IQ, old F20/30 vs. XF1 (I a should have asked it this way before)

Started Dec 21, 2012 | Discussions
CAcreeks
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Re: The trouble with Auto DR ...
In reply to danny_only, Dec 27, 2012

danny_only wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

danny_only wrote:

M-size is no longer needed in newer Fuji cameras...  I was referring to X-10 and X-F1, the sensor is well balanced in DR, Resolution and Noise department, making it a good alternate solution to the EXR sensor for Fujifilm.

Still the best general setting for every EXR camera in my opinion.

I agree with KimL here, not Danny_only.

The imaging-resource.com tests of the X10 show terrible highlight blow-out at L size. Much worse than competitive cameras such as the G12 or P7100. Take a look at the Dynamic Range series on their Samples page. The 100% is just awful, 200% is a bit better, and 400% is great. In this scene AutoDR has selected something in between 100 and 200% (wow). Bad decision!

These samples are L size and do not take advantage of hardware EXR, so the 400% is at ISO 400 unnecessarily. Fortunately the X10 is still very good at ISO 400. I don't know if AutoDR would work better in M size. Probably not.

Bottom line: just because Hugo says he shoots the F200EXR  at DR 200% in dark inner-city conditions, it does not mean everybody should shoot all EXR cameras like that.

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Barry Fitzgerald
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Re: IQ, old F20/30 vs. XF1 (I a should have asked it this way before)
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Dec 27, 2012

Kim Letkeman wrote:

Andrew Swihart wrote:

This is an extremely unscientific test, but it was striking nonetheless to see how much better the XF1 did than the old F30. I just took a handheld shot of my dad in poor lighting with both cameras with the F30 on Auto, EXR mode on XF1. Looking at these now, it seems that maybe the F30 didn't focus correctly, so I'd like to give it a second chance tonight.

Nice shot ... there is no surprise at all in the beating that the XF1 laid on the F30

Nothing is sharp on the F30 shot camera shake seems to be the problem

Yes the newer models have faster lenses so I'd expect them to do better in low light

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Wellington100
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Re: The trouble with Auto DR ...
In reply to CAcreeks, Dec 27, 2012

CAcreeks wrote:

danny_only wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

danny_only wrote:

M-size is no longer needed in newer Fuji cameras... I was referring to X-10 and X-F1, the sensor is well balanced in DR, Resolution and Noise department, making it a good alternate solution to the EXR sensor for Fujifilm.

Still the best general setting for every EXR camera in my opinion.

I agree with KimL here, not Danny_only.

The imaging-resource.com tests of the X10 show terrible highlight blow-out at L size. Much worse than competitive cameras such as the G12 or P7100. Take a look at the Dynamic Range series on their Samples page. The 100% is just awful, 200% is a bit better, and 400% is great. In this scene AutoDR has selected something in between 100 and 200% (wow). Bad decision!

These samples are L size and do not take advantage of hardware EXR, so the 400% is at ISO 400 unnecessarily. Fortunately the X10 is still very good at ISO 400. I don't know if AutoDR would work better in M size. Probably not.

Bottom line: just because Hugo says he shoots the F200EXR at DR 200% in dark inner-city conditions, it does not mean everybody should shoot all EXR cameras like that.

I agree with you. Hugo is a special case. His low contrast night shots of Hong Kong are brilliant and he was the 1st person to show how good  SuperCCD sensors were in low light. But in my experience, defaulting to DR400% as a set and forget setting is the only way to go because it is much better to add missing contrast to a high DR image in PP, than it is to subtract it from a contrasty image which may have blocked shadows and or blown highlights.

If you use DR100% or 200% in light with any contrast and you remove some contrast from the image, the underexposed areas look really terrible. Its much better to start with a flatter, well exposed image and add contrast to it when needed.

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danny_only
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Re: The virtues with Auto DR ...
In reply to CAcreeks, Dec 28, 2012

CAcreeks wrote:

*is care free and efforts saving We are taking about low cost snap shot cameras.

danny_only wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

danny_only wrote:

M-size is no longer needed in newer Fuji cameras... I was referring to X-10 and X-F1, the sensor is well balanced in DR, Resolution and Noise department, making it a good alternate solution to the EXR sensor for Fujifilm.

Still the best general setting for every EXR camera in my opinion.

I agree with KimL here, not Danny_only.

The imaging-resource.com tests of the X10 show terrible highlight blow-out at L size. Much worse than competitive cameras such as the G12 or P7100. Take a look at the Dynamic Range series on their Samples page. The 100% is just awful, 200% is a bit better, and 400% is great. In this scene AutoDR has selected something in between 100 and 200% (wow). Bad decision!

Kindly read my replies to Kim before you reply to me. Kim and I were talking about different new Fuji cameras.

BTW, I only posted several (may be 1 or 2 pictures of a house with red door, taken on the peak within the first 3 months I bought the F200, if I remember right) F200 pictures taken at L-size and mentioned I didn't like it and then I posted hundreds of F200 pictures taken at M-size in the past 3+ years. Does it tell you my stand? So kindly read all my posts, perhaps all my posts regarding setting of F200.

These samples are L size and do not take advantage of hardware EXR, so the 400% is at ISO 400 unnecessarily. Fortunately the X10 is still very good at ISO 400. I don't know if AutoDR would work better in M size. Probably not.

Bottom line: just because Hugo says he shoots the F200EXR at DR 200% in dark inner-city conditions, it does not mean everybody should shoot all EXR cameras like that.

Bottom line: Hugo's final decision of using DR200% in the later stage of his usage of F200 has nothing to do with my usage of Auto DR on my F200 (my son's F300 and my ex-F200 now permanent on loan to my sister-in-law), I am still using it. My (only) test of manual forcing the DR to 400 was scene of a ferry under sunny day, the high contrast between white and dark color areas of the body made me want to use it as a test. The camera selected DR200 (or DR100) I can't remember clearly, I thought no way so I take another picture using DR400. When I looked at both pictures at home, I found the F200 made a good decision, not me. Since than I use Auto DR and no more testing.

BTW, city nightscapes are not dark conditions as you can see in most of my pictures, actually most of the times high contrast light and most of the times the F200 selected DR400, so I tell myself why should I bother with the DR setting?

Both Image-Resources and Hugo's finding are guidelines only, we should explore by ourselves.

All in all, I want to do care free shooting and save PP time (I recently use DXO Velvia simulation to save my already short 1+ minutes PP time to 1- minutes PP time). I guess, why not let other EXR owners decide for themselves, I think many will follow your suggestion and some may simply use Auto DR for ecare free shooting like I do.

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Danny
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Kim Letkeman
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Re: The trouble with Auto DR ...
In reply to danny_only, Dec 28, 2012

danny_only wrote:

Agree, but I was referring to X-10 and X-F1, the sensor is well balanced in DR, Resolution and Noise department, making it a good alternate solution to the EXR sensor for Fujifilm.

Still the best general setting for every EXR camera in my opinion.

The X10 and XF1 are EXR cameras through and through with all the attendant complexities and edge and noise artifacts that implies. I have always been willing to accept it with the F550EXR (and soon the F770EXR that has shipped today), but I am not so sure that I would be willing to accept it on the more expensive cameras.

As for L size, DR400 still requires 400 ISO and that is simply unacceptable to me ...

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: IQ, old F20/30 vs. XF1 (I a should have asked it this way before)
In reply to Barry Fitzgerald, Dec 28, 2012

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

Andrew Swihart wrote:

This is an extremely unscientific test, but it was striking nonetheless to see how much better the XF1 did than the old F30. I just took a handheld shot of my dad in poor lighting with both cameras with the F30 on Auto, EXR mode on XF1. Looking at these now, it seems that maybe the F30 didn't focus correctly, so I'd like to give it a second chance tonight.

Nice shot ... there is no surprise at all in the beating that the XF1 laid on the F30

Nothing is sharp on the F30 shot camera shake seems to be the problem

Yes the newer models have faster lenses so I'd expect them to do better in low light

They also have better JPEG engines, much more efficient sensors at M size and a slew of improved handling features ... plus of course far better lenses.

Other than that, though, it's close

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danny_only
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Re: The trouble with Auto DR ...
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Dec 28, 2012

Kim Letkeman wrote:

danny_only wrote:

Agree, but I was referring to X-10 and X-F1, the sensor is well balanced in DR, Resolution and Noise department, making it a good alternate solution to the EXR sensor for Fujifilm.

Still the best general setting for every EXR camera in my opinion.

The X10 and XF1 are EXR cameras through and through with all the attendant complexities and edge and noise artifacts that implies. I have always been willing to accept it with the F550EXR (and soon the F770EXR that has shipped today), but I am not so sure that I would be willing to accept it on the more expensive cameras.

I can ignore the multiple choices of settings on EXR camera and so far lucky with lens decentered problem (I bought 2 F200 and 1 F300, tested about 8 of these cameras before taking cameras home, so far only my first F200 had lens decentered problem) but it is the artifacts which is a little annoying, Fuji cameras I used (F30/F40/F47/F100/F200/F300) never look good at 100% because of the designs of the sensors.

I have a poor man's solution, if I finally want to buy the XF-1, I will wait for the price drop

As for L size, DR400 still requires 400 ISO and that is simply unacceptable to me ...

Thanks for your hints, if I finally buy the X-F1, I will go to your blog to look for usage opinions.

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Danny
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Re: The trouble with Auto DR ...
In reply to danny_only, Dec 28, 2012

Kim doesnt buy any camera unless it has 200X zoom.

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Kim Letkeman
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not that interesting ...
In reply to rattymouse, Dec 28, 2012

rattymouse wrote:

Kim doesnt buy any camera unless it has 200X zoom.

Another bitter, yet amusing quip from the angry man

Kim buys all sorts of cameras and lenses. And, as you should know by now, most of my cameras do not have lenses at all. You have to buy those separately lol ...

I shoot the GX1 and 19mm (38mm EFL) 2.8 as my general walk around now. Pretty similar to your X100 but a lot cheaper and way more fun to shoot (I tested that one and would not own it ... I like to actually lock on to what I want to capture.)

And I can also mount the 100-300 for 200-600 EFL if I feel like it. Try that with your XF1 or X100

Seriously ... you need a new shtick ... your little vendetta is as dull as dishwater any more.

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rube39
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Re: IQ, old F20/30 vs. XF1 (I a should have asked it this way before)
In reply to DS21, Dec 30, 2012

DS21 wrote:

The best cheap alternative to XF1 is used (or new old stock) F200EXR. In my opinion best F series Fuji ever, and I used or tried most all of them since F10. F40 is pretty good for its time, but 3x zoom seems limiting today compared to F200. F50 is very noisy at ISO 400 and above and best avoided. F200 also works with xD cards.<

Joel,

I agree (and so apparently does Kim L) that the F200 is about the best of the whole F series. I still have and use mine (sometimes). That being said, I would still get the much newer F770. It starts at 25mm and goes all the way up to 500mm. And it is very cheap now, at least in Japan, going for well under US$200. It shoots in raw too. I got one as a 'pocket birder' and use it once a week when going to KGU, where there are often fowl on the college pond.

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Rube

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