RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range

Started Jan 9, 2013 | Discussions
nofumble
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RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
Jan 9, 2013

http://filmmakermagazine.com/61605-reds-dragon-sensor-now-with-more-dynamic-range/

who are these guys, and why they can do what Canon cannot?

curlyone
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to nofumble, Jan 9, 2013

Like all good card players, Canon will never show their hand, expecially when they dont have to.

besides no thinking photographer will ever need 10 stops , if he needs 20 stops he has stopped thinking.

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jgardia
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to curlyone, Jan 9, 2013
besides no thinking photographer will ever need 10 stops , if he needs 20 stops he has stopped thinking.

I disagree. If you have a higher dynamic range, you can do hdr with 1 photo. That also means you have more flexibility when, for example, you have the sun against you.

Also, not all the pictures are done for aesthetic reasons. Some of us do technical images also. Some years ago, I was taking pictures of some scintillating crystals (they emit light when they receive some radioactive emission). To get an image from the light emitted with the crystals I needed a 30 minute exposure, in complete darkness. The other one was done with normal illumination, at about 1/100 sec. The lights from the crystals is so little, that in the picture you see no reflections of the light anywhere.

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curlyone
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to jgardia, Jan 9, 2013

Why single out Canon, do  Nikon ,Sony, Pentax, Olympus  or Panasonic  have cameras sitting around in shops , that have near 20 stops of dynamic range, they  are mass producers  and rarely specialize , keeps cost down per unit, and no company wants to show their hand , most photographers 95% would be happy with a camera that could still take a good pic at 6400 iso.

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barkingghost
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to curlyone, Jan 9, 2013

curlyone wrote:

Why single out Canon, do Nikon ,Sony, Pentax, Olympus or Panasonic have cameras sitting around in shops , that have near 20 stops of dynamic range, they are mass producers and rarely specialize , keeps cost down per unit, and no company wants to show their hand , most photographers 95% would be happy with a camera that could still take a good pic at 6400 iso.

I don't think he was singling Canon out. He is in the Canon equipment forum comparing its limitations to a vendor with greater ability. No need to go look for company to be miserable with.

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shaunly
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to curlyone, Jan 9, 2013

curlyone wrote:

Like all good card players, Canon will never show their hand, expecially when they dont have to.

besides no thinking photographer will ever need 10 stops , if he needs 20 stops he has stopped thinking.

Please speak for yourself. Claiming that "no thinking photographer" need 10stops just shows your arrogance.

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Mikael Risedal
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to shaunly, Jan 9, 2013

shaunly wrote:

curlyone wrote:

Like all good card players, Canon will never show their hand, expecially when they dont have to.

besides no thinking photographer will ever need 10 stops , if he needs 20 stops he has stopped thinking.

Please speak for yourself. Claiming that "no thinking photographer" need 10stops just shows your arrogance.

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you are so right , Nikon has over 14 stops DR because of the low read out noise and I have show how to use it compare to my Canons many times here at dpreview.

Now, 20 stops of DR can not a lens handle because of flare etc so my question will be, what shall they do with the 20stops DR? Read out the signal twice and build up a HDR picture?

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RedFox88
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to jgardia, Jan 9, 2013

jgardia wrote:

besides no thinking photographer will ever need 10 stops , if he needs 20 stops he has stopped thinking.

I disagree. If you have a higher dynamic range, you can do hdr with 1 photo. That also means you have more flexibility when, for example, you have the sun against you.

That's if you even have a desire for HDR, which I do not.  Range of light recorded, even limited, it itself is creative.  Being able to record "all light" would be pretty boring, sort of like flat lighting or low contrast - and many an 'hdr attempt' turns out low contrast and uninteresting to my eyes,

Many a goal in photography is to show images differently than our eyes see them.  Our eyes can see a very wide range of light while photography cannot.  This is one thing that makes photography attractive.

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curlyone
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to barkingghost, Jan 10, 2013

Sorry if i offended anyone,    BUT

1/ The  OP  did single out Canon or [did he put the same in other forums]

2/ When you are specializing and using [run of the mill equipment] you shouldn't be complaining

3/ This was a bait i put out for a stir, [No thinking photographer will ever need 10 stops of DR]

i should have used the words [more than 10 stops] but i didn't. you know what i mean,

coming from the pre digital era ,where slides had about 4 stops max of range, 2 stop either side max,  one could say we are being spoilt but i wont, because i like the latest IQ ,but i know there is a difference between a FORD and ROLLS ROYCE, now when you look at the link on the OP, there would hardly be a camera under $12000 and that RED stuff isn't petty cash either ,not run of the mill stuff where these big companies make their billions.

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Slideshow Bob
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to Mikael Risedal, Jan 10, 2013

you are so right , Nikon has over 14 stops DR because of the low read out noise and I have show how to use it compare to my Canons many times here at dpreview.

Now, 20 stops of DR can not a lens handle because of flare etc so my question will be, what shall they do with the 20stops DR? Read out the signal twice and build up a HDR picture?

It's a sensor designed for a video camera. It would allow the user to shoot in a relatively dark room, then go into a brighter room (for example) without cutting and without having to change the exposure. The video would be graded in post to achieve the contrast levels required for (and exposure transition from/to) each of the locations, allowing for a huge amount of control.

It would also be useful for shooting backgrounds for effects shots by allowing compositors to match lighting between full DR real/CGI elements prior to final grading.

There's a big difference between still photography and movie work!

SB

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Scott Larson
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to nofumble, Jan 10, 2013

Don't expect a sensor like this in your cheap $5,000 still camera.

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Astrophotographer 10
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to curlyone, Jan 10, 2013

Better is worse somehow??

Better is better in my book. I would say Canon can do that if it were marketable at a profit to the mass market. These RED cameras are a niche specialty camera and they have to be special for their professional users. I am sure there is a massive price tag that goes along with it.

I wondered what sort of cameras say the guys in Survivor use where they show video of the night sky and it looks like what you get with your DSLRs in 30 second exposures yet its a video - one sensitive sensor there!

Greg.

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nofumble
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to curlyone, Jan 10, 2013

curlyone wrote:

Sorry if i offended anyone, BUT

1/ The OP did single out Canon or [did he put the same in other forums]

2/ When you are specializing and using [run of the mill equipment] you shouldn't be complaining

3/ This was a bait i put out for a stir, [No thinking photographer will ever need 10 stops of DR]

i should have used the words [more than 10 stops] but i didn't. you know what i mean,

coming from the pre digital era ,where slides had about 4 stops max of range, 2 stop either side max, one could say we are being spoilt but i wont, because i like the latest IQ ,but i know there is a difference between a FORD and ROLLS ROYCE, now when you look at the link on the OP, there would hardly be a camera under $12000 and that RED stuff isn't petty cash either ,not run of the mill stuff where these big companies make their billions.

Full of bull. Canon is the only one I care about since I am virtually married to it.

No photographer needs more than 10 stop? True if you are right in the middle of the range. If you are shooting low or high key, you wish for more, lot more.

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curlyone
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to Scott Larson, Jan 10, 2013

Now thats what i call,  getting straight to the point, no BS,  no beating a round the bush, you only get what you pay for, I'M still waiting for a camera that can take a high quality pic no matter what the circumstances are but nobody can give me one, but i would settle with a camera that could shoot each image in a multi layer format , 1 layer average reading,+1-10 in hi-lite -1-10 in low lite, that would be 21layers each image, than i take to photoshop and choose which layers i want to keep, please tell me i must be dreaming.

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David Hull
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to curlyone, Jan 10, 2013

curlyone wrote:

Now thats what i call, getting straight to the point, no BS, no beating a round the bush, you only get what you pay for, I'M still waiting for a camera that can take a high quality pic no matter what the circumstances are but nobody can give me one, but i would settle with a camera that could shoot each image in a multi layer format , 1 layer average reading,+1-10 in hi-lite -1-10 in low lite, that would be 21layers each image, than i take to photoshop and choose which layers i want to keep, please tell me i must be dreaming.

You probably won't be too happy with the RAW file size either.

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The Davinator
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to curlyone, Jan 10, 2013

curlyone wrote:

Like all good card players, Canon will never show their hand, expecially when they dont have to.

besides no thinking photographer will ever need 10 stops , if he needs 20 stops he has stopped thinking.

No thinking photographer thinks that landscapes comprise less than 10stops.....or a wedding shoot in sunlight.  Sorry, you're completely mistaken.

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The Davinator
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to curlyone, Jan 10, 2013

curlyone wrote:

Sorry if i offended anyone, BUT

1/ The OP did single out Canon or [did he put the same in other forums]

2/ When you are specializing and using [run of the mill equipment] you shouldn't be complaining

3/ This was a bait i put out for a stir, [No thinking photographer will ever need 10 stops of DR]

i should have used the words [more than 10 stops] but i didn't. you know what i mean,

coming from the pre digital era ,where slides had about 4 stops max of range, 2 stop either side max, one could say we are being spoilt but i wont, because i like the latest IQ ,but i know there is a difference between a FORD and ROLLS ROYCE, now when you look at the link on the OP, there would hardly be a camera under $12000 and that RED stuff isn't petty cash either ,not run of the mill stuff where these big companies make their billions.

Velvia has around 5 stops...Provia about 6, and astia around 7.  Color neg materials are around the 11 to 13 or so stops.  B&w materials can extend to approx 18 stops.  I think you have a bit of reading to do and some experience to gain.

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shaunly
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to David Hull, Jan 10, 2013

David Hull wrote:

curlyone wrote:

Now thats what i call, getting straight to the point, no BS, no beating a round the bush, you only get what you pay for, I'M still waiting for a camera that can take a high quality pic no matter what the circumstances are but nobody can give me one, but i would settle with a camera that could shoot each image in a multi layer format , 1 layer average reading,+1-10 in hi-lite -1-10 in low lite, that would be 21layers each image, than i take to photoshop and choose which layers i want to keep, please tell me i must be dreaming.

You probably won't be too happy with the RAW file size either.

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All of today's modern computer are running Ivy Bridge with minimum quad core processor. On top of SSD with 6.0gb read/write speed. It zips through my D800 RAW files faster than my old PC did with the D700 RAW.

By the time imaging sensor get this advance, we'll have quantum computing running unlimited amount of data space at racetrack memory. Computer evolution is faster than a speeding bullet and get's cheaper and cheaper each year. This is should be the least of our worries.

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curlyone
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to David Hull, Jan 10, 2013

JPEGs would be alright for starters, yes you are right about the file sizes, they would be huge, certain get you thinking about photography and not so much snap shooting, but think about the DR range of that type image,  didnt Sony have something like that,where as the camera took about 10 shot a once in one image, it was some sort of noise reduction,thats another story.

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shaunly
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Re: RED's Dragon sensor - 20 stop dynamic range
In reply to curlyone, Jan 10, 2013

curlyone wrote:

Sorry if i offended anyone, BUT

1/ The OP did single out Canon or [did he put the same in other forums]

2/ When you are specializing and using [run of the mill equipment] you shouldn't be complaining

3/ This was a bait i put out for a stir, [No thinking photographer will ever need 10 stops of DR]

i should have used the words [more than 10 stops] but i didn't. you know what i mean,

coming from the pre digital era ,where slides had about 4 stops max of range, 2 stop either side max, one could say we are being spoilt but i wont, because i like the latest IQ ,but i know there is a difference between a FORD and ROLLS ROYCE, now when you look at the link on the OP, there would hardly be a camera under $12000 and that RED stuff isn't petty cash either ,not run of the mill stuff where these big companies make their billions.

And what have photographer been doing for decades when dynamic range of a scene are too extreme?

1, ND filters to bring down the highlights

2, flash filled for deep shadows

3, multi exposure image stacking

4, not take the picture at all and wait till the light improves

A sensor with huge headroom will minimize this thus giving you even a greater tool. Why argue with something that will only improve digital imaging while sacrificing nothing.

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