If Sigma had a mirrorless camera (CSC) ... pros/cons

Started Dec 28, 2012 | Discussions
Petroglyph
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Re: Thanks all for your feedback!
In reply to Hardy Steiner, Dec 29, 2012

I think there are some enhancements Sigma can do to the DP*M series.  A faster lens would be great, say f1.8.  A DP3M with a portrait length prime on it.  Sony style IBIS or Pentax style SR.  Note that the faster lens and IBIS helps defeat the Low ISO requirement indoors.  As to your original question DSLR is based on 40-50 year old mirror technology and has moving parts but it is still hard to beat for certain types of shooting.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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My wacky thought on a proper mirror less replacement to a DSLR
In reply to Hardy Steiner, Dec 29, 2012

My main problem with a mirrorless replacement to a DSLR is that it ends up meaning "replace the viewfinder with an EVF".

I have yet to see an EVF I like at all better than an optical viewfinder.  You are just asking too much of a pixel based display in a small space.

But it's not like I don't want live view, it's not like I do not want the benefit of seeing not just through the lens, but the sensor itself.  It's just that I can't see how am EVF gets good enough.

So here's my thought on a real shift in how DSLRS are made.  Have no viewfinder as we know it today, but instead incorperate something like the Hoodman Loupe into the design of the DSLR itself.

Then all you have is the rear LCD, just like most compacts today.  But you also have the ability to hold the camera up to your eye and have the framed view fill your whole eye, just as with any viewfinder.  Instead of looking at a tiny LCD now you could be looking wholly at a 4" retina quality display from just inches away which really could be even nicer than the largest optical viewfinder.

If you were clever in design you could even allow for the shooter to keep the other eye open to have an eye on the action, just as you can today (with the Hoodman as is, the camera generally blocks your view).

The shape of such a thing would be different than the DSLR we know today, but it is the way I think to fully embrace a mirrorless DSLR.

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Hardy Steiner
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Re: My wacky thought on a proper mirror less replacement to a DSLR
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Dec 29, 2012

Your idea sounds quite good. I am quite a bit wondering if an EVF is really necessary if you have a nice big display. I remember me using a Bronica 645 and I was amazed by the beautiful "display" (the view on the focusing screen using a waist level focusing finder) ... and if you wanted you could put a viewfinder on top (sounds a bit similar to your Horseman viewfinder).

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Hardy Steiner
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Re: Thanks all for your feedback!
In reply to Petroglyph, Dec 29, 2012

Faster lenses would make the camera bigger, so for me this is not good. I don't really need anything faster than f2.8 for landscape (this is what I am mainly interested in).

The CSC is really to me the correct embracement of a new technology ... DSLR is just an adaption (as you mentioned correctly).

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Petroglyph
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Re: Thanks all for your feedback!
In reply to Hardy Steiner, Dec 29, 2012

For a fast lens that is really pretty small take a look at the Pentax FA 43mm limited which is f1.9 (and not bad) wide open.  This would approach portrait length on a Sigma sized APS/C about 67mm in 135 equivalent terms.  I understand only being interested in landscape for this type camera but maybe the longer faster lens would appeal to shooters with different interests.

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Hardy Steiner
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Re: Thanks all for your feedback!
In reply to Petroglyph, Dec 29, 2012

I was only commenting on my own personal interests ... so to me the DP series is mainly interesting for landscape shots. Maybe one day Sigma will release a DP camera which covers your interest for a fast lens. I guess it is not very easy to create a small fast and good lens. I am assuming that the Pentax lens you pointed out is a pan cake style lens, which have certain trade offs (usually). It would be good to understand if such a lens would  really perform well on a Foveon sensor, which is very demanding.

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joaquin100
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Re: Thanks all for your feedback!
In reply to Hardy Steiner, Dec 30, 2012

Hardy Steiner wrote:

I was only commenting on my own personal interests ... so to me the DP series is mainly interesting for landscape shots. Maybe one day Sigma will release a DP camera which covers your interest for a fast lens. I guess it is not very easy to create a small fast and good lens.

As you said the Foveon sensor is very demanding and so far i am impressed with the little 19mm F2.8 Sigma made for NEX.

i just uploaded a sample from it,  The Lens attached makes a small package and it fits perfectly in Jackets pocket (i went skiing yesterday with it, very comfortable).

http://www.pbase.com/highlights/image/148078103

http://www.pbase.com/highlights/image/148078100

i can imagine this lenses on a DP, time will tell.

J.

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Hardy Steiner
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Re: Thanks all for your feedback!
In reply to joaquin100, Dec 30, 2012

Very nice pictures, thanks for sharing! I had the Nex 7 in my hands several times in the camera store ... certainly a very interesting camera.

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Tom Schum
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Re: My wacky thought on a proper mirror less replacement to a DSLR
In reply to Hardy Steiner, Dec 30, 2012

Hardy Steiner wrote:

Your idea sounds quite good. I am quite a bit wondering if an EVF is really necessary if you have a nice big display. I remember me using a Bronica 645 and I was amazed by the beautiful "display" (the view on the focusing screen using a waist level focusing finder) ... and if you wanted you could put a viewfinder on top (sounds a bit similar to your Horseman viewfinder).

The EVF (a 2.36M dot OLED unit) on the Fuji X-E1 is really good, I think.  And the only Fuji lens I have for it, the 18-55 zoom is really good, too.

The hoodman loupe on the back display would be great for a SD1 and any DPxM while live-view focusing.  Of course at this point the SD1 does not have any sort of live-view at all.

This is something that really bothers me about the SD1.  I don't care whether they do it with a mirrorless or with a SD1 II, but I think the entire SA-mount lens line would benefit.  Besides, I have a significant investment in SA-mount lenses and I'm tired of manually focusing and I'm tired of focus bracketing too.

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Petroglyph
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Re: My wacky thought on a proper mirror less replacement to a DSLR
In reply to Tom Schum, Dec 31, 2012

Of course the hoodman loupe fits in the hot shoe and is meant for a dslr.  I'll try it on a SD2M and see if it can be made to have a decent fit.  Unless you have tried this yourself already please advise.  The loop will give a 3X optical enlargement for focusing and block out light incident on the LCD in sunlight.  If it can be made to fit tightly on the small DP2M it might be worth a try.  I'll set it up and take a shot to show folks what it would look like.  Very interesting idea.

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Petroglyph
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Re: Hoodman loupe cannot be made to fit DP*M
In reply to Petroglyph, Dec 31, 2012

It sits about 2-3 cm low from the highest adjustment.  The loupe eould line up and cover the LCD screen if it could be adjusted high enough.  Hands free operation would not be possible.  Holding the loupe over the screen would be impractical.

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victorgv
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Re: Hoodman loupe cannot be made to fit DP*M
In reply to Petroglyph, Dec 31, 2012

Petroglyph wrote:

It sits about 2-3 cm low from the highest adjustment. The loupe eould line up and cover the LCD screen if it could be adjusted high enough. Hands free operation would not be possible. Holding the loupe over the screen would be impractical.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/B0020HRCHU/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_0?ie=UTF8&index=0&isremote=0

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D Cox
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Re: unbalanced
In reply to SigmaChrome, Dec 31, 2012

SigmaChrome wrote:

stanislaw stitchanow wrote:

I do not want to handhold a DP style camera with a 70-200mm lens, with a 120-300mm lens etc. that even with no viewfinder. How can one mange to handheld such a system?

Absolutely! I have briefly used a NEX 5 with a telephoto zoom attached. I was unbalanced and ungainly in the extreme. ​It was almost impossible to handle without pressing buttons I didn't intend to. I hated it.

I regularly use a 5N with a 200mm prime lens (Nikkor f/4). It works fine.

Admittedly you can accidentally press the Movie button, but this can happen with any lens on the 5N. It is simply bad placement.

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Scott Greiff
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Re: My wacky thought on a proper mirror less replacement to a DSLR
In reply to Hardy Steiner, Dec 31, 2012

Hardy Steiner wrote:

Your idea sounds quite good. I am quite a bit wondering if an EVF is really necessary if you have a nice big display. I remember me using a Bronica 645 and I was amazed by the beautiful "display" (the view on the focusing screen using a waist level focusing finder) ... and if you wanted you could put a viewfinder on top (sounds a bit similar to your Horseman viewfinder).

Big displays are nice until you reach an age where you need reading glasses.  At that point an EVF with diopter adjustment is most welcome.

-Scott

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SigmaChrome
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Re: If Sigma had a mirrorless camera (CSC) ... pros/cons
In reply to Laurence Matson, Dec 31, 2012

Laurence Matson wrote:

Sigma's delay has always been due to the OVF, which on virtually all cameras are practically useless save for framing. If they can find a way to cram sufficient resolution into that screen and figure out how to light the thing and not have it look like a 1950s space-invaders movie set, then it might happen. In the last year or two, there have been some interesting third-party developments in this field.

Personally, I love the OVF. It really is the only way to see what's actually in front of the camera. A viewfinder like the one in a SLR or a good range-finder with a display at the bottom is all I want for framing my shots. So long as it's sharp and clear and accurately displays my subject in real time, it's enough. The way I look at it; I'd rather wear glasses that be forced to look through an EVF.

I've shot many weddings on cameras that have live view and I've never once used it to frame a shot. This does not mean that LV doesn't have its place. It's perfect for product work and as an aid to critical focus. To tell the truth, I'd probably be just as happy with a ground glass focusing screen and a magnifier.

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