Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!

Started Jan 15, 2013 | Discussions
Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!
Jan 15, 2013

Here is the quote on the new Sigma DP3M special site:

This provides luminance resolution equivalent to that of a 30MP CFA sensor as measured on the standard B&W resolution chart used in conventional digital camera resolution testing.

Sigma has tested and other professional review sites have tested the DP2M and DP1M and have all said these cameras are providing absurdly high bayer sensor equivalent MP in resolution.

Can't decide whether to get the DP3M or the DP1M.  Maybe I'll just own them all. There is some real wisdom in purchasing a lens/sensor combination that has been engineered for a perfect marriage together.  What I wonder is---will the DP3M with the 50mm lens which gives a 75mm equivalent focal length in 35mm SLR--- How does its image quality stack up to the Sigma SD1M and the 70mm f2.8 macro.  This new camera is a very interesting development.  I also notice the face detection AF. Wonder if this feature can be added to the existing DP1M and DP2M lineup as a firmware update?

Eitheway--the new camera is very exciting and YES--it is a 30MP Luminance Resolution equivalent sensor. Why do people still argue that the DPxM series cameras and SD1M series camera aren't 30MP equivalent resolution?  Probably the same lot that watches Fox Liars  News too.  LOL

Gary Mercer

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RonJG
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Re: Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Jan 15, 2013

gary mercer wrote:

Here is the quote on the new Sigma DP3M special site:

This provides luminance resolution equivalent to that of a 30MP CFA sensor as measured on the standard B&W resolution chart used in conventional digital camera resolution testing.

Sigma has tested and other professional review sites have tested the DP2M and DP1M and have all said these cameras are providing absurdly high bayer sensor equivalent MP in resolution.

I just don't get these claims.  I've seen a significant amounts of anecdotal claims and plenty of "because I saysoism" but I've never seen the results of objective scientific tests proving these claims.

Here's a non-scientific bunch of facts:

A Sigma X3F, processed to a jpg, taken to Paintshop Pro and zoomed to fill the screen is at 54%.

A Nikon D800E NEF, processed to a jpg, taken to Paintshop Pro and zoomed to fill the screen is at 35%. (Even lowly D600 images fill the screen at 42%)

Can you see a difference here?

If I take the Nikon image and zoom it up to 54% the image is much bigger than the Sigma image and contains much more detail.

I bought the SD1M on the premise I was getting this type of equivalence. Unfortunately it's not happening.

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motomanDK
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Re: Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!
In reply to RonJG, Jan 15, 2013

RonJG wrote:

Here's a non-scientific bunch of facts:

A Sigma X3F, processed to a jpg, taken to Paintshop Pro and zoomed to fill the screen is at 54%.

A Nikon D800E NEF, processed to a jpg, taken to Paintshop Pro and zoomed to fill the screen is at 35%. (Even lowly D600 images fill the screen at 42%)

Can you see a difference here?

OMG ..... here we go again ..............

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/Henrik - Denmark
(SD14 and SD15 ... and about 5 kg glass)

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BobNL
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Re: Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!
In reply to RonJG, Jan 15, 2013

Do you see any difference in the quality (of the pixel) at 100%?

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xpatUSA
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Re: Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!
In reply to motomanDK, Jan 15, 2013

motomanDK wrote:

OMG ..... here we go again ..............

+1 !!

Has it not been firmly established in this forum that the linear resolution of a Bayer sensor is between 50 and 75% of that implied by the MP value, and is it not the concensus of this forum that, on average, the said number is 70% in the real world of color images - not "luminance equivalent", whatever that obfuscating phrase means.

This article says it pretty well , IMHO:

http://www.melbpc.org.au/pcupdate/2303/2303article4.htm

So, 30MP at 3:2 aspect ratio = 6708x4472px. Effectively, 6708x0.7x4472x0.7 =4696x3130px = 14.7MP.

In other words, the OP has said nothing new, in spite of the exclamation mark in the title - sorry, Gary.

Please do pardon me for providing a reference and quoting actual numbers

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Regards,
Ted.

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Lin Evans
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Re: Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!
In reply to RonJG, Jan 15, 2013

Hi Ron,

Please don't confuse pixel count, display size in percentages and resolution. You're falling into the same trap created by marketing which millions of others have.

Resolution is measured in visible line pairs on standardized resolution charts and "not" by the number of pixels and certainly not by the percentage reported by software to "fill the screen."

The term "X" megapixels resolution is only even roughly useful when comparing sensors with very similar construction and then only a "correlation" between the number of pixels in the output file and the optical resolution as measured on standardized resolution charts.

Comparing the number of pixels produced in the output file of a Foveon sensor and the number of pixels produced in the output file of a CMA sensor with an AA filter and equating these figures to optical resolution is virtually useless.

Best regards,

Lin

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1chaz
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Re: Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!
In reply to motomanDK, Jan 15, 2013

motomanDK wrote:

RonJG wrote:

Here's a non-scientific bunch of facts:

A Sigma X3F, processed to a jpg, taken to Paintshop Pro and zoomed to fill the screen is at 54%.

A Nikon D800E NEF, processed to a jpg, taken to Paintshop Pro and zoomed to fill the screen is at 35%. (Even lowly D600 images fill the screen at 42%)

Can you see a difference here?

OMG ..... here we go again ..............

-- hide signature --

/Henrik - Denmark
(SD14 and SD15 ... and about 5 kg glass)

You know if that dead horse is beaten enough it will run some more.

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Erik Magnuson
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Nothing new here
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Jan 15, 2013

gary mercer wrote:

Here is the quote on the new Sigma DP3M special site:

This provides luminance resolution equivalent to that of a 30MP CFA sensor as measured on the standard B&W resolution chart used in conventional digital camera resolution testing.

Sigma has said the same thing since the SD1 was introduced. Nothing new to report here.

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NancyP
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However many Bayer pixel equivalents are involved, I like the DP2M output
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Jan 15, 2013

15 MP? 30 MP? Meh. Beautiful images in a compact camera. There might be better images in larger cameras, but so far as an APS-C format camera is concerned, I think that the DP2M is a winner at a reasonable price. The FF compacts are more expensive, and necessarily so.

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mike earussi
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Re: However many Bayer pixel equivalents are involved, I like the DP2M output
In reply to NancyP, Jan 15, 2013

Whether it's exactly 30mp or not is impossible to demonstrate as there is no 30mp Bayer sensored camera (that I know of). There are several 24mp ones that from my tests/comparisons do not quite have the resolution of the 14.7mp Foveon chip, and there is one 36mp chip that has noticeably better resolution than the 14.7mp Foveon chip. So all anyone can actually demonstrate is that the Foveon chip is somewhere between 24mp and 36mp Bayer equivalent (and from what I've seen it's much closer to 24 than 36).

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MrBlissfly
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Re: However many Bayer pixel equivalents are involved, I like the DP2M output
In reply to mike earussi, Jan 15, 2013

mike earussi wrote:

Whether it's exactly 30mp or not is impossible to demonstrate as there is no 30mp Bayer sensored camera (that I know of). There are several 24mp ones that from my tests/comparisons do not quite have the resolution of the 14.7mp Foveon chip, and there is one 36mp chip that has noticeably better resolution than the 14.7mp Foveon chip. So all anyone can actually demonstrate is that the Foveon chip is somewhere between 24mp and 36mp Bayer equivalent (and from what I've seen it's much closer to 24 than 36).

I would suggest that that is mighty difficult to do as one is always comparing a system rather than just the chip.

Too much weight is put on this measurement in my opinion anyway.

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: However many Bayer pixel equivalents are involved, I like the DP2M output
In reply to MrBlissfly, Jan 15, 2013

MrBlissfly wrote:

I would suggest that that is mighty difficult to do as one is always comparing a system rather than just the chip.

yes

Too much weight is put on this measurement in my opinion anyway.

This is the curse of digital imaging

And the Foveon chip struggle for becoming accepted has amplified this trend greatly.

The problem IMHO is that fans always exaggerate the advantage of its own equipment. And then, of course, those that are more precise wants to see if its true. And the measurements begin. And the fans get annoyed.

So - the questions should be. 1) does the camera deliver good images? and 2) is the camera price worthy? 3) do I like the camera? If yes, yes and yes, then its a good buy. Even if there exist better buys.

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DMillier
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Re: However many Bayer pixel equivalents are involved, I like the DP2M output
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Jan 15, 2013

You are so sensible, you are almost disqualified from forum life!

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MrBlissfly
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Re: However many Bayer pixel equivalents are involved, I like the DP2M output
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Jan 15, 2013

Roland Karlsson wrote:

MrBlissfly wrote:

I would suggest that that is mighty difficult to do as one is always comparing a system rather than just the chip.

yes

Too much weight is put on this measurement in my opinion anyway.

This is the curse of digital imaging

And the Foveon chip struggle for becoming accepted has amplified this trend greatly.

The problem IMHO is that fans always exaggerate the advantage of its own equipment. And then, of course, those that are more precise wants to see if its true. And the measurements begin. And the fans get annoyed.

So - the questions should be. 1) does the camera deliver good images? and 2) is the camera price worthy? 3) do I like the camera? If yes, yes and yes, then its a good buy. Even if there exist better buys.

For me, yes, yes, yes.

What are those better buys?

(another turn on the lid of the can of worms) 

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!
In reply to motomanDK, Jan 16, 2013

motomanDK wrote:

RonJG wrote:

Here's a non-scientific bunch of facts:

A Sigma X3F, processed to a jpg, taken to Paintshop Pro and zoomed to fill the screen is at 54%.

A Nikon D800E NEF, processed to a jpg, taken to Paintshop Pro and zoomed to fill the screen is at 35%. (Even lowly D600 images fill the screen at 42%)

Can you see a difference here?

OMG ..... here we go again ..............

-- hide signature --

/Henrik - Denmark
(SD14 and SD15 ... and about 5 kg glass)

Great words of wisdom spoken!  LOL

-- hide signature --

Gary Mercer

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!
In reply to xpatUSA, Jan 16, 2013

xpatUSA wrote:

motomanDK wrote:

OMG ..... here we go again ..............

+1 !!

Has it not been firmly established in this forum that the linear resolution of a Bayer sensor is between 50 and 75% of that implied by the MP value, and is it not the concensus of this forum that, on average, the said number is 70% in the real world of color images - not "luminance equivalent", whatever that obfuscating phrase means.

This article says it pretty well , IMHO:

http://www.melbpc.org.au/pcupdate/2303/2303article4.htm

So, 30MP at 3:2 aspect ratio = 6708x4472px. Effectively, 6708x0.7x4472x0.7 =4696x3130px = 14.7MP.

In other words, the OP has said nothing new, in spite of the exclamation mark in the title - sorry, Gary.

Please do pardon me for providing a reference and quoting actual numbers

-- hide signature --

Regards,
Ted.

I remember reading that link a very long time ago. Thanks for posting it again.

-- hide signature --

Gary Mercer

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petr marek
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Re: Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Jan 16, 2013

gary mercer wrote:

Here is the quote on the new Sigma DP3M special site:

This provides luminance resolution equivalent to that of a 30MP CFA sensor as measured on the standard B&W resolution chart used in conventional digital camera resolution testing.

Sigma has tested and other professional review sites have tested the DP2M and DP1M and have all said these cameras are providing absurdly high bayer sensor equivalent MP in resolution.

Can't decide whether to get the DP3M or the DP1M. Maybe I'll just own them all. There is some real wisdom in purchasing a lens/sensor combination that has been engineered for a perfect marriage together. What I wonder is---will the DP3M with the 50mm lens which gives a 75mm equivalent focal length in 35mm SLR--- How does its image quality stack up to the Sigma SD1M and the 70mm f2.8 macro. This new camera is a very interesting development. I also notice the face detection AF. Wonder if this feature can be added to the existing DP1M and DP2M lineup as a firmware update?

Eitheway--the new camera is very exciting and YES--it is a 30MP Luminance Resolution equivalent sensor. Why do people still argue that the DPxM series cameras and SD1M series camera aren't 30MP equivalent resolution? Probably the same lot that watches Fox Liars News too. LOL

Gary Mercer

Yes, it´s good...:) But Sigma has lots of camera charasteristics to improve and when it is fixed with next generation of the cameras, you are going to buy another collection of DPs. I prefer to buy high quality lenses ones and then change the body with every major improvement of sensor or hardware. Evolution in digital world is pretty fast, so why pay for the same lenses again? In other words, compact mirrorless system would be a wise desicion, showing respect to high quality lenses.

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RonJG
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Re: Merrill sensored cameras ARE 30MP luminance equivalents to 30MP cameras!
In reply to Lin Evans, Jan 16, 2013

Lin Evans wrote:

Hi Ron,

Please don't confuse pixel count, display size in percentages and resolution. You're falling into the same trap created by marketing which millions of others have.

Resolution is measured in visible line pairs on standardized resolution charts and "not" by the number of pixels and certainly not by the percentage reported by software to "fill the screen."

The term "X" megapixels resolution is only even roughly useful when comparing sensors with very similar construction and then only a "correlation" between the number of pixels in the output file and the optical resolution as measured on standardized resolution charts.

Comparing the number of pixels produced in the output file of a Foveon sensor and the number of pixels produced in the output file of a CMA sensor with an AA filter and equating these figures to optical resolution is virtually useless.

Best regards,

Lin

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learntomakeslidshows.net

Maybe I should do this in pictures. You guys are simply not getting what I've said.

If I take the Nikon D800E images down to the same level of magnification as the SD1M images, the Nikon images, already cuttingly sharp, are even sharper and more detailed.

If I go the other way, and uprez the SD1M images to match the same screen size magnification as the Nikon images, the Sigma images lose detail significantly.

Someone here recently suggested I process the SD1M images to double size in SPP to try to equalise the output. Tried that and was very disappointed with the result.

There is no AA filter on the Nikon D800E by the way.

Ron

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Facts is Facts
In reply to RonJG, Jan 16, 2013

RonJG wrote:

A Nikon D800E NEF, processed to a jpg, taken to Paintshop Pro and zoomed to fill the screen is at 35%. (Even lowly D600 images fill the screen at 42%)

So too would a Nikon D800 (non E).

So why then would Nikon sell the D800E AND the D800 Non-E?

After all, they both zoom the same in Paintshop "Pro".

When you can answer that question, you will know what you "seek".

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RonJG
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Re: Facts is Facts
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Jan 16, 2013

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

RonJG wrote:

A Nikon D800E NEF, processed to a jpg, taken to Paintshop Pro and zoomed to fill the screen is at 35%. (Even lowly D600 images fill the screen at 42%)

So too would a Nikon D800 (non E).

Huh?

So why then would Nikon sell the D800E AND the D800 Non-E?

Huh?

After all, they both zoom the same in Paintshop "Pro".

And Photoshop and any other imaging editor you want to name.

When you can answer that question, you will know what you "seek".

Huh?

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