result, I believe that people with certain vision or eye characteristics have a problem. Me being one of them. I've pretty much accepted the fact that when wearing glasses, I will never see a nice sharp image from edge to edge because I can't get my eye close enough to the viewfinder.

If the exit pupil was larger, I would probably have no problem. Oh, and I take pictures just fine thank you.

Makes perfect sense to me. Also, I understand you can always interface with the GH3 a high-end external electronic VF or a high-end LCD or OLED screen, such as something like this:

http://www.smallhd.com/products/dp7-pro/dp7-pro.html

No GH3 EVF issues that way, for sure.

I am so used to optical VFs in still and film cameras, and in the film cameras an OVF is actually WORKING even when you are recording filmed sequences with the camera. Not so with DSLRs, of course. I could never warm up to the tiny EVFs in digital cameras, but I love the LCD screens with the LCD VF loupes, and of course for the better cameras that fact that you can connect external high-end quality EVFs and LCD/OLED monitors to it for critical framing and particularly focusing.

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94
94
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Re: Sounds like a small exit pupil
In reply to Aleo Veuliah, Jan 20, 2013

Aleo Veuliah wrote:

TheEye wrote:

Long eye relief and a large exit pupil are apparently too much to ask for in a modern camera. That's probably because the eyepiece would be comparatively large, and because most consumers have either forgotten what a good viewfinder is, or because they never looked through one in the first place anyway.

I agree.


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And I agree. It's something that any experienced user of rifle scopes should recognize. The right distance from the view and correct alignment of the eye's pupil with the optical center of the exit view and you get the best the optic can offer. Anything else will appear, small, distorted, or smeared if either the eye or the subject is moving.

Just adjust the diopter to your eye's focal ability and look through the center and fullest frame. Keep that alignment regardless whether the subject is moving or still. It becomes habitual pretty quickly most of the time if there are no bad habits to overcome.

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Francis Carver
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Laws of optics for using an EVF
In reply to 94, Jan 20, 2013

94 wrote:

It's something that any experienced user of rifle scopes should recognize. The right distance from the view and correct alignment of the eye's pupil with the optical center of the exit view and you get the best the optic can offer. Anything else will appear, small, distorted, or smeared if either the eye or the subject is moving.

Just adjust the diopter to your eye's focal ability and look through the center and fullest frame. Keep that alignment regardless whether the subject is moving or still. It becomes habitual pretty quickly most of the time if there are no bad habits to overcome.

Pretty weird and off-putting that one has to adhere to the LAWS OF OPTICS when using an ELECTRONIC VIEWFINDER.

If you are doing hectic paced shooting, particularly fast paced video shooting, your eye may slide left/right/up/down by 1/10th of an inch easily from the perfect central axis of the EVF -- what then?

Personally, I am fan now of using LCD VF loupes on the LCD screen and leave the EVF the heck alone. The GH3's EVF is at least of a very nice size, but there are others that are only 0.2-inch diagonal -- who are those intended for, I wonder -- squirrels?

Connecting an external high-end EVF or LCD/OLED screen to the camera via HDMI is another option, but then you need to juice-up that external device with another battery.

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IrishhAndy
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Re: GH-3 Viewfinder "issue" - product of clueless
In reply to Triggr Happy, Jan 20, 2013

Triggr Happy wrote:

Finally got my camera and first thing I did is check for viewfinder "issue" that some people claim exists.

I immediately realized that there is zero issue. Image in viewfinder is perfect, no smearing at all. People who see smearing don't understand basic optics.

If you move your eye off the center you get double vision, not smearing, because the edge of the viewfinder window frame gets in the way of image in the viewfinder. Image in the viewfinder is focused in your eye but the edge of the viewfinder frame which is closer to your eye is not in focus.

So the image looks out of focus on the sides or in the corners.

How do those people take pictures?

You can't get double vidion with onr eye

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A solution looking for a problem !

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