would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)

Started Jan 17, 2013 | Discussions
skimble
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would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
Jan 17, 2013

I like the sample I have seen so far but on the night shots the lights seem to have this fabricated star look to it. Hope they manage to get the QC right to make the best use of that sensor.

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Sunshine_boy
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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to skimble, Jan 17, 2013

skimble wrote:

I like the sample I have seen so far but on the night shots the lights seem to have this fabricated star look to it. Hope they manage to get the QC right to make the best use of that sensor.

There would NOT be a printable word in the dictionary to describe them if they drop the same clanger again. A new screw up (likely) will probably be just tolerable!...

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timo
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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to skimble, Jan 17, 2013

skimble wrote:

I like the sample I have seen so far but on the night shots the lights seem to have this fabricated star look to it. Hope they manage to get the QC right to make the best use of that sensor.

Yes of course they will. Obviously. If only to give some people on this forum a reason for living.

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marike6
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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to skimble, Jan 17, 2013

Expect this forum and others online to analyze every specular highlight with 1:1 crops.  If each and every one is not a perfect ten point star without the slightest hint of sensor blooming expect users to throw Fuji, not under the bus, but under the road the bus is driving on.  

Since the X20 has a completely new sensor with the same X-Trans technology found in the excellent X-Pro1 and X-E1, I don't expect any issues re: blooming.

I've owned 2 X10s and have never experienced any QC issues whatsoever. On the contrary, the X10  is one of the best built, most robust compacts I've ever owned, which is exactly why I will buy an X20 straight away without waiting for any reviews at all.

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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to skimble, Jan 17, 2013

After Fujifilm has replaced who knows how many X10's at their expense ( . . . . including mine . . . ) and taken such a black eye in the online world (led by all the hysterics right here in the Wild Wild West of DPR), do you REALLY think they'd get caught out again?  How many people may have lost their jobs, got reprimanded, or at least are on very short leashes atop very hot seats?

Anyone who has had their reputation for leadership in still and motion picture film stocks, serious, big money broadcast lenses, mil-spec binoculars, satellite optics, and a solid reputation for the usually off-the-beaten path cameras they've already made, is going to take their licks on that one, FIX their process and move on.  And don't forget, these are Made-in-Japan products, and X100 production was stopped by the Earthquake/tsunami, and I imagine FF was impacted in many ways by that tragedy.

That the X20 has an X-Trans sensor is no accident.  I'd have bet my house that whatever follow-on to the X10 would not have a sensor even remotely related to the X10's EXR.  For obvious reasons.  They have been making lots of points with the X-Trans, so there you are.

Lots of new cameras have their problems that just don't show up no matter how many tests the engineers run;  it's just not the same as all the things that can happen once the civilians get their hands on them in real life.  And lots of manufacturers are ham-fisted when it comes to fixing them:  Cruise around the full-frame Nikon or Canon forums, a few nits to pick regarding their new cameras, and their response.  It happens.

I had the occasional orb with my first X10.  It didn't keep me up nights, nor did I feel personally violated, rend my clothes and wear sack cloth and ashes about it.  However, I did think that should I ever decide to sell or trade it, an old serial # camera might be a liability.  I sent it in, and Fuji in New Jersey (Thank You, Steve, and FF) graciously replaced it.  How could I possibly complain?  My XS-1 is orbless and droop-less (Thank You B+H).

But for the life of me, I can NOT imagine any circumstance where they have not made a lot of internal changes and done everything possible to NOT repeat the X10 situation with the X20.

All the Best,

JW

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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to marike6, Jan 17, 2013

marike6 wrote:

Expect this forum and others online to analyze every specular highlight with 1:1 crops.

As well they should.  FUJIFILM muffed the 2/3" sensor in a spectacular fashion.

If each and every one is not a perfect ten point star without the slightest hint of sensor blooming expect users to throw Fuji, not under the bus, but under the road the bus is driving on.

Pure hyperbole on your part.

Since the X20 has a completely new sensor with the same X-Trans technology found in the excellent X-Pro1 and X-E1, I don't expect any issues re: blooming.

The X Trans sensor is just a different color filter array.  That has nothing to do with blooming.  It is the sensor underneath that determines that.

I've owned 2 X10s and have never experienced any QC issues whatsoever. On the contrary, the X10 is one of the best built, most robust compacts I've ever owned, which is exactly why I will buy an X20 straight away without waiting for any reviews at all.

My X10 has had multiple failures besides being built with a defective sensor.  The lens on/off switch is clearly dying.  The focus motor freezes up 20% of the time or so.  The viewfinder seems to be falling apart (internal glass elements sticking as well as the eye relief loosening up).

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Trevor G
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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to skimble, Jan 17, 2013

skimble wrote:

Hope they manage to get the QC right to make the best use of that sensor.

Anything could happen. It's unlikely the camera will be perfect, but quite likely that it will be eminently usable!

Even the original X10 was.

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DS21
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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to Gaijin Tourist, Jan 17, 2013

Gaijin Tourist wrote:

After Fujifilm has replaced who knows how many X10's at their expense ( . . . . including mine . . . ) and taken such a black eye in the online world (led by all the hysterics right here in the Wild Wild West of DPR), do you REALLY think they'd get caught out again? How many people may have lost their jobs, got reprimanded, or at least are on very short leashes atop very hot seats?

Anyone who has had their reputation for leadership in still and motion picture film stocks, serious, big money broadcast lenses, mil-spec binoculars, satellite optics, and a solid reputation for the usually off-the-beaten path cameras they've already made, is going to take their licks on that one, FIX their process and move on. And don't forget, these are Made-in-Japan products, and X100 production was stopped by the Earthquake/tsunami, and I imagine FF was impacted in many ways by that tragedy.

That the X20 has an X-Trans sensor is no accident. I'd have bet my house that whatever follow-on to the X10 would not have a sensor even remotely related to the X10's EXR. For obvious reasons. They have been making lots of points with the X-Trans, so there you are.

Lots of new cameras have their problems that just don't show up no matter how many tests the engineers run; it's just not the same as all the things that can happen once the civilians get their hands on them in real life. And lots of manufacturers are ham-fisted when it comes to fixing them: Cruise around the full-frame Nikon or Canon forums, a few nits to pick regarding their new cameras, and their response. It happens.

I had the occasional orb with my first X10. It didn't keep me up nights, nor did I feel personally violated, rend my clothes and wear sack cloth and ashes about it. However, I did think that should I ever decide to sell or trade it, an old serial # camera might be a liability. I sent it in, and Fuji in New Jersey (Thank You, Steve, and FF) graciously replaced it. How could I possibly complain? My XS-1 is orbless and droop-less (Thank You B+H).

But for the life of me, I can NOT imagine any circumstance where they have not made a lot of internal changes and done everything possible to NOT repeat the X10 situation with the X20.

All the Best,

JW

Old habits die hard at Fujifilm, check the F800EXR reviews and how many decentered lenses were discovered in the process. This problem has been following Fujifilm since the F550, across several generations of cameras, and nothing has changed. There will be some issues with the X20, that is how Fujifilm operates,

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jimr
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It is not Just FujiCanon Had (Has?) QC Problems That Model After Model Lens Error After Lens Error
In reply to DS21, Jan 17, 2013

And then the S100 issue.

Decentered lens elements have dogged many camera makes and models over many years.

The X10 was a poorly handled situation ...For that Fuji  was correctly panned...

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Andrewteee
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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to skimble, Jan 17, 2013

It's an entirely new sensor and processing engine... the "orb" issue could be a remote possibility, I suppose, but highly unlikely. Simply a different design.

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marike6
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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to rattymouse, Jan 17, 2013

rattymouse wrote:

marike6 wrote:

Expect this forum and others online to analyze every specular highlight with 1:1 crops.

As well they should. FUJIFILM muffed the 2/3" sensor in a spectacular fashion.

If each and every one is not a perfect ten point star without the slightest hint of sensor blooming expect users to throw Fuji, not under the bus, but under the road the bus is driving on.

Pure hyperbole on your part.

Perhaps you missed the smiley face I typed after my comment indicating that it was completely tongue-in-cheek.

Since the X20 has a completely new sensor with the same X-Trans technology found in the excellent X-Pro1 and X-E1, I don't expect any issues re: blooming.

The X Trans sensor is just a different color filter array. That has nothing to do with blooming. It is the sensor underneath that determines that.

Did I say that the X-Trans is related to blooming in any way?  No.  Perhaps you should read more carefully.  I said it's a completely new sensor that happens to share the X-Trans technology of the APS-C Fuji cameras, the X-Pro1 and X-E1 which have no issues with blooming whatsoever.

What I said was it's a brand new sensor so clearly Fuji will be extra careful to avoid any issues that were present in the X10 sensor.  From DPR's preview: "the X20 uses a completely new sensor, a 2/3"-type version of the X-Trans CMOS design used in the company's X-system cameras, but with added on-chip phase detection AF".

I've owned 2 X10s and have never experienced any QC issues whatsoever. On the contrary, the X10 is one of the best built, most robust compacts I've ever owned, which is exactly why I will buy an X20 straight away without waiting for any reviews at all.

My X10 has had multiple failures besides being built with a defective sensor. The lens on/off switch is clearly dying. The focus motor freezes up 20% of the time or so. The viewfinder seems to be falling apart (internal glass elements sticking as well as the eye relief loosening up).

Yet for all the negative comments that you make re: Fuji and how much they suck, you continue to buy their cameras.

Personally, I always look forward to discussing my Fuji cameras on this forum with other users, but for some reason you seem to have a real problem with Fuji and quite honestly your continually knocking Fuji makes this forum at times an extremely unpleasant place to hang out.   I may have to rethink whether or not I want to buy another Fuji camera, as part of the experience of owning gear is discussing it with other photographers.  But when I'm continually put in a position of having to defend the gear I enjoy using, it makes for a most unpleasant overall experience.

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marike6
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Of course not...
In reply to jimr, Jan 17, 2013

jimr wrote:

And then the S100 issue.

Decentered lens elements have dogged many camera makes and models over many years.

The X10 was a poorly handled situation ...For that Fuji was correctly panned...

Yet, at least here in the US, Fujifilm USA did the right thing and replaced the X10 sensor.  I sent them my X10, and got it back less than a week later with a brand new sensor that was, for the most part, free of blooming.

I should point out that the X10 sensor is not the only camera sensor to show blooming.  Go on Flickr and search "Sigma DP1 Merrill".  Browse through the images from that camera and you will see much worse blooming in specular highlights than the X10 ever exhibited.  But if you've ever visited the Sigma forum, you don't get anywhere near the same amount of venom toward Sigma that we see toward Fujifilm.

Sigma DP1 Merrill Blooming Example Photo  

I also remember my Nikon D70 has a similar blooming issue that while less extreme than the DP1 Merrill or X10, was still there.  Blooming is not unique to the Fuji X10, but sometimes it seems that the absolute hatred of Fujifilm by some Fuji shooters is.

For me, as long as they keep making great performing cameras with class leading IQ, I will continue to buy Fuji cameras.  All new cameras whether it's the 5D3 or D600 have early technical issues.

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skimble
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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to marike6, Jan 17, 2013

Good points I was in early adopter as well and loved the camera. I had not even one time the problem with blooming but dust on the sensor.

I will be very tempted to buy the X20 or wait  till the XS1 is equipped with this new sensor and focus speed. The output what I saw from the X20 is fantastic.

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DS21
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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to skimble, Jan 17, 2013

skimble wrote:

Good points I was in early adopter as well and loved the camera. I had not even one time the problem with blooming but dust on the sensor.

I will be very tempted to buy the X20 or wait till the XS1 is equipped with this new sensor and focus speed. The output what I saw from the X20 is fantastic.

Better to wait a little bit when it comes to Fuji products, the X20 I tried at the show had terrible color output (white balance issues). The HS50 had the same issue, so it may be a company wide shift in how Fuji processes indoor pictures. Manual preset was not good either. Since AWB was traditionally a strong Fuji feature, this would make me very worried if I was in a market for a new Fuji (I am not, though, I've had enough).

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DS21
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Re: It is not Just FujiCanon Had (Has?) QC Problems That Model After Model Lens Error
In reply to jimr, Jan 17, 2013

jimr wrote:

And then the S100 issue.

Decentered lens elements have dogged many camera makes and models over many years.

The X10 was a poorly handled situation ...For that Fuji was correctly panned...

This may be, but never so many review sites have stumbled upon so many defective samples as is recently the case with Fuji F pocket zooms.

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skimble
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interesting points
In reply to DS21, Jan 18, 2013

will see when they hit the market, I fuju tries funny things they may lose out big times this time as the competition has grown big time. I just love the combination of manual zoom and having this EFV

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Les Lammers
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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to timo, Jan 18, 2013

   Sums it up nicely.

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skimble
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Re: would Fuji do the same stuff up again with the X20 (orbs &QC)
In reply to Gaijin Tourist, Jan 19, 2013

I only hope the right people lost their job but most likely not, the sleazy top manager who made this short cut calls to push the product on the market will wind their neck out. Maybe no one lost their job because it was all known and just a commercial decision but falling off bits  of the camera and having dust on the sensor is a no no in any manufacturing process with high tech equipment.

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