Choosing a 3rd party ink

Started Jan 18, 2013 | Discussions
David Seys
Junior MemberPosts: 39
Like?
Choosing a 3rd party ink
Jan 18, 2013

A couple of weeks ago I started a thread asking about the new(ish) Thrift Ink from Jon Cone.

Since then I've read on here and elsewhere about other 3rd party inks.  Wondering if someone with experience using these inks can give their thoughts.  I'm definitely not a newbie to printing; I've been printing LF for over a decade.  Just new to 3rd party ink.  I'm tired of spending way too much money on OEM Epson inks for my various printers.

Since my thread a couple of weeks ago I also purchased an Epson 4880 to do along with my two 7600's, 1430 and Canon IPF8300.

Here is what I'm trying to accomplish.  I'd like to start using the 4880 for printing mainly wedding portraits and some canvas.  I live in Canada and the ink here for the 8300 is $5400 if I were to replace all 12 colours at 700ml.  Of course I'm not replacing all at once, but over the course of replacing them all that is WAY too much money.  Can't use the 7600 or 1430 for wedding photos since the quality isn't up to snuff on paper.  Since everything costs way more in Canada, and shipping, brokerage and duty fees are pretty high, it's hard to make any money with costs so high.  So I'm looking for a decent ink that won't bugger up my print heads for less than what I spend on Epson OEM and Canon OEM inks.

I was seriously considering the Thrift Ink but I'm worried about longevity issues and clients coming back.  What about elsewhere?  InkOwl is one I looked at.  Prices are good and they are also located in Canada so shipping is free (over $75) so no silly shipping and duty fees.  I noticed they also have a dye ink similar to Thrift Ink that supposedly resists fading and is much cheaper than pigment.  Any good?  Are the Thrift Inks from Cone something one could use for wedding photos without being scared of comebacks in a few years?  Are the dyes from InkOwl or elsewhere on the same quality level as the Cone Color pigments?  Just not sure what I should put into the new 4880 (and later 7600 and 1430), pigment or dye.  Like I said, if I can move the majority of the work to the 4880 and save the ink on the 8300 that would save me a small fortune.

Vernon D Rainwater
Forum ProPosts: 12,129
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to David Seys, Jan 18, 2013

David Seys wrote:

A couple of weeks ago I started a thread asking about the new(ish) Thrift Ink from Jon Cone.

Since then I've read on here and elsewhere about other 3rd party inks. Wondering if someone with experience using these inks can give their thoughts. I'm definitely not a newbie to printing; I've been printing LF for over a decade. Just new to 3rd party ink. I'm tired of spending way too much money on OEM Epson inks for my various printers.

Since my thread a couple of weeks ago I also purchased an Epson 4880 to do along with my two 7600's, 1430 and Canon IPF8300.

Here is what I'm trying to accomplish. I'd like to start using the 4880 for printing mainly wedding portraits and some canvas. I live in Canada and the ink here for the 8300 is $5400 if I were to replace all 12 colours at 700ml. Of course I'm not replacing all at once, but over the course of replacing them all that is WAY too much money. Can't use the 7600 or 1430 for wedding photos since the quality isn't up to snuff on paper. Since everything costs way more in Canada, and shipping, brokerage and duty fees are pretty high, it's hard to make any money with costs so high. So I'm looking for a decent ink that won't bugger up my print heads for less than what I spend on Epson OEM and Canon OEM inks.

I was seriously considering the Thrift Ink but I'm worried about longevity issues and clients coming back. What about elsewhere? InkOwl is one I looked at. Prices are good and they are also located in Canada so shipping is free (over $75) so no silly shipping and duty fees. I noticed they also have a dye ink similar to Thrift Ink that supposedly resists fading and is much cheaper than pigment. Any good? Are the Thrift Inks from Cone something one could use for wedding photos without being scared of comebacks in a few years? Are the dyes from InkOwl or elsewhere on the same quality level as the Cone Color pigments? Just not sure what I should put into the new 4880 (and later 7600 and 1430), pigment or dye. Like I said, if I can move the majority of the work to the 4880 and save the ink on the 8300 that would save me a small fortune.

Others will offer more helpful comments than I, however; I will make one comment.  Never would I print Wedding "final" Photos using any type inks other than Pigment.  Keeping a thriving business is not built upon using any type of inferior product.  Yes, I would use the best NON OEM inks but not inks that are not known or rated for good longevity.

All of my inks are Pigment types and all are NON OEM inks.

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
estherlee
New MemberPosts: 15
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to David Seys, Jan 18, 2013

I heard Cone has great inks and service, so I believe you wont have any problem with their latest inks. What I tried before many years ago was their cone K3-like inks and I did have yellow and L. cyan clogs many times. I think they had reformulated several times so it should be better now. I really like the glossy prints, not as glossy as OEM but good enough. I have also work on a 4800 printer that has inkrepbulic irk2 inks, 7 years from now, no problem. R3000 is with inkrepublic's CISS and irk4 inks, no problem too. very nice print and system.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
jtoolman
Senior MemberPosts: 4,523
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to David Seys, Jan 18, 2013

David Seys wrote:

A couple of weeks ago I started a thread asking about the new(ish) Thrift Ink from Jon Cone.

Since then I've read on here and elsewhere about other 3rd party inks. Wondering if someone with experience using these inks can give their thoughts. I'm definitely not a newbie to printing; I've been printing LF for over a decade. Just new to 3rd party ink. I'm tired of spending way too much money on OEM Epson inks for my various printers.

Since my thread a couple of weeks ago I also purchased an Epson 4880 to do along with my two 7600's, 1430 and Canon IPF8300.

Here is what I'm trying to accomplish. I'd like to start using the 4880 for printing mainly wedding portraits and some canvas. I live in Canada and the ink here for the 8300 is $5400 if I were to replace all 12 colours at 700ml. Of course I'm not replacing all at once, but over the course of replacing them all that is WAY too much money. Can't use the 7600 or 1430 for wedding photos since the quality isn't up to snuff on paper. Since everything costs way more in Canada, and shipping, brokerage and duty fees are pretty high, it's hard to make any money with costs so high. So I'm looking for a decent ink that won't bugger up my print heads for less than what I spend on Epson OEM and Canon OEM inks.

I was seriously considering the Thrift Ink but I'm worried about longevity issues and clients coming back. What about elsewhere? InkOwl is one I looked at. Prices are good and they are also located in Canada so shipping is free (over $75) so no silly shipping and duty fees. I noticed they also have a dye ink similar to Thrift Ink that supposedly resists fading and is much cheaper than pigment. Any good? Are the Thrift Inks from Cone something one could use for wedding photos without being scared of comebacks in a few years? Are the dyes from InkOwl or elsewhere on the same quality level as the Cone Color pigments? Just not sure what I should put into the new 4880 (and later 7600 and 1430), pigment or dye. Like I said, if I can move the majority of the work to the 4880 and save the ink on the 8300 that would save me a small fortune.

Well, CONE's claim is for a couple of decades. I assume longer if they are framed under glass. This ink has not been out too long so unless someone does accelerated fading tests, there is no way to accurately tell. I assume you have read his writeup on these inks.

http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.362672/sc.29/category.68511/.f

The ONLY reason I even considered it in the first place was because I wanted an ink that would allow me to produce great B&W on glossy baryta type papers due to the fact that they are K3 and bacause they are DYE would provide the best gloss. Unlike Pigment inks.

I am currently using them on a R2400 and a PRO3800.

I would only use Matte or art papers for Wedding photos so even Image Specialists inks which suffer from Magenta Gloss, would be perfect. In fact I use them on some of my printers. If your printing is only on Matte / Art papers I would seriously consider IS inks from Precission Colors in Canada.

http://precisioncolors.com/

His IS inks are pretty much 100% matched to OEM so you do not have to replace the complete set of colors. However, custom profiling to your specific papers will not hurt.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
David Seys
Junior MemberPosts: 39
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to jtoolman, Jan 18, 2013

Actually, I have Precision Colors ink in my 1430 right now. My only attempt with 3rd party ink so far. They're okay but needed custom profiles to look decent.

Funny, the website says Niagara Falls, but I drove to Toronto and bought them from him in person at his apartment building. He was quite knowledgable about printing, but running a business out of a run-down apartment building didn't seem too professional.

Anyone know what ink InkOwl is using? I think Cone is the only manufacturer of their own ink, correct? Everyone else is just re-packaging MIS or similar?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
jtoolman
Senior MemberPosts: 4,523
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to David Seys, Jan 18, 2013

David Seys wrote:

Actually, I have Precision Colors ink in my 1430 right now. My only attempt with 3rd party ink so far. They're okay but needed custom profiles to look decent.

Funny, the website says Niagara Falls, but I drove to Toronto and bought them from him in person at his apartment building. He was quite knowledgable about printing, but running a business out of a run-down apartment building didn't seem too professional.

Regardless, his products are very good and rise above whatever environment he is working in. He used to sell only through EBAY and may still be doing so, so it is not really an issue for me.

Anyone know what ink InkOwl is using? I think Cone is the only manufacturer of their own ink, correct? Everyone else is just re-packaging MIS or similar?

CONE's inks are custom made for him in ASIA. The company which I will not name only makes inks for Inkjetmall - CONE.

Other folks sell Image Specialists or other makes. It really is hard to tell as everyone wants to make yo believe that they are they own proprietary products which of course are not.

Inkjetfly may have their inks also custom formulated but they use Image Specialists MK due to its greater d-MAX.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
David Seys
Junior MemberPosts: 39
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to David Seys, Jan 18, 2013

Joe, since you are more experienced than I am with 3rd party ink, do you think Cone's ink (pigment version) is superior than the rest of them out there?  Would you use IS ink for wedding photos yourself?

And thanks for the help by the way!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Vernon D Rainwater
Forum ProPosts: 12,129
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to David Seys, Jan 18, 2013

David Seys wrote:

Joe, since you are more experienced than I am with 3rd party ink, do you think Cone's ink (pigment version) is superior than the rest of them out there? Would you use IS ink for wedding photos yourself?

And thanks for the help by the way!

I do hope I get this posted before Joe replies.  I believe he will answer that if printing on Matte type papers that IS inks are ok and he would use it.  If printing on Glossy, his selection would be Cone inks.

I look forward to seeing Joe's reply

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
David Seys
Junior MemberPosts: 39
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to Vernon D Rainwater, Jan 18, 2013

Thanks, Vernon.  I print mostly on canvas though.  When I do have to print on paper I almost always print on glossy - it's what the clients want.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
jtoolman
Senior MemberPosts: 4,523
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to David Seys, Jan 18, 2013

David Seys wrote:

Joe, since you are more experienced than I am with 3rd party ink, do you think Cone's ink (pigment version) is superior than the rest of them out there? Would you use IS ink for wedding photos yourself?

And thanks for the help by the way!

IS is only suitable on Matte or art papers and with custom profiles. I generate them with a X-Rire Colormunki Photo and the resulting images with the IS inks are great. Their MK is very very good. Deep blacks.

However as I said earlier the I.S. Magenta has a much lower gloss qualities so you will see gloss diferential on all but Matte and Art papers.

This is where the CONE pigment inks excel in. However you will pay somewhat more for them than I.S.

CONE pigment K3 and HDR inks are Micro Encapsulated just like their OEM counterparts, and that is one of the features where the extra costs come in.

For one of my PRO3800s with which I only print Matte work I am also using OCP German K3 Inks and with custom profiles I get excellent color and beautiful neutral B&Ws on Matte and Art papers and I would not hesitate to provide my customers with prints made with any of these inks.

Though OCP inks also suffer from lack of Magenta gloss. So again I only print Matte with them but then, I am printing at a cost of around $0.03 per ML with OCP.

My second PRO3800 is runing on CONE K3 DYE inks is reserved for whenever I need to print A2 size images on Glossy / Luster / Sating papers. With a claimed 20-30 year longevity, I see not problem in using them. Even a a good old C Kodacolor Print ( Wet Process ) will not last that long.

Joe

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
jtoolman
Senior MemberPosts: 4,523
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to Vernon D Rainwater, Jan 18, 2013

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

David Seys wrote:

Joe, since you are more experienced than I am with 3rd party ink, do you think Cone's ink (pigment version) is superior than the rest of them out there? Would you use IS ink for wedding photos yourself?

And thanks for the help by the way!

I do hope I get this posted before Joe replies. I believe he will answer that if printing on Matte type papers that IS inks are ok and he would use it. If printing on Glossy, his selection would be Cone inks.

I look forward to seeing Joe's reply

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

BINGO!!!!!! Yes Sir!!!

Though I will continue to use his DYE K3 inks as well. So far they are working out quite well. How durable they are, only time will tell.

Joe

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
jtoolman
Senior MemberPosts: 4,523
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to David Seys, Jan 18, 2013

David Seys wrote:

Thanks, Vernon. I print mostly on canvas though. When I do have to print on paper I almost always print on glossy - it's what the clients want.

Canvas is a great and classy material to print on!

I am surprised that your clients really want glossy! I find that in the East coast where I live they prefer a lightly textured art paper and find Glossy to look cheap. I use Red River Ultra Pro Satin and that's about as shinny as I tend to go.

Personally I do love a nice Glossy Print for some images and that's where the CONE dye inks come into play.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
David Seys
Junior MemberPosts: 39
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to jtoolman, Jan 18, 2013

I'm surprised too, but about 95% of the time they select glossy when printing on paper.  Canvas I usually finish in satin, but that is controlled when I spray.

Last question for you... for now   Would you personally print wedding photos with Cone Dye, if you were printing on glossy paper?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
jtoolman
Senior MemberPosts: 4,523
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to David Seys, Jan 18, 2013

David Seys wrote:

I'm surprised too, but about 95% of the time they select glossy when printing on paper. Canvas I usually finish in satin, but that is controlled when I spray.

Last question for you... for now Would you personally print wedding photos with Cone Dye, if you were printing on glossy paper?

If I was simply going on looks, I would. HOWEVER since we are not at all sure of the print longevity, I would have to go with CONE Pigment inks which produce great gloss results and the longevity is pretty much guaranteed.

The truth is that unfortunately a lot of marriages will not outlive even the dye ink prints but as a business, you can not take that chance.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Sal Baker
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,825Gear list
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to jtoolman, Jan 18, 2013

jtoolman wrote:

David Seys wrote:

Actually, I have Precision Colors ink in my 1430 right now. My only attempt with 3rd party ink so far. They're okay but needed custom profiles to look decent.

Funny, the website says Niagara Falls, but I drove to Toronto and bought them from him in person at his apartment building. He was quite knowledgable about printing, but running a business out of a run-down apartment building didn't seem too professional.

Regardless, his products are very good and rise above whatever environment he is working in. He used to sell only through EBAY and may still be doing so, so it is not really an issue for me.

Anyone know what ink InkOwl is using? I think Cone is the only manufacturer of their own ink, correct? Everyone else is just re-packaging MIS or similar?

CONE's inks are custom made for him in ASIA. The company which I will not name only makes inks for Inkjetmall - CONE.

Interesting.  The manufacturer's website (Neomark) says their encapsulated pigment inks are "supplied to professional photographers, billboard sign printing plants, and mostly aftermarket manufacturers of inkjet cartridges."  Sounds like their business extends beyond just Inkjetmall.

Sal

Other folks sell Image Specialists or other makes. It really is hard to tell as everyone wants to make yo believe that they are they own proprietary products which of course are not.

Inkjetfly may have their inks also custom formulated but they use Image Specialists MK due to its greater d-MAX.

 Sal Baker's gear list:Sal Baker's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Canon EOS 350D Fujifilm X-E2 Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
David Seys
Junior MemberPosts: 39
Like?
Re: Choosing a 3rd party ink
In reply to jtoolman, Jan 18, 2013

Got it.  Thanks!

Now to search for some refillable cartridges.  InkOwl has the complete set for $139 with free shipping.  Cone's cartridges are at least $100 more, and I know they're made in China too.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Petruska
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,766
Like?
Sal, from Jon Cone last week...
In reply to Sal Baker, Jan 18, 2013

Sal Baker wrote:

Interesting. The manufacturer's website (Neomark) says their encapsulated pigment inks are "supplied to professional photographers, billboard sign printing plants, and mostly aftermarket manufacturers of inkjet cartridges." Sounds like their business extends beyond just Inkjetmall.

Hi Bob,
The formulas at Neomark which we invented, and which Neomark carries the production for us, are available exclusively in the World by InkjetMall or its distributors.
Best regards,
Jon

Bob P.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Vernon D Rainwater
Forum ProPosts: 12,129
Like?
Re: Sal, from Jon Cone last week...
In reply to Petruska, Jan 18, 2013

Petruska wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

Interesting. The manufacturer's website (Neomark) says their encapsulated pigment inks are "supplied to professional photographers, billboard sign printing plants, and mostly aftermarket manufacturers of inkjet cartridges." Sounds like their business extends beyond just Inkjetmall.

Hi Bob,
The formulas at Neomark which we invented, and which Neomark carries the production for us, are available exclusively in the World by InkjetMall or its distributors.
Best regards,
Jon

Bob P.

It appears the information posted regarding the discussed (Neomark) website -- that perhaps the web site does not convey the complete story and full disclosure such as the quote posted in your reply.  I have no reason to doubt (even one word) from John Cone's comment.

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Petruska
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,766
Like?
Vernon....
In reply to Vernon D Rainwater, Jan 18, 2013

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

Petruska wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

Interesting. The manufacturer's website (Neomark) says their encapsulated pigment inks are "supplied to professional photographers, billboard sign printing plants, and mostly aftermarket manufacturers of inkjet cartridges." Sounds like their business extends beyond just Inkjetmall.

Hi Bob,
The formulas at Neomark which we invented, and which Neomark carries the production for us, are available exclusively in the World by InkjetMall or its distributors.
Best regards,
Jon

Bob P.

It appears the information posted regarding the discussed (Neomark) website -- that perhaps the web site does not convey the complete story and full disclosure such as the quote posted in your reply. I have no reason to doubt (even one word) from John Cone's comment.

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

Try and buy Neomark inks directly from Neomark, or anywhere else, they will route you to the Inkjetmall....

Bob P.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Vernon D Rainwater
Forum ProPosts: 12,129
Like?
Re: Vernon....
In reply to Petruska, Jan 18, 2013

Petruska wrote:

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

Petruska wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

Interesting. The manufacturer's website (Neomark) says their encapsulated pigment inks are "supplied to professional photographers, billboard sign printing plants, and mostly aftermarket manufacturers of inkjet cartridges." Sounds like their business extends beyond just Inkjetmall.

Hi Bob,
The formulas at Neomark which we invented, and which Neomark carries the production for us, are available exclusively in the World by InkjetMall or its distributors.
Best regards,
Jon

Bob P.

It appears the information posted regarding the discussed (Neomark) website -- that perhaps the web site does not convey the complete story and full disclosure such as the quote posted in your reply. I have no reason to doubt (even one word) from John Cone's comment.

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

Try and buy Neomark inks directly from Neomark, or anywhere else, they will route you to the Inkjetmall....

Bob P.

That basically conforms to the information you posted from the John Cone's provided details  I think there may be some intended (or incidental) comments (by some posts) to disclaim the information provided by Jon Cone -- but that will never "fly".....

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads