Canon 7D - same white-tailed deer I shot yesterday with my FZ200 - please note smearing in the fur.

Started Jan 6, 2013 | Discussions
RudyPohl
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Canon 7D - same white-tailed deer I shot yesterday with my FZ200 - please note smearing in the fur.
Jan 6, 2013

Hi Folks:

For your interest..., when I was out photographing white-tailed deer yesterday I met a photographer who was photographing the same group of deer. He was using a Canon 7D with an expensive L series lens, and I was using my FZ200.

I posted my full-sized image of a buck from this group yesterday (see below) and I have taken the liberty of posting three of the other photographer's images here. Please look at the full-sized version of these images and observe the immense amount of detail smearing and blotching produced by this excellent quality camera and superb lens. Keep in mind these are the identical deer shot at exactly the same time, under identical lighting conditions, thus making this a very valid comparison. Also notice the complete absence of detail smearing in the full-sized image of the FZ200 posted yesterday.

The purpose of this comparison is not the trash the 7D in any way ( I love that camera) or L series lenses (I love them too), or to make a claim that the FZ200 is equal to or better than the 7D (it's not), but it is simply to underscore once again, that the FZ200 can produce some excellent quality images when things are set and done well.... AND.... that high-quality equipment alone does not guarantee high-quality results.

Cheers,

Rudy

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NileLily
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Re: Canon 7D - same white-tailed deer I shot yesterday with my FZ200
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

I truly agree with you.

Thanks for sharing.

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Darel3
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Re: Canon 7D
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

I saw your white-tail picture yesterday.  I was very impressed by the quality of it.  Comparing to today's pictures- well really there is no comparison.

I have been using my FZ200 since Sept. and lurking here for several weeks.  I have a few questions.

1.  Are today's pictures also RAW?

2.  Was any type of camera support used by either photographer?

3.  What software did you use to convert the picture and how much did you sharpen it?

Thank you,
Darel

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manthasfamily
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Older camera with new technology of FZ200?
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

It is strange that the FZ200 does better then the 7D, but maybe it's because the 7D is a older, and technology has come a long way.  I noticed you shot the FZ with 100 ISO and the 7D with 800 ISO.  Maybe that makes all the difference?  I know nothing about the 7D so I'm just blowing some smoke into the air. ;~)

BTW, still good pictures.

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Karen
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RudyPohl
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Re: Canon 7D
In reply to Darel3, Jan 6, 2013

Darel3 wrote:

I saw your white-tail picture yesterday. I was very impressed by the quality of it. Comparing to today's pictures- well really there is no comparison.

I have been using my FZ200 since Sept. and lurking here for several weeks. I have a few questions.

1. Are today's pictures also RAW?

2. Was any type of camera support used by either photographer?

3. What software did you use to convert the picture and how much did you sharpen it?

Thank you,
Darel

Hi Darel:

In answer to your questions...

1) I don't know how this gentleman processed these images. Judging his portfolio which I had a look at this morning, he does not appear to be a very highly skilled photographer, so my guess is he used the JPEGs.

2) Neither of us used any type of camera support.

3) I have no idea what editing software he used or the workflow of his post processing. Regardless of his PPing, I think his images are so degraded that no PPing could significantly improve them.

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RudyPohl
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Re: Older camera with new technology of FZ200?
In reply to manthasfamily, Jan 6, 2013

manthasfamily wrote:

It is strange that the FZ200 does better then the 7D, but maybe it's because the 7D is a older, and technology has come a long way. I noticed you shot the FZ with 100 ISO and the 7D with 800 ISO. Maybe that makes all the difference? I know nothing about the 7D so I'm just blowing some smoke into the air. ;~)

BTW, still good pictures.

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Karen
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Hi Karen:

I don't think it's a matter of the 7D being older technology because I have seem countless AMAZING high quality images produced by the 7D by many different photographers. There's a reason it consider to be a pro camera, it's very good.

My guess is that here is an example of a user who has not yet found the ideal settings for how to make his camera produce the best images it can. If we look at his EXIF data we see the following:

Aperture always at F6.3,  ISO always at 800 and the shutter speeds faster than is needed for deer standing still.

If he reduced his aperture 2 stops to F4 and dropped his shutter speed to 1/125th his camera would drop the ISO 3 stops and he'd be shooting at ISO 100 instead of ISO 800, and it would make all the difference in the world.

That's why I wrote above that "the FZ200 can produce some excellent quality images when things are set and done well". Do the right things with the FZ200 and you get great images, do the wrong thing with even a great equipment and you get poor results.

Cheers,

Rudy

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Vandyu
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Re: Canon 7D - same white-tailed deer I shot yesterday with my FZ200
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

I have to agree, Rudy, that the FZ200 looks much better at 100% than the Canon. Your shot even shows a bit of running eye on the buck and no smearing of coat hair. Nicely done.

BTW, I had to edit your subject because the website wouldn't allow me to post a reply, saying the subject was too long.

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Vandyu
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Re: Older camera with new technology of FZ200?
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

Good point about settings that can cripple an excellent camera/lens combo.

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ysal
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Re: Canon 7D - same white-tailed deer I shot yesterday with my FZ200
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

Couple of things I noted, you were shooting in ISO 100 vs his 800. Also your subject was in full sun while his was in shade. I know that I loose lots of detail as soon as my subject goes into shade.

Having said all that, I think that the FZ200 (in the hands of a capable photog like you) is a real worthy competitor to many of the more (much more) expensive systems out there!!

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yuki

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windmillgolfer
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Re: Canon 7D - same white-tailed deer I shot yesterday with my FZ200 - note smearing in the fur.
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

Good post Rudy, I missed yesterday's FZ200 post but have now seen it - excellent image.  Totally agree, big bucks do not guarantee great IQ and a superzoom does not mean poor IQ. For good IQ, all aspects count(kit, settings, light and the photographer).  I never felt the 600D  was massively superior to the LX5/FZ150 and wasn't prepared to invest further by upgrading to L glass to see if that made a big difference. So, bye-bye dSLR. Now having fun working with the TZ30 and really like te ability to have Aperture Priority (my preferred option with all cameras).

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leerob
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Re: Canon 7D - same white-tailed deer I shot yesterday with my FZ200 - snow blue
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

snow has a bluish tint also

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Tidewater
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Great post. My two cents...
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

I use both types of cameras and I have seen similar things happen when comparing a dslr with a panny /Zeiss lens.

The Canon buck is showing a lot of shadow noise. The camera probably tried to reduce this and made a mess. That generation of cameras was susceptible to shadow noise at 800 ISO. Rudy OTOH would not let that happen with his FZ.

There is lot of CA on the borders of the snow covered branches and really poor definition which again could be smearing or artifacts. This happens but I have to wonder if the lens was really that good. Also wonder about IS and whether it was on. At any rate the lens on my primitive FZ5 and FZ20 easily outperform most "Kit" lenses on DSLRs.

One other thing, the DOF of the Canon could be so thin that a lot of the deer was a bit out of focus. The DOF with the small sensor Panny is very deep.

There are actually very few situations where an FZ in the hands of someone like Rudy, can't compare favorably with a DSLR

Great post. For more FZ stuff see my above post about color.

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J C Brown
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Re: Canon 7D - same white-tailed deer I shot yesterday with my FZ200
In reply to ysal, Jan 6, 2013

ysal wrote:

Couple of things I noted, you were shooting in ISO 100 vs his 800. Also your subject was in full sun while his was in shade. I know that I loose lots of detail as soon as my subject goes into shade.

Having said all that, I think that the FZ200 (in the hands of a capable photog like you) is a real worthy competitor to many of the more (much more) expensive systems out there!!

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yuki

I agree with yuki's comment about the quality of the FZ200 image and the skill of the photographer. However like yuki I feel that the comparison is not entirely fair.

If you compare the images at full size you will see that there is also a very significant difference between them in terms of scale. For example the width of the eyeball on the right of the central Canon 7D image is only about 70 pixels as compared to about 110 pixels for the width of the eyeball on left of the FZ200 image. Thus the scale of the FZ200 image is about 1.57 greater than that of the Canon 7D image.

Based on the number of pixels in the height of their sensors I would expect the resolution of the Canon 7D to be about 3456/3000 = 1.15 higher than that of the FZ200. However that factor of 1.15 in resolution is not IMHO enough to compensate for the factor of 1.57 in scale.

Jimmy

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RudyPohl
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Re: Canon 7D - same white-tailed deer I shot yesterday with my FZ200
In reply to ysal, Jan 6, 2013

ysal wrote:

Couple of things I noted, you were shooting in ISO 100 vs his 800. Also your subject was in full sun while his was in shade. I know that I loose lots of detail as soon as my subject goes into shade.

Having said all that, I think that the FZ200 (in the hands of a capable photog like you) is a real worthy competitor to many of the more (much more) expensive systems out there!!

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yuki

Hi Yuki:

You are correct about my subject being in full sun, I meant to mention that. His subjects were in the shade, which not only means less overall available light, but it also means less contrast and therefore less detail. Directly lit subjects produce more contrast (unless you overexpose) and as a result contrast detecting focus systems work better.

Nevertheless, despite being in the shade, we can see from his EXIF data that he had an acceptable amount of light going to the sensor and the white snow prove it, but at ISO 800 even the larger 1.6 crop sensor on this high-quality camera could not resolve low contrast animal fur and smearing resulted.

So on second thought, to have made this a truly valid comparison I should have shot some images with the deer in the shade and compared the smearing. However, I wasn't trying to compare the FZ200 and 7D shooting deer in the shade at ISO 800, I was trying show that when out shooting the same subjects on the same day under the same "possible" lighting conditions, the FZ200 has the potential to bring home as good or better images, depending on the choices and actions of the photographer. (I purposely try not to shoot deer in the shade, but even so, as I described in a previous post, had the photographer been aware of his tendency of his camera to smear animal fur at IS0 800 he still had enough "room" in his setting to drop the IS0 to 100 and avoid much of not all of that smear.... sorry for droning on...I'm done now )

Rudy

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Donald B
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Re: Canon 7D - same white-tailed deer I shot yesterday with my FZ200
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

Hi Rudy, Im not surprised, a friend sent me 6 bird photos yesterday to choose which camera was used ( fz150, nikon d7000+3002.8 vr11$7500lens) i got some of them wrong !

cheers don

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MustangJoe
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Re: Older camera with new technology of FZ200?
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

RudyPohl wrote:
Do the right things with the FZ200 and you get great images, do the wrong thing with even a great equipment and you get poor results.

So true and these photos prove that point very well.

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RudyPohl
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Re: Great post. My two cents...
In reply to Tidewater, Jan 6, 2013

Tidewater wrote:

I use both types of cameras and I have seen similar things happen when comparing a dslr with a panny /Zeiss lens.

The Canon buck is showing a lot of shadow noise. The camera probably tried to reduce this and made a mess. That generation of cameras was susceptible to shadow noise at 800 ISO. Rudy OTOH would not let that happen with his FZ.

There is lot of CA on the borders of the snow covered branches and really poor definition which again could be smearing or artifacts. This happens but I have to wonder if the lens was really that good. Also wonder about IS and whether it was on. At any rate the lens on my primitive FZ5 and FZ20 easily outperform most "Kit" lenses on DSLRs.

One other thing, the DOF of the Canon could be so thin that a lot of the deer was a bit out of focus. The DOF with the small sensor Panny is very deep.

There are actually very few situations where an FZ in the hands of someone like Rudy, can't compare favorably with a DSLR

Great post. For more FZ stuff see my above post about color.

Hi Tidewater:

Thanks for your insightful input. Regarding the other fellow's lens, I don't know the model of lens but the bright red ring around the end of the barrel was pretty obvious, it was definitely L glass.

Also, the fact that his aperture was f 6.3, and that he was some distance from the deer would mean that his depth of field would have had to be sufficiently deep.

I got the impression that he was more of a hobbyist than an enthusiast, and so I suspect he really didn't know how messed up animal fur can get at ISO 800, even on such a good camera.

Thanks again,

Rudy

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Kevin Coppalotti
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Earth to fanboys
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

I have shot extensively with Canon DSLR's and can state categorically that no panny compact has ever come remotely close to the file quality in Canon dslr on the same settings.

I use the FZ150 and it has two advantages, - it is silent in operation for working near skittish wildlife, and it has deep  DOF when shooting at close range and 600 mm due to small sensor crop factor.

The panny has a shocking amount of noise even at 100 iso, - my fz never moves past 100 iso, ever.

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RudyPohl
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Re: Earth to fanboys
In reply to Kevin Coppalotti, Jan 6, 2013

Kevin Coppalotti wrote:

I have shot extensively with Canon DSLR's and can state categorically that no panny compact has ever come remotely close to the file quality in Canon dslr on the same settings.

I use the FZ150 and it has two advantages, - it is silent in operation for working near skittish wildlife, and it has deep DOF when shooting at close range and 600 mm due to small sensor crop factor.

The panny has a shocking amount of noise even at 100 iso, - my fz never moves past 100 iso, ever.

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Hi Kevin:

Please hear me when I say that I am not doing a comparison of the FZ200 and the 7D shooting the same subject at similar settings, nor am I even remotely suggesting that the FZ200 is a better camera it's not.

If you have a few moments, please read my own posts in this thread and you'll see what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that when you do things right the FZ200 can produce great images, and when you do things wrong even great equipment like the 7D and L glass won't give you good results.

P.S. I love the 7D and I used to own a 5D Mark II.

Rudy

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Jerry045
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Re: Earth to fanboys
In reply to RudyPohl, Jan 6, 2013

Rudy;

You are certainly more familiar with the 7D than I am. Does that camera have settings like ours where you can dial in different values of noise reduction and sharpness?  I was just wondering if the 7D had such options, perhaps the smearing might be due to a poor setting selection of those type items.

Another factor might be the image stabilization. We don't know if he had his IS turned on or not, or how it stacks up to the Panny's.  These might be factors in the differences along with the ISO settings.

Just a thought.....

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