D5200 Best in Class

Started Jan 18, 2013 | Discussions
Reilly Diefenbach
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D5200 Best in Class
Jan 18, 2013

Another home run for Nikon:

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/01/18/nikon-d5200-dxomark-score-better-than-the-d3200.aspx/#more-52134

High ISO a bit better than the D7000 with equal DR of 13.9 stops.

Nikon D5200 Nikon D7000
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bseng
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Re: I really want this
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Jan 18, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Another home run for Nikon:

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/01/18/nikon-d5200-dxomark-score-better-than-the-d3200.aspx/#more-52134

High ISO a bit better than the D7000 with equal DR of 13.9 stops.

I want this camera soooo bad.  Unfortunately I picked up a D5100 recently due to the deep discounts.

Some improvements I've noticed over the D5100:

*Ability to turn on a grid in optical viewfinder for composition

*AF and metering system from the D7000

*One extra button on the top plate

*8 million extra pixels of definition

*FULL manual control over exposure settings in movie mode

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Horshack
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D5200 has shadow banding
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Jan 18, 2013

I've only played with a few D5200 NEFs but the one I did have with deep shadows exhibited significant horizontal banding after only 2 1/2 stops of shadow pushing. Unless that was specific to that one body this means the effective low ISO DR of the D5200 is below the previous generation, at least when used without noise debanding software.

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davefootball123
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Re: D5200 Best in Class
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Jan 18, 2013

Seems to have virtually identical performance to the D7000 16.2mp sensor with an extra 8mp's.

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: D5200 has shadow banding
In reply to Horshack, Jan 18, 2013

Just a cursory exposure push of one of the sample jpgs in LR 4 shows no such problem, at least on this shot.  This is more than shadows should be pulled, as a generalization:

Outrigger

Plus 2.82

This is outstanding, folks.



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mosswings
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Re: D5200 Best in Class
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Jan 18, 2013

Yes, Nikon did do its homework:



The D5200 is no worse than the D7K, which is a relief. This is print DR, so we are seeing some advantages of downrezzing to 8MP. If we look at screen DR (per pixel):

We start losing a little bit at the low ISO end.

What I see here is definitely not a "home run", but rather Nikon not committing an error like it appeared to be doing with the D3200. It found a way around the small performance degradations that the 24MP EXMOR sensors suffered over their 16MP kin. Unless Nikon has yet another sensor technology up its sleeve for the D7200, we now know that the D5200 generation will not suffer anything from its 50% increase in pixel density. We can breath a sigh of relief. But the improvements we see in these DXO plots are at best marginal.

I'm mostly concerned about how these cameras operate in the ISO 400-1200 range, because they will be coupled with a slow consumer lens most typically (and, in my case, almost always for the sake of travel lightness and bulk), so ISO will be the thing that has to be raised to obtain similar per-pixel sharpness if shooting handheld. The D5200 will give up nothing when printed over the D7000; on screen, less than 1/3 stop at ISO 100, and nothing above that.

A home run in my definition would be a DR performance improvement exceeding the increase in resolution. That way, the benefits of that higher resolution could still be realized at handholding shutterspeeds and within the limits of handholding steadiness. A home run would be something that makes an f4-f5.6 DX travel zoom more useable in low light (again, travel). A home run would be the performance increase we saw in spades between the D80 and D90 generation, and to a lesser extent between the D90 and D7K generation.

What these tests tell me is that we haven't moved the bulk technology bar much from the EXMOR breakthroughs. And that we may not going forward. The only way to do that will be to size up the sensor.

Therefore, we have to stop evaluating based on imaging chain so much and look at how the entire camera solves the problems the photographer needs solved (even though s/he may not be aware they need solving). Higher resolutions? Sure, but how do you maintain the camera's performance in the field? Why, at this level of performance, is there not a way of field calibrating AF? Why, especially at the entry-level, doesn't the camera do this for you? And so forth. Nikon and Canon need to pay attention to more than just imaging chain and AF. This is where mirrorless will eventually win the day. Not today, but very soon. In the process of solving practical useability and reliability problems for the consumer, the manufacturers will solve the manufacturability and customer service issues as well.

A home run, Reilly? Not in my playbook. A solid 2-base hit, something that had to happen to stay in the game. Taken from the total system perspective, more like a strategic bunt.

I really like this camera from the standpoint that it offers so much of what the D7000 does (better AF, mostly) in a more convenient size for travel with smaller travel zooms.  But it's still a giant compared to the OMD, and the OMD makes really nice images. If Oly solves the continuous AF issues and the EVF tearing, well, DX better hope it has some superstars on its bench.

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Horshack
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Re: D5200 has shadow banding
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Jan 18, 2013

JPEGs aren't suitable for banding testing because their limited tonality clips blacks, which hides the banding. Here's a raw sample, pushed 5 stops in LR3 to make the banding easier to see:

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: D5200 Best in Class
In reply to mosswings, Jan 18, 2013

A home run, Reilly? Not in my playbook. A solid 2-base hit, something that had to happen to stay in the game. Taken from the total system perspective, more like a strategic bunt.

Wow, you are hard to please.  A camera that can produce a picture that few would be able to tell from a D800e, having equal DR, at least on paper, and outstanding color.  For $899, destined to be a lot less?  Are you kidding me?  Nobody even dreamed of this kind of picture quality at that price a few short years ago. I would consider that a home run in anyone's book.

For my purposes on a 1080p monitor, 24MP is about as low as I want to look at critically for landscape or other scenario including lots of fine detail. With 4K monitors this year and in the future, this little unit will provide enough pixels to avoid being leapfrogged by viewing technology, as has happened repeatedly in the past, to say nothing of the huge prints that could be cranked out.

This D5200 should be able to produce results similar to a Canon 5DII at $3000, only with much better dynamic range and little to no banding.  You can complain about missing features all you want, but you're not paying for them, you'll just have to ante up for the D7200.  If you put this thing on a tripod or in a steady grip with the kit lens, you're three quarters of the way to a technically great shot, to say nothing of the 40G, 35 1.8 or the 16-85VR.

I've got no dog in this fight, as I'm already geared up, but I'm excited for all DXers to see what can be done with this affordable tech.

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: D5200 has shadow banding
In reply to Horshack, Jan 18, 2013

Five stops is ridiculous.  What camera would you ever push that hard?

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Horshack
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Re: D5200 has shadow banding
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Jan 18, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Five stops is ridiculous. What camera would you ever push that hard?

It shows up at 2 1/2 stops - I used 5 for this example because some run with  uncalibrated monitors and may not see it. Even at 8 stops the D90/D5000 exhibits no banding at all and the D7000/D5100 exhibits only a very tiny amount that's barely noticeable.

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: D5200 has shadow banding
In reply to Horshack, Jan 18, 2013

If you're pushing much over two stops, you've not done your job behind the camera, it seems to me.  This is the kind of testing that maybe shouldn't be done, like test driving a Honda at 5000RPM in first gear.

But I'll certainly take the link to the raws if you have it and have a look.  If anyone reading this forum owns a D5200 and can dropbox a raw for us which contains deep shadow, it might prove instructive.

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davefootball123
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Re: D5200 has shadow banding
In reply to Horshack, Jan 18, 2013

Horshack wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Five stops is ridiculous. What camera would you ever push that hard?

It shows up at 2 1/2 stops - I used 5 for this example because some run with uncalibrated monitors and may not see it. Even at 8 stops the D90/D5000 exhibits no banding at all and the D7000/D5100 exhibits only a very tiny amount that's barely noticeable.

I disagree with your D90/D5000 statement. 8 stops? No way. I've tried to pull shadows back with my D90...it does good...but my D7000 is superior.

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Horshack
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Re: D5200 has shadow banding
In reply to davefootball123, Jan 18, 2013

davefootball123 wrote:

I disagree with your D90/D5000 statement. 8 stops? No way. I've tried to pull shadows back with my D90...it does good...but my D7000 is superior.

The D7000/D5100 is superior to the D90/D5000 in absolute noise levels/DR but unlike the D90/D5000 it's not completely banding free.

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Horshack
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Re: D5200 has shadow banding
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Jan 18, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

If you're pushing much over two stops, you've not done your job behind the camera, it seems to me. This is the kind of testing that maybe shouldn't be done, like test driving a Honda at 5000RPM in first gear.

But I'll certainly take the link to the raws if you have it and have a look. If anyone reading this forum owns a D5200 and can dropbox a raw for us which contains deep shadow, it might prove instructive.

I got the raws from here: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1176318/0#11213481

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blue_cheese
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Re: D5200 has shadow banding
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Jan 18, 2013

I have a honda.... and given that the second lobe profile on the cam actuates at 4500 RPM it would indicated that 5000rpm is a place you would want to be.... not sure about the 1st gear bit.... but.... maybe you are going uphill....

Im rambling now....

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mosswings
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Re: D5200 Best in Class
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Jan 18, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

A home run, Reilly? Not in my playbook. A solid 2-base hit, something that had to happen to stay in the game. Taken from the total system perspective, more like a strategic bunt.

Wow, you are hard to please. A camera that can produce a picture that few would be able to tell from a D800e, having equal DR, at least on paper, and outstanding color. For $899, destined to be a lot less? Are you kidding me? Nobody even dreamed of this kind of picture quality at that price a few short years ago. I would consider that a home run in anyone's book.

For my purposes on a 1080p monitor, 24MP is about as low as I want to look at critically for landscape or other scenario including lots of fine detail. With 4K monitors this year and in the future, this little unit will provide enough pixels to avoid being leapfrogged by viewing technology, as has happened repeatedly in the past, to say nothing of the huge prints that could be cranked out.

This D5200 should be able to produce results similar to a Canon 5DII at $3000, only with much better dynamic range and little to no banding. You can complain about missing features all you want, but you're not paying for them, you'll just have to ante up for the D7200. If you put this thing on a tripod or in a steady grip with the kit lens, you're three quarters of the way to a technically great shot, to say nothing of the 40G, 35 1.8 or the 16-85VR.

I've got no dog in this fight, as I'm already geared up, but I'm excited for all DXers to see what can be done with this affordable tech.

Perhaps I am, Reilly, perhaps I am.  And yes, you're right, the D5200 is within a half-stop of the D800 or D600:

which makes me even LESS interested in Nikon's FF offerings. Particularly if that f4 16-85 comes out before I consider going for Sigma's new 17-70.

However, I stand by my basic point: the bar is moving slower in image quality improvement terms, it's already fantastic, and we shouldn't expect improvements like the ones that let the D90 and D7000 disrupt the SLR market.  So the game must now turn to making our lot as consumers easier. BMW sells cars based on performance at the limits, but Toyota makes repeat customers because their cars just work (recent difficulties noted, full disclosure, I own a Camry hybrid and understand why the would-buy-again rate is 83%).  I'm mostly a travel photographer, so my priorities are likely different than yours (or Roman's, for that matter).

I don't consider AF fine tuning a feature; more of an essential self-calibration function for extracting all that this superb imaging chain is capable of. That performance is why entry-level or enthusiasts alike buy this camera. The difference between the D5200 and D7000 should be more in the direct controllability of shooting parameters and build, not in the presence or absence of basic maintenance functionality. As I have pointed out before, this effectively translates into the minimum price of a Nikon DSLR being that of a D7000, because if one buys lower down the chain one has to spend the price differential in service charges for lens and camera calibration and matching. For heavens sake, if you need to make some distinction in this regard, offer the simpler one-parameter tuning feature in the D5200 and a more Canon-like multi-parameter tuning feature at the D7000 level and above.  Be kind to the entry-level folks, don't shortchange those who require smaller bodies delivering that high IQ, but offer meaningful increases in configurability in the upmarket bodies to those who know how to handle it. This is what consumer-oriented product differentiation entails.

You're focused on image quality, and no question that the D5200 offers it. I'm focused on whole package. Nikon, love 'em as I do, is becoming a bit annoying and predictable in this latter regard.

Nevertheless, I will take a good long look at the D5200 before next Fall's big trip.

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Andreas Berglund
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Re: D5200 Best in Class
In reply to mosswings, Jan 18, 2013

It is pretty clear from the RAW that if you push the D5200 beyond its limits it does exhibit banding. Big deal? Not on a consumer level camera like this I think. One just have to be more careful and nail the exposure with it so one doesn't have to push the images that far. From what I can see it holds detail and noise much better then the D3200 (I have a D3200). The images from the D5200 also seems to have more DR then the D3200, the images from the D3200 break down quite quickly when you start pulling them apart with sliders in ACR, the D5200 to me does a lot better. It is to be noted though that the image in question by Andrease was taken at ISO 100, so one has to be a little bit concerned at higher ISO.....

It does though raise a question for future cameras be they D7200 or D400, I will be looking really carefully at samples taken by these future (?) cameras.

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Andréas Berglund delapsus resurgam

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Mako2011
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Agreed
In reply to Andreas Berglund, Jan 18, 2013

Andreas Berglund wrote:

It is pretty clear from the RAW that if you push the D5200 beyond its limits it does exhibit banding.

Certainly seems to. Agreed that at this level not a big concern.

It does though raise a question for future cameras be they D7200 or D400, I will be looking really carefully at samples taken by these future (?) cameras.

Will also be watching closely. Banding at 3 stops would be a concern. I hope this is isolated to this particular sample or just the Toshiba sensor.

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rhlpetrus
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I agree wil Reilly Re: D5200 Best in Class
In reply to mosswings, Jan 18, 2013

mosswings wrote:

Yes, Nikon did do its homework:



The D5200 is no worse than the D7K, which is a relief. This is print DR, so we are seeing some advantages of downrezzing to 8MP. If we look at screen DR (per pixel):

We start losing a little bit at the low ISO end.

What I see here is definitely not a "home run", but rather Nikon not committing an error like it appeared to be doing with the D3200. It found a way around the small performance degradations that the 24MP EXMOR sensors suffered over their 16MP kin. Unless Nikon has yet another sensor technology up its sleeve for the D7200, we now know that the D5200 generation will not suffer anything from its 50% increase in pixel density. We can breath a sigh of relief. But the improvements we see in these DXO plots are at best marginal.

I'm mostly concerned about how these cameras operate in the ISO 400-1200 range, because they will be coupled with a slow consumer lens most typically (and, in my case, almost always for the sake of travel lightness and bulk), so ISO will be the thing that has to be raised to obtain similar per-pixel sharpness if shooting handheld. The D5200 will give up nothing when printed over the D7000; on screen, less than 1/3 stop at ISO 100, and nothing above that.

A home run in my definition would be a DR performance improvement exceeding the increase in resolution. That way, the benefits of that higher resolution could still be realized at handholding shutterspeeds and within the limits of handholding steadiness. A home run would be something that makes an f4-f5.6 DX travel zoom more useable in low light (again, travel). A home run would be the performance increase we saw in spades between the D80 and D90 generation, and to a lesser extent between the D90 and D7K generation.

What these tests tell me is that we haven't moved the bulk technology bar much from the EXMOR breakthroughs. And that we may not going forward. The only way to do that will be to size up the sensor.

Therefore, we have to stop evaluating based on imaging chain so much and look at how the entire camera solves the problems the photographer needs solved (even though s/he may not be aware they need solving). Higher resolutions? Sure, but how do you maintain the camera's performance in the field? Why, at this level of performance, is there not a way of field calibrating AF? Why, especially at the entry-level, doesn't the camera do this for you? And so forth. Nikon and Canon need to pay attention to more than just imaging chain and AF. This is where mirrorless will eventually win the day. Not today, but very soon. In the process of solving practical useability and reliability problems for the consumer, the manufacturers will solve the manufacturability and customer service issues as well.

A home run, Reilly? Not in my playbook. A solid 2-base hit, something that had to happen to stay in the game. Taken from the total system perspective, more like a strategic bunt.

I really like this camera from the standpoint that it offers so much of what the D7000 does (better AF, mostly) in a more convenient size for travel with smaller travel zooms. But it's still a giant compared to the OMD, and the OMD makes really nice images. If Oly solves the continuous AF issues and the EVF tearing, well, DX better hope it has some superstars on its bench.

I think you are missing it Moss. Doubling the pixel count from D90 to D5200 and getting about same IQ characteristics at full res is big accomplishment. We are actually reaching, step by step, the technological limits of bayer sensor tech. Don't expect much more from that. Likely the next step will fast enough processing to shoot 2 or 3 images within 1/250s or less and blending them. That's about the only way to go over the present limits of 13-14EV of DR. Same for noise and color. So, I concur with Reilly, Nikon and Toshiba have hit a home run from what you know so far. And thinkmabout the strategic POV of Nikon getting rid of the dependence, snfar, on Sony, for the best sensor tech.

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rhlpetrus
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Re: D5200 Best in Class
In reply to Andreas Berglund, Jan 18, 2013

Andreas Berglund wrote:

It is pretty clear from the RAW that if you push the D5200 beyond its limits it does exhibit banding. Big deal? Not on a consumer level camera like this I think. One just have to be more careful and nail the exposure with it so one doesn't have to push the images that far. From what I can see it holds detail and noise much better then the D3200 (I have a D3200). The images from the D5200 also seems to have more DR then the D3200, the images from the D3200 break down quite quickly when you start pulling them apart with sliders in ACR, the D5200 to me does a lot better. It is to be noted though that the image in question by Andrease was taken at ISO 100, so one has to be a little bit concerned at higher ISO.....

It does though raise a question for future cameras be they D7200 or D400, I will be looking really carefully at samples taken by these future (?) cameras.

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Andréas Berglund delapsus resurgam

Where did you get that info from (that pushing 3 stops will bring up banding)?

OK, I just read Horshack's post. This needs to be checked, it could be something else, not a sensor issue.

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Renato. http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/ OnExposure member http://www.onexposure.net/ Good shooting and good luck (after Ed Murrow)

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