An Interesting Article

Started Jan 8, 2013 | Discussions
SergeyGreen
Contributing MemberPosts: 582
Like?
You seem to have a low opinion the others gear ..
In reply to CollBaxter, Jan 10, 2013

CollBaxter wrote:


This and The equivalence thing goes around and around. I do not have to rationalize anything , I use and shoot with long l;lenses every week next to people with long/thick white and black tubes. I can see and shoot what t a lot of then can't. I walk the walk . If they located the subject and aimed in the general direction and sprayed with the gazillion MP camera they would probably get a better picture if they fired enough shoots. . My system works for me. I hope your system works for you. I like what I use. Maybe you should speak to a few people that use long lenses and when I say long I mean 300mm is a short/medium lens. Maybe the solution is a longer lens, or just buy the biggest FF with the biggest sensor and viewfinder and that will solve all photographic problems. There was a user on this forum whose solution to ever problem was to buy a D800.

It is not the matter of liking what is yours, it is that the facts do not support what you claim. I know what Dx looked like and I know what Fx looks like, and I can not see less because later happens to have a wider frame coverage. With the same lens. It just does not work that way.

-- hide signature --

-sergey

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Jolly Oly
Contributing MemberPosts: 978Gear list
Like?
Re: If not When, life cycle of an OMD release & next DSLR
In reply to dave gaines, Jan 10, 2013

dave gaines wrote:

Jolly Oly wrote:

dave gaines wrote:

These aren't the most expensive SHG lenses and I'm not willing to settle for a m4/3.

so when new hybrid m4/3 camera, with state of the art sensor and fast pdaf focusing - but without a mirror and ovf - gets out, you will jump ship ?

That sounds like a foregone conclusion. That camera may appear some day a couple of years from now. It's less than a year since the EM-5 hit the market and only about 9 months since people could buy them so I doubt if Olympus will upgrade that model with a better replacement anytime soon. It would kill sales of their biggest selling camera in a few years, the EM-5.

Olympus historically offers upgrades to the E-x line every 3 to 4 years. That's why I think the next release that can optimize use of 4/3 SG, HG and SHG lenses will be an E-x and not an OMD.

OMD is one line of the Olympus cameras, just like Pen line. Pro-OMD has nothing to do with OMD line and will be positioned above OMD line. It still has no representative so forget about history and update circles.

Good luck in waiting for another mirror/OVF camera from Olympus.

Like I said, if Olympus offers a MILC with a lens adapter and hybrid, PDAF focus sensor and a video style EVF

and what is video style EVF ?

as a substitute for a large grip, rugged pro DSLR, no, I will not buy it.

I got that already, but still can't figure it out why..

especially if that video style EVF hybrid (OMD-pro, so probably dslr/GH-3 size) with SHG lenses on it, beats the crap out of anything but top notch full frame gear

We'll have the E-5 to shoot with for a few years so we can take our time deciding what to do next.

Obviously, no other options but to jump ship

-- hide signature --

Dave
No thought exists without an image. Socrates
http://whaleshark.smugmug.com

-- hide signature --
 Jolly Oly's gear list:Jolly Oly's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12mm 1:2 +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
goblin
Senior MemberPosts: 2,683Gear list
Like?
Re: The Article & Olympsu DSLR Talk
In reply to dave gaines, Jan 10, 2013

dave gaines wrote:

...In spite of knowing the article is inventive at best, this conversation quickly developed into a platform for people to wish for a new m4/3 with a new, hypothetically plausible adapter. This ads nothing to Olympus DSLR Talk. It's distracting, negative, a forum killer and potentially a brand killer. This forum is slow enough without people posting preferences for other systems and saying Olympus DSLR are passe.

Hi Dave

Thanks for your input.

I will comment on the part in bold as, amazing as it sounds, I do care about this forum despite all the "troll" labels I got in the recent past for defending my opinion, and I DO care when I see something that can kill the forum.

And to me,  the most dangerous thing for this forum, at this specific moment, is not the occasional m43 meteorite which flies through the forum's sky (those burn up fast anyway), but the self-ostracizing it is going into based on the holy mantra "Mirror, PDAF, native 4/3 mount, Period !!!"

The discussion didn't develop into a platform for people to wish for a new m43. It quickly developed into a platform for people to wish for ANYTHING that will handle their 4/3 lenses correctly. Whether it will be a pure DSLR as defined in the dictionary or something different can be a tragedy for some, a detail for others.

The tragedy to me seems to be in the way we read things:

If "m43" is read as "Current m43 crop. CDAF, looks like box of lady wipes, almost the same size, and just as useless to real men" - indeed, not seing another 4/3 dslr is a problem.

If "m43" is read as "A camera with no mirror and a different mount" - it is way less scary.

Simple question: What would be your opinion on the following: A clone of the E-5 (size, shape, look, handling, battery, accessories, everything), with simply no mirror (be it SLT, or a highly advanced EVF, or whatever actually WORKS) - what would your take be ? Will you consider it, will you automatically discard it because it's mirrorless ?

As for your faith in the release of a future 4/3 DSLR - I respect your faith. Still, why would you consider someone else's personal opinion to the contrary as negative, distracting, forum killer ?

It would be simply an opinion, well argued or not, as anything else.

 goblin's gear list:goblin's gear list
Ricoh GXR P10 28-300mm F3.5-5.6 VC Olympus E-1 Olympus E-3 Olympus E-330 Olympus E-400 +31 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
trevor4455
Regular MemberPosts: 105
Like?
Re: An Interesting Article
In reply to Doctor Lecter, Jan 10, 2013

As I am new to DSLR shooting and just happen to pick Olympus on a whim (e-510, kit lenses and 50 om), why is it the end of the 4/3's camera and if it is, why does it matter?  The body's still work, the lenses still work, and software continues to develop....

What are the two sides to this conversation?

I am still trying to understand the digital 4/3's 35mm equivalent distinction let alone consider buying a whole new system because I have tapped-out the creativity of the e-system.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dave gaines
Veteran MemberPosts: 9,172Gear list
Like?
The Olympus advantage in telephoto remains clear
In reply to CollBaxter, Jan 10, 2013

CollBaxter wrote:


dave gaines wrote:

... Again, Olympus to the rescue.

What a lot of people have left out of this equation is the users of long lenses. A lot of the wildlife shooters are starting to bitch about having to go FF. Yes more MP and crop but its nice to actually see what you are shooting.

-- hide signature --

Collin

Colin,

I get what you're sayig in your posts here about image size in the viewfinder and needing the subject to fill the frame. You want the subject to fill the frame. We all want that and we would rather not crop to get it. That's the Olympus advantage for wildlife and birding. We can get long reach and fill the frame much more easily. What we can shoot with a 300 mm lens, the FF shooter needs a 600 mm lens. That 600 mm f/4 lens is much larger and costs twice as much as the ZD 300 mm f/2.8.

As far as relative viewfinder size goes Olympus wins again, according to the link provided by alatchin. The Olympus OM-10 that is. The next best viewfinder is on the Canon 1DsmkIII followed by the Nikon D3 (D4). Every other APS, D5100 or 5D and 4/3 format viewfinder seem to be relatively close to each other on this scale.

http://snapsort.com/learn/images/viewfinder-size-comparison.jpg

I don't think we'll be forced to jump to FF just for the larger viewfinder when the telephoto lens size, speed and cost advantage is so great with Olympus. The next camera that can optimize performance of Olympus 4/3 HG and SHG lenses will be a DSLR. Every economic, tech development, release cycle indicator says it won't be an OMD but a new DSLR.

Somebody suggested a 4th product line for Olympus, besides m4/3 Pen, OMD and DSLR, but that idea seems unlikely.

-- hide signature --

Dave
No thought exists without an image. Socrates
http://whaleshark.smugmug.com

 dave gaines's gear list:dave gaines's gear list
Olympus C-8080 Wide Zoom Olympus E-330 Nikon D800E Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
goblin
Senior MemberPosts: 2,683Gear list
Like?
Re: The Olympus advantage in telephoto remains clear
In reply to dave gaines, Jan 10, 2013

dave gaines wrote:

...Every economic, tech development, release cycle indicator says it won't be an OMD but a new DSLR.

I totally agree with you that it won't be an OM-D.

Care to comment on the economic and tech development points ?

The E-5 made sorta kinda sense from the economic point of view, because it reused most of the really expensive mechanical stuff (prisms, viewfinder, body, pretty much everything) from the E-3, AND because ALL of its electronic improvements (work made around the sensor, image engine and whatnot) could be (and were) reused down the line on the m43 products.

As such, the E-5 did not have any "E-5 specific" upgrades per se (other than the obvious different rear button and screen cutouts).

To follow this pattern (making sense economically AND technologically), the only way seems to be another upgrade of the E-5 platform, with just newer internals (sensor and image engine, which would AGAIN be reusable across in the m43 department).

I would personally love to see such a camera, but the question that remains is whether Olympus will want to release it with the same AF module as the current one, which is already a carry-over from the E-3.

Do you think they will ? If not - how much would a whole new AF module add to the development bill, and what economic sense will it make if they can not reuse it on the m43 line ?

Keep in mind - I am going with the assumption that a whole new AF module will be pricey. I might be wrong, maybe it will not. From what I heard, the OVF is actually one of the expensive modules in an E-30/3/5, and that one does not have to be reinvented.

 goblin's gear list:goblin's gear list
Ricoh GXR P10 28-300mm F3.5-5.6 VC Olympus E-1 Olympus E-3 Olympus E-330 Olympus E-400 +31 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Great Bustard
Forum ProPosts: 23,632
Like?
Re: I'm surprised you don't get this, Collin.
In reply to CollBaxter, Jan 10, 2013

CollBaxter wrote:

I understand that not all viewfinders are the same size. But the E-53/5 view finder is not one of the smallest out there. I shoot wild life stuff with long lenses and you want to see what you are shooting. One of the problems with animal photography is the 'dead eye" this is a blacked out eye with no eye glint , it looks like a black hole . One often has to wait to see and catch the glint of the eye and take the shoot. You could get a rough framing and spray and pray. I have often had to sit for a minute or 2 for the animal to turn its head to get the shoot. This falls in line with getting in closer with a cropped sensor.

Here is an example.

Yes I could clone in the glint but I know its there, and so will a lot of wild life shooters. With wild life if you can't see it you cant shoot it. This one is not bad I have thousands that I have discarded due to movement into shadow or loosing the glint. This type of photography is subject specific and the subject moves.

I get what you are saying, and it makes perfect sense.  As I said, if you are using the same focal length on the larger format that you'd be using on the smaller format, and then cropping to the same framing, well, that's not really the best use of the larger format, and you'd likely be much better served using the smaller format that fills the frame with the focal length you are using.

That is, if you're shooting 300mm on FF and always cropping to the framing 600mm would give you, you'd be better off using 300mm on 4/3.

I was simply saying that Sergey was saying if the viewfinder size scaled with the sensor size, there'd be no framing advantage for the smaller format.  However, alatchin's post above showing the sizes of various systems did a nice job showing that the viewfinders do not scale with the sensor size.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
goblin
Senior MemberPosts: 2,683Gear list
Like?
Re: I'm surprised you don't get this, Collin.
In reply to Great Bustard, Jan 10, 2013

Question to Collin:

Collin, wouldn't the case you describe (subject being all small and insignificant lost in the middle of the VF) actually be a bit useful for BIF and dynamic subjects ?

I have all the difficulties in the world keeping a moving subject in my VF, when it fills almost all of it. This is handheld of course, don't know about gimbals and predicted subject path, but when I have an F-18 at an airshow filling my VF 100%, even knowing where it's going, it's very easy to lose.

Thanks

 goblin's gear list:goblin's gear list
Ricoh GXR P10 28-300mm F3.5-5.6 VC Olympus E-1 Olympus E-3 Olympus E-330 Olympus E-400 +31 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dave gaines
Veteran MemberPosts: 9,172Gear list
Like?
Olympus DSLR Talk
In reply to goblin, Jan 11, 2013

goblin wrote:

dave gaines wrote:

...In spite of knowing the article is inventive at best, this conversation quickly developed into a platform for people to wish for a new m4/3 ... people posting preferences for other systems and saying Olympus DSLR are passe.

Hi Dave

Thanks for your input.

... I DO care when I see something that can kill the forum.

Thanks.

And to me, the most dangerous thing for this forum, ...[is] the self-ostracizing it is going into based on the holy mantra "Mirror, PDAF, native 4/3 mount, Period !!!"

I suppose you're talking about the many calls for m4/3 adopters to use Micro 4/3 Talk forum for their posts about m4/3. The forum is not working for Olympus DSLR Talk. Many Oly 4/3 users seem to have left the forum. It's no fun reading endless speculative opinions about how DSLR is dead and going to be replaced with another m4/3.

If you posted on Nikon FX SLR or Canon EOS ID/5D Talk about how DSLRs are dying and they should all adopt MILC now, they'd call you a troll and try to have you banned. I'm just asking you to post on Micro 4/3 Talk.

The discussion didn't develop into a platform for people to wish for a new m43. It quickly developed into a platform for people to wish for ANYTHING that will handle their 4/3 lenses correctly. Whether it will be a pure DSLR ...

Except for Collin, Chris and myself defending our DSLRs, every post here is repeating the same unfounded speculation we've read in 3 articles where the blogger believes the next camera will be a magic hybrid m4/3. That kind of wishful thinking would be better posted on the Micro 4/3 Talk forum where they want to hear that idea.

The tragedy to me seems to be in the way we read things:

If "m43" is read as ... not seing another 4/3 dslr is a problem.

If "m43" is read as "A camera with no mirror and a different mount" - it is way less scary.

Only "Girlie Men" (CA Gov' Arnold S.) carry little cameras with little mounts and no flipping mirror or OVF.

The big question is about performance, as all real men know ... As of today the OVF still outperforms an EVF in sharpness, clarity and refresh rate. PDAF is the only system that will focus our 4/3 lenses quickly, except for a couple of mkII versions.

Simple question: What would be your opinion on the following: A clone of the E-5 (size, shape, look, handling, battery, accessories, everything), with simply no mirror (be it SLT, or a highly advanced EVF, or whatever actually WORKS) - what would your take be ? Will you consider it, will you automatically discard it because it's mirrorless ?

Yes, size matters. I want a big grip for those SHG lenses. And beyond that performance matters most. The EVF, PDAF and CAF of MILCs have to improve a lot before it will optimize use of 4/3 lenses as well as a DSLR. See above.

I upgraded from a very good Olympus bridge camera, the Camedia C-8080, to an E-3 and then the E-5 because I wanted fast focus and more lens choices. The C-8080 has a fine lens, it's just limited to 28-140 mm f/2.8-3.5. That lens is faster and sharper than most of the m4/3 zooms. I like the C-8080 almost as much as I appreciate the Pen and OMD, but I'm not interested in stepping backwards in performance or IQ from a DSLR. The next DSLR will have the same or better sensor as the EM-5 so that advantage goes away.

As for your faith in the release of a future 4/3 DSLR - I respect your faith. Still, why would you consider someone else's personal opinion to the contrary as negative, distracting, forum killer ? ...

These one sided opinions belong on Micro 4/3 Talk forum. Arguing against a new DSLR here is distracting, negative for DSLR owners and a forum killer. The people this forum is intended to serve don't need to read about 4/3 adopters who want another m4/3 and think the DSLR is dead.

-- hide signature --

Dave
No thought exists without an image. Socrates
http://whaleshark.smugmug.com

 dave gaines's gear list:dave gaines's gear list
Olympus C-8080 Wide Zoom Olympus E-330 Nikon D800E Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dave gaines
Veteran MemberPosts: 9,172Gear list
Like?
Re: The Olympus advantage in telephoto remains clear
In reply to goblin, Jan 11, 2013

goblin wrote:

dave gaines wrote:

...Every economic, tech development, release cycle indicator says it won't be an OMD but a new DSLR.

I totally agree with you that it won't be an OM-D.

Care to comment on the economic and tech development points ? ...

I've answered this in several posts above here and in other threads. The EM-5 is as advanced as it can be given the Olympus features. Offering another OMD wuld end sales for the EM-5 and anger a lot of owners. Building another E-x in a year from now with lots of sensor upgrades makes economic sense.

I would personally love to see such a camera, but the question that remains is whether Olympus will want to release it with the same AF module as the current one, which is already a carry-over from the E-3.

The E-3 is over 5 years old. They've had 5 years to work on AF. Everyone agrees Olympus is behind in this area so they should be working on improving it. If it's possible, they will make it better.

Do you think they will ? If not - how much would a whole new AF module add to the development bill, and what economic sense will it make if they can not reuse it on the m43 line ?

It doesn't matter what it costs. They need to keep up with the competition. If you believe that Olympus will continue to offer Pro DSLR E-x cameras then it doesn't matter if it can be used in an OMD or Pen. CDAF doesn't work on 4/3 lenses well enough to be competitive with PDAF in a DSLR but that didn't stop Oly from building a Pen with it.

Keep in mind - I am going with the assumption that a whole new AF module will be pricey. I might be wrong, maybe it will not. ...

Who knows. Again, it doesn't matter. R&D has to improve the camera to keep up with the competition.

-- hide signature --

Dave
No thought exists without an image. Socrates
http://whaleshark.smugmug.com

 dave gaines's gear list:dave gaines's gear list
Olympus C-8080 Wide Zoom Olympus E-330 Nikon D800E Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads