Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?

Started Jan 12, 2013 | Questions
michaeli
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Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
Jan 12, 2013

I found that there are more purple and green noise in the dark area of the images of the SD1m than that of the Sd14 when both in low ISO (ISO 100).  Is the noise related to the Dynamic performance  or is that just little purple fringes caused by lenses?

I think SD1m should have better dynamic performance than SD14, what do you think?

Comparison:

SD14:

SD14

SD1m:

SD1m

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Hardy Steiner
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Re: Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
In reply to michaeli, Jan 12, 2013

It's difficult to judge: These pictures are not of the same scene, you didn't mention the exposure settings, WB etc.

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xpatUSA
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Re: Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
In reply to michaeli, Jan 12, 2013

michaeli wrote:

I found that there are more purple and green noise in the dark area of the images of the SD1m than that of the Sd14 when both in low ISO (ISO 100). Is the noise related to the Dynamic performance or is that just little purple fringes caused by lenses?

I think SD1m should have better dynamic performance than SD14, what do you think?

I own neither camera but, in theory, I would expect "cleaner" performance from the SD14 (all other things being equal) - based solely on pixel area and therefore well capacity. Pixel pitches are 7.8um and 4.9um so the SD14 has over twice the active area.

The discussion might be muddied by versions of SPP, default noise reduction, etc.

In my view, giving in to the Marketing Grail of ever-more MP's is a retrograde step, although I do recognize that some folks like to make large prints.

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Ted.

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One River
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Re: Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
In reply to xpatUSA, Jan 12, 2013

Very difficult to say. Seems a different aperture was used? On the SD-1 pic the background (top of pic) is out of focus and it makes it nearly impossible to judge IMO.


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Roland Karlsson
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Re: Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
In reply to xpatUSA, Jan 12, 2013

xpatUSA wrote:

michaeli wrote:

I found that there are more purple and green noise in the dark area of the images of the SD1m than that of the Sd14 when both in low ISO (ISO 100). Is the noise related to the Dynamic performance or is that just little purple fringes caused by lenses?

I think SD1m should have better dynamic performance than SD14, what do you think?

I own neither camera but, in theory, I would expect "cleaner" performance from the SD14 (all other things being equal) - based solely on pixel area and therefore well capacity. Pixel pitches are 7.8um and 4.9um so the SD14 has over twice the active area.

The discussion might be muddied by versions of SPP, default noise reduction, etc.

In my view, giving in to the Marketing Grail of ever-more MP's is a retrograde step, although I do recognize that some folks like to make large prints.

The danger of more MP is partly a myth IMHO.

Sure ... if you increase the number of pixels you add to the noise level. And when you hit a certain limit, the image starts to degrade fast.

And sure ... at pixel level, you surely get a steady degradation. But ... at image level thats not important.

In practice, increasing the number of pixels increase IQ. Until you hit that limit for fast degradation.

So - where is the Merrill sensor on the scale of degradation? I dont know. But - I guess you cannot really increase the IQ by making it fewer pixels. At least not substantially. maybe you could increase high ISO performance, and maybe you also could avoid the stripes you can get if you increase contrast. But otherwise? OIt seems like the Merrill sensor is a rather nice compromise.

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PrebenR
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Re: Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Jan 12, 2013

Roland Karlsson wrote:

OIt seems like the Merrill sensor is a rather nice compromise.

Yes I think so too. I think the next step would be a FF sensor if increasing the MP.

But as for colour splotches in shadows it is not necessary related to MP count, but rater the sensors as the Foveon sensor measures three signals at different depths. So it might be down to material and sensor designed. I'm hoping some new doped silicon material can help.

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MrBlissfly
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Re: Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
In reply to PrebenR, Jan 12, 2013

PrebenR wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

OIt seems like the Merrill sensor is a rather nice compromise.

Yes I think so too. I think the next step would be a FF sensor if increasing the MP.

I agree, 24MP would give a significant resolution advantage but also larger pixels.

Larger MP can give noisier images but is much less of an issue as the density, PPI in prints, is always comparatively higher.

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Roger
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Re:YES
In reply to michaeli, Jan 12, 2013

Hello

To answer your question in a word Yes, I believe the SD15 to be the best over all Sigma DSLR and the DP2x the best over all DP camera.

The SD1m has more MP but with more comes more issues.

Well I wonder how the clans doing in Las Vegas at CES/PMA an Death Valley

Have fun

Roger J.

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Johan Borg
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Re: Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
In reply to michaeli, Jan 12, 2013

Only the SD14 example is at ISO 100, the SD1 was shot at 200. I would expect the SD14 to be cleaner per pixel even at the same ISO, but that the SD1 output at half-size would be cleaner than the SD14 again...

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PrebenR
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Re:YES
In reply to Roger, Jan 12, 2013

Roger wrote:

Hello

To answer your question in a word Yes, I believe the SD15 to be the best over all Sigma DSLR and the DP2x the best over all DP camera.

Then, I need to ask what you mean by overall in this context.

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Laurence Matson
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What are we looking at?
In reply to michaeli, Jan 12, 2013

Am I missing something? Are these 100% crops?

Each camera has its own strengths, and a general comparison like this makes little sense. The SD14 and especially the SD15 are nice for faster write times and - in the case of the SD15 - a wonderful buffer for raw. The SD1 has just spectacular detail, which translated into amazing printed images at any size up to A0. Even at smaller sizes, this is true: set the image for 720 dpi and print away.

In terms of noise, that is more of a processing issue. Detail, however, cannot be processed in.

michaeli wrote:

I found that there are more purple and green noise in the dark area of the images of the SD1m than that of the Sd14 when both in low ISO (ISO 100). Is the noise related to the Dynamic performance or is that just little purple fringes caused by lenses?

I think SD1m should have better dynamic performance than SD14, what do you think?

Comparison:

SD14:

SD14

SD1m:

SD1m

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SandyF
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Re:Death Valley events
In reply to Roger, Jan 12, 2013

Roger wrote:

......

Well I wonder how the clans doing in Las Vegas at CES/PMA an Death Valley

Have fun

Roger J.

Zabriskie Point sunrise this morning; on to the Stovepipe dunes later this afternoon.  We just looked at some wonderful LARGE prints of Rick Decker and Kendall Gelner, SD1(Merrill), DP2Merrill, DP1Merrill.

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lighttripper
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Re: Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
In reply to xpatUSA, Jan 12, 2013

Sandy,

I'm seeing faint patchy color in my DP1m photos--particularly a magenta cast around most of the image margins.  Its much less apparent in bright daylight scenes unless there is lots of uniform snow by which  to judge the subtle color tones.  The magenta cast is more evident in shaded photos, especially visible in snow.  This is mildly 

evident in the last waterfall picture I posted last week.

My DP1s is much cleaner (despite the green corners).  My SD14 seems to do none of this with either a 15-30mm or 28-70 lens.

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Roger
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Re:YES
In reply to PrebenR, Jan 13, 2013

PrebenR wrote:

Roger wrote:

Hello

To answer your question in a word Yes, I believe the SD15 to be the best over all Sigma DSLR and the DP2x the best over all DP camera.

Then, I need to ask what you mean by overall in this context.

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Greetings

The SD15 is faster the IQ is as good as the SD1m when making images up to 30x36.  At small image size you won't see the difference.  The SD15 focus is better and with the SD15 I don't have  to purchase the best lenses to get better results.  If I'm in the Studio shootings for max resolution large prints, shooting slow with one lens and I use the SD1.  If I'm in the field shooting fast I use the SD15 with my normal lenses, but if I'm on an assignment in bad weather shooting fast I use another system but I bring my Sigma's along.  My SD15 just works no issues unless you shoot above ASA 1600 in low light.

There 's more but you get the idea.

Have fun

Roger J.

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Tom Schum
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Re: Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
In reply to michaeli, Jan 13, 2013

Just putting in my vote: Yes I think the images from my older sigmas are cleaner than the images from my SD1.

Older Sigmas include DP2 and SD15.  Newer Sigmas include SD1.

Especially with Sigma's better glass the SD15 really shines:



And the DP2 is not too shabby either:



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xpatUSA
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Re: Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Jan 13, 2013

Roland Karlsson wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

In my view, giving in to the Marketing Grail of ever-more MP's is a retrograde step, although I do recognize that some folks like to make large prints.

I knew I shouldn't have said that :-(. Sorry, Roland, I just can't let the apparent disagreement pass:

The danger of more MP is partly a myth IMHO.

Sure ... if you increase the number of pixels you add to the noise level. And when you hit a certain limit, the image starts to degrade fast.

I'm wondering what that "certain limit" is.. However, to clarify re: "increase the number of pixels" , the increase in photon noise is proportional to the pixel active area, not the number of pixels. Therefore, a 12MP 4/3" camera is much more noisy than a 12MP Nikon D3 or D700.

And sure ... at pixel level, you surely get a steady degradation. But ... at image level thats not important.

Not important for whom? For a landscape photographer shooting at f/16 the two cameras would be diffraction-limited, i.e. almost equally degraded, but what about a product image shot at, say, f/4?

In practice, increasing the number of pixels increase IQ. Until you hit that limit for fast degradation.

According to Clark, as we've discussed before, "that limit" is a pixel pitch of about 6um. The SD1 sensor, at 4.9um, is already beyond the limit according to Clark's criterion. Continuing in that direction, my 12MP 4/3" with it's 4.3um pitch is even worse. Clark balances theoretical noise (photon+electronic) against diffraction-limiting to establish an optimum pixel pitch.

A question for everyone in this thread:

If an subject is shot with a SD1 then a SD14/15 using the same lens, for example a super-sharp 70mm macro at say f/8; AND the subject is framed to the same pixel size (not re-sized in post): After cropping, which image would be "cleaner" per the OP?

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Ted.

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xpatUSA
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A correction to my post above :-(
In reply to xpatUSA, Jan 13, 2013

xpatUSA wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

In practice, increasing the number of pixels increase IQ. Until you hit that limit for fast degradation.

According to Clark, as we've discussed before, "that limit" is a pixel pitch of about 6um. The SD1 sensor, at 4.9um, is already beyond the limit according to Clark's criterion.

After reading Clark's article again, "that limit" is stated quite clearly as 5um which makes the SD1, at 4.9um, almost perfect in that regard, especially around the f/4 mark. Cameras with larger pixels at that same aperture would show "jaggies" more clearly on edges.

Note 1) to self from RAF days: "Don't assume - Check!"

Note 2) to self: must stop using the word "clear" in this thread . . .

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Ted.

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Roger
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Re:Death Valley events
In reply to SandyF, Jan 13, 2013

Sounds like every one is having a good time, but the weather is a little on the cool side.

Have fun

Enjoy

Roger J.

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petr marek
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Re: Do you think the image of SD14(SD15/DP1/2) is cleaner than that of SD1m(DP1m/2m) ?
In reply to michaeli, Jan 13, 2013

Yes, I saw already few comparsion. SD14 sensor is very strong and "false pattern"-free on unicolor areas with very smooth tonal transitions. Merrill sensor tends to be a little hars, but of course with more detail, but also kind of magenta noise. Merill sensor has better tonal range in darks, SD14 Foveon in highlights. I think it has to do something with size of photosites on sensor...

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petr marek
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Re:YES
In reply to Roger, Jan 13, 2013

Well written, I agree.

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