IQ, old F20/30 vs. XF1 (I a should have asked it this way before)

Started Dec 21, 2012 | Discussions
DS21
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Re: IQ, old F20/30 vs. XF1 (I a should have asked it this way before)
In reply to Eddaweaver, Dec 24, 2012

Eddaweaver wrote:

Thanks, something to consider, but I wonder if this would rival the XF1

The F40fd won't rival the XF1 except perhaps in low ISO resolution.

The best cheap alternative to XF1 is used (or new old stock) F200EXR. In my opinion best F series Fuji ever, and I used or tried most all of them since F10. F40 is pretty good for its time, but 3x zoom seems limiting today compared to F200. F50 is very noisy at ISO 400 and above and best avoided. F200 also works with xD cards.

Cheap is going to be a relative term. A second hand F200EXR would cost alot more than a second hand F40fd. There's an F200EXR for sale for US$100 which I think is good value, especially compared with the insane prices people are still trying to sell F31fds for.

It does have a wide angle lens. On the down side its lens aperture maxes at f3.3, it lacks an aperture iris and the minimum non macro focus distance is 80cm. Its resolution is somewhat lower than its pixel count suggests but it does have better colour than earlier F series cameras.

It's a good choice on the second hand market but it isn't quite a dirt cheap backup option.

http://www.flickr.com/groups/1040574@N23/pool/

The old F cameras are just too old to be viable alternative to XF1, mostly in features and lack of wide angle. In practical use 3.3 aperture is not much different from 2.8, especially with the quality of F200 sensor. I don't know where did you get the 80 cm minimum non-macro focus distance for F200, it is more like 25 cm. As for resolution, there is not much difference between F200 and XF1, both are 12 MP with EXR sensor layout and associated slight performance drop at full resolution. XF1 1.8 lens is just a little additional feature which works only at 25 mm, very quickly becomes F4 as you zoom even a little. What do you consider dirt cheap, for a camera with equal, and in some cases better IQ then XF1, with significantly more zoom range and better flash performance?

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Joel Stern
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Re: WmAx
In reply to WmAx, Dec 24, 2012

WmAx wrote:

If you require a special comparison between the two, let me know and be very specific under what conditions and modes you need to see and I'll give you the picture files.

Thanks again and for your offer. I think you have answered my question, it may not be the same as an X10 (due to lens from what I read) but it will best the 20 and 30, that is good to know.

Thank you

Joel Stern

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WmAx
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Re: WmAx
In reply to Joel Stern, Dec 24, 2012

Okay, well glad I was of some limited help.

I thought about the x10, but (1) it's bigger than I want, as I needed a cam specifically to take anywhere at all times; protruding lens on x10 made it not viable. (2) As silly as it seems, the sheer ugliness of the x10 turns me off - repulses me - if it was at least available in silver like the xf1, it would not be ugly IMO - then ther is still number (1) reason.

I use another camera when I want the best photos, but it's a much bigger unit and not practical to put in a pocket, etc..

Chris

Joel Stern wrote:

WmAx wrote:

If you require a special comparison between the two, let me know and be very specific under what conditions and modes you need to see and I'll give you the picture files.

Thanks again and for your offer. I think you have answered my question, it may not be the same as an X10 (due to lens from what I read) but it will best the 20 and 30, that is good to know.

Thank you

Joel Stern

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Joel Stern
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Re: WmAx
In reply to WmAx, Dec 24, 2012

WmAx wrote:

Okay, well glad I was of some limited help.

I thought about the x10, but (1) it's bigger than I want, as I needed a cam specifically to take anywhere at all times; protruding lens on x10 made it not viable. (2) As silly as it seems, the sheer ugliness of the x10 turns me off - repulses me - if it was at least available in silver like the xf1, it would not be ugly IMO - then ther is still number (1) reason.

I use another camera when I want the best photos, but it's a much bigger unit and not practical to put in a pocket, etc..

Chris

Joel Stern wrote:

WmAx wrote:

If you require a special comparison between the two, let me know and be very specific under what conditions and modes you need to see and I'll give you the picture files.

Thanks again and for your offer. I think you have answered my question, it may not be the same as an X10 (due to lens from what I read) but it will best the 20 and 30, that is good to know.

Thank you

Joel Stern

Chris, like you I do the same, I have my X-E1 and I have a sony RX100 which is very nice, this will be a replacement for my daughter for her X20 unless i like it better than the sony.

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Kim Letkeman
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actually ...
In reply to Trevor G, Dec 25, 2012

Trevor G wrote:

Joel Stern wrote:

I have the chance of replacing my daughters dead F20 with one of these at a good price new (a bit better then then $399 deal). It all depends on the IQ, the F20 and 30 were always quite wonderful for what they were, how does this new XF1 stack up?

The F31 is still a remarkable camera. I just gave one to my son, who likes to take fuzzy photos of car parts on his iPhone in low light.

The F31 is much better, and is quite usable up to ISO1600.

As such, it is no worse than a current X10 or XF1, but is considerably more pocketable.

The X10 and XF1 will shoot at 1600 and 3200 with less of the "painterly effect" from noise reduction. Especially when shot correctly: How to Shoot an EXR Camera

These two will also preserve highlights much better if shot at DR400 and will not turn the edges of every light bright purple.

There really is no contest.

And finally .... the F series in that day and age was not really pocketable ... the bodies were too thick and the edges too square ... for pocketable, the F800EXR and its ilk are a better bet. Shot in RAW they can easily beat the F31 ...

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Andrew Swihart
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Re: IQ, old F20/30 vs. XF1 (I a should have asked it this way before)
In reply to Joel Stern, Dec 25, 2012

I just bought my Dad the XF1 for Christmas to upgrade from his F30, which he has really loved using for many years. I bought him a Panasonic LX5 last year, which went largely unused due to perceived complexity, lens cap annoyance, increased weight, and worse results used as a set it and forget it point and shoot camera . It may have better image quality when used by an experienced photographer, but as a quick point and shoot for the layman, I've been surprised that in our experience the the Fuji F30 actually surpasses the LX5. It produces much better JPEGs, colors, does not blur moving subjects like the LX5 seems to do constantly when not in shutter priority mode, is smaller, and has amazing battery life.

He expressed some uncertainty about the XF1 because of the on / off zoom ring mechanism, but I'm hopeful he can live with that. Although he has always been very enthusiastic about cameras and taking photos, he is very much a point and shoot kind of guy, doesn't want to change a single setting prior to taking a photo. I chose the XF1 for him over the RX100 because it seemed more point and shoot friendly, has a familiar Fuji user interface, and was ~1/3 cheaper when I bought it! I'll try to report back with our impressions after a few days of use.

Also, to correct a previous post, the F30 is a bit smaller and lighter than the XF1.

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Re: IQ, old F20/30 vs. XF1 (I a should have asked it this way before)
In reply to Andrew Swihart, Dec 25, 2012

Based on your text, I would never, EVER buy an EXR camera such as the XF1 for someone who does not want to change settings.  The EXR virtually demands such.

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Trevor G
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Re: WmAx and a silver X10
In reply to WmAx, Dec 25, 2012

WmAx wrote:

(2) As silly as it seems, the sheer ugliness of the x10 turns me off - repulses me - if it was at least available in silver like the xf1, it would not be ugly IMO -

What a shocking thing to say about an object of sheer beauty!

Do you really like the XF1???

I love the looks and feel of my X10 - maybe the next major upgrade will be a silver model just for you?

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WmAx
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Re: WmAx and a silver X10
In reply to Trevor G, Dec 26, 2012

I would not get an X10 even if in silver, it's just too close to the XF1, but the XF1 is truly pocket-able.

I might consider the XS-1, but I would only get it if that lens was really sharp/clean through it's whole range; and the sample shots(best I have seen from imageing-resource) are set with the camera at defaults settings which makes it very hard to discern what is a problem from the lens and what is a problem from what's behind the lens. Default settings on the XF1 sucked also, and I might buy the XS1 from a place and consider returning it if it does not meet my requirements. I have resolution test charts that I use to analyze my cameras lens resolution at all sections of the lens and I measure at all focal ranges and apertures.

Trevor G wrote:

WmAx wrote:

(2) As silly as it seems, the sheer ugliness of the x10 turns me off - repulses me - if it was at least available in silver like the xf1, it would not be ugly IMO -

What a shocking thing to say about an object of sheer beauty!

Do you really like the XF1???

I love the looks and feel of my X10 - maybe the next major upgrade will be a silver model just for you?

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Trevor G
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Kim Letkeman
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one setting to rule them all ...
In reply to rattymouse, Dec 26, 2012

rattymouse wrote:

Based on your text, I would never, EVER buy an EXR camera such as the XF1 for someone who does not want to change settings. The EXR virtually demands such.

Well, you do know that there are many who enjoy shooting the EXR camera 99% of the time with the simple setting I document on my blog.

P mode
M size
DR400
Auto ISO 1600 or 3200 depending on your tolerance for noise

It really is that easy to get great results.

And for those who shoot the X10, XF1 or X-S1, add:

Low sharpen
Low contrast
Default saturation

... and process the JPEGs in Lightroom 4.

Easy peasy ...

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danny_only
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Re: Hi Joel...
In reply to Joel Stern, Dec 26, 2012

Joel Stern wrote:

Such a busy forum, surprise no one has an opinion on this one.... I am just wanting to know how it does against the best of the F's.

I have been very busy, but severl days ago I had a telephone conversation with Hugo, he is enjoying using the XF1, I guess F20/F30 are already cameras in the past, even the F100 is A Camera of No Return (to F30), not to mention the F200.

BTW, I asked him, if it is beneficial to use M-Size on XF-1, he said "Not anymore, the L-Size shows more details and not much degradation in the DR and noise departments.

So good luck with your new purchase and check for lens decentered problem before taking the XF-1 home.

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Re: Hi Joel...
In reply to danny_only, Dec 26, 2012

danny_only wrote:

Joel Stern wrote:

Such a busy forum, surprise no one has an opinion on this one.... I am just wanting to know how it does against the best of the F's.

I have been very busy, but severl days ago I had a telephone conversation with Hugo, he is enjoying using the XF1, I guess F20/F30 are already cameras in the past, even the F100 is A Camera of No Return (to F30), not to mention the F200.

BTW, I asked him, if it is beneficial to use M-Size on XF-1, he said "Not anymore, the L-Size shows more details and not much degradation in the DR and noise departments.

I will now follow Hugo's suggestions.  He is the master of the Fujifilm cameras.

So good luck with your new purchase and check for lens decentered problem before taking the XF-1 home.

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Danny
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Re: one setting to rule them all ...
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Dec 26, 2012

Kim Letkeman wrote:

Well, you do know that there are many who enjoy shooting the EXR camera 99% of the time with the simple setting I document on my blog.

P mode
M size
DR400
Auto ISO 1600 or 3200 depending on your tolerance for noise

It really is that easy to get great results.

And for those who shoot the X10, XF1 or X-S1, add:

Low sharpen
Low contrast
Default saturation

... and process the JPEGs in Lightroom 4.

Easy peasy ...

I also use similar easy/leisure settings when shooting my F200exr (and F300exr), almost 99.9% of the time.

P Mode

M Size

Auto DR

Auto ISO400 for good light

Auto ISO1600 for poor light (for F300exr, I may use ISO800 in this case).

One caveat, for F200, when it selects DR400 and ISO400, the artifacts are not pleasant to view at full size, if time permits and I want to make a larger print, I will over-ride the camera, by fixing either ISO or DR.

Some of my F200exr pictures captured with above settings:

Mainly PPed with DXO only using Velvia Simulation only











BTW, Kim do you find any advantages using M-Size on XF-1?

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danny_only
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Re: Hi Joel...
In reply to rattymouse, Dec 26, 2012

rattymouse wrote:

danny_only wrote:

Joel Stern wrote:

Such a busy forum, surprise no one has an opinion on this one.... I am just wanting to know how it does against the best of the F's.

I have been very busy, but severl days ago I had a telephone conversation with Hugo, he is enjoying using the XF1, I guess F20/F30 are already cameras in the past, even the F100 is A Camera of No Return (to F30), not to mention the F200.

BTW, I asked him, if it is beneficial to use M-Size on XF-1, he said "Not anymore, the L-Size shows more details and not much degradation in the DR and noise departments.

I will now follow Hugo's suggestions. He is the master of the Fujifilm cameras.

So good luck with your new purchase and check for lens decentered problem before taking the XF-1 home.

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Agreed. I am also waiting for Kim's opinion of using M-Size on XF-1.

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Andrew Swihart
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Re: IQ, old F20/30 vs. XF1 (I a should have asked it this way before)
In reply to rattymouse, Dec 26, 2012

rattymouse wrote:

Based on your text, I would never, EVER buy an EXR camera such as the XF1 for someone who does not want to change settings. The EXR virtually demands such.

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Well, despite what you say, it's giving us very nice results so far just leaving it in EXR mode. Thanks a lot for the suggested settings, Kim! I'll give those a try next.

This is an extremely unscientific test, but it was striking nonetheless to see how much better the XF1 did than the old F30. I just took a handheld shot of my dad in poor lighting with both cameras with the F30 on Auto, EXR mode on XF1. Looking at these now, it seems that maybe the F30 didn't focus correctly, so I'd like to give it a second chance tonight.

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CAcreeks
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The trouble with Auto DR ...
In reply to danny_only, Dec 26, 2012

danny_only wrote:

I also use similar easy/leisure settings when shooting my F200exr (and F300exr), almost 99.9% of the time.

  • P Mode
  • M Size
  • Auto DR
  • Auto ISO400 for good light, Auto ISO1600 for poor light

The trouble with Auto DR is that it sometimes chooses 100% or 200% and blows highlights.

I don't see the point of that, because in M size, 400% is no noisier than other settings. And DR 400% gives you that wonderful S-shaped tone curve that we always adored in the bad old film days.

The X10 was better in L size than previous F models, indicating that Fuji improved their EXR algorithms. It would be interesting to test the XF1 and perhaps current F models.

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: IQ, old F20/30 vs. XF1 (I a should have asked it this way before)
In reply to Andrew Swihart, Dec 26, 2012

Andrew Swihart wrote:

This is an extremely unscientific test, but it was striking nonetheless to see how much better the XF1 did than the old F30. I just took a handheld shot of my dad in poor lighting with both cameras with the F30 on Auto, EXR mode on XF1. Looking at these now, it seems that maybe the F30 didn't focus correctly, so I'd like to give it a second chance tonight.

Nice shot ... there is no surprise at all in the beating that the XF1 laid on the F30

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Re: The trouble with Auto DR ...
In reply to CAcreeks, Dec 27, 2012

CAcreeks wrote:

danny_only wrote:

I also use similar easy/leisure settings when shooting my F200exr (and F300exr), almost 99.9% of the time.

  • P Mode
  • M Size
  • Auto DR
  • Auto ISO400 for good light, Auto ISO1600 for poor light

The trouble with Auto DR is that it sometimes chooses 100% or 200% and blows highlights.

I don't see the point of that, because in M size, 400% is no noisier than other settings. And DR 400% gives you that wonderful S-shaped tone curve that we always adored in the bad old film days.

The X10 was better in L size than previous F models, indicating that Fuji improved their EXR algorithms. It would be interesting to test the XF1 and perhaps current F models.

I tried many times setting the DR myself both under harsh sun light or high contrast city night light environment, most of the times, the camera select better DR% then I did and pictures looked better than the control pictures with manual adjusted DR%, so since then I settled for Auto DR for leisure and quick after works shootings.You may be right that some times F200exr may select less than ideal DR%, but I normally use exposure compensation, composition adjustment and/or PP to get the result I like. I am not very picky, most of the times I just want to take a quick snap shot and leave.

As for DR400 and ISO400 poor combination will show odd looking artifacts (looked like small crosses, but rotated 45 degree), I tried to see for myself once after being told by Hugo to avoid such combination. If memory served me right, after several months, Hugo told me he had fixed the DR to 200% on his F200 for most shootings, but I was too lazy to change my Auto DR setting and just leave it there. F200exr is not an enthusiast camera, only 2 apertures,  1 is even achieved by using ND filter and small orifice, imagine a bulldog with 2 teeth only, 1 is artificial teeth not for bitting, how tough can it be?

So I guess now M-size is no longer needed in newer Fuji cameras.

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: The trouble with Auto DR ...
In reply to danny_only, Dec 27, 2012

danny_only wrote:

As for DR400 and ISO400 poor combination will show odd looking artifacts (looked like small crosses, but rotated 45 degree), I tried to see for myself once after being told by Hugo to avoid such combination. If memory served me right, after several months, Hugo told me he had fixed the DR to 200% on his F200 for most shootings, but I was too lazy to change my Auto DR setting and just leave it there. F200exr is not an enthusiast camera, only 2 apertures, 1 is even achieved by using ND filter and small orifice, imagine a bulldog with 2 teeth only, 1 is artificial teeth not for bitting, how tough can it be?

They have three on the newer models and the last one is real. But so what ... real apertures add expense and with such small sensors there is no real DOF control anyway.

As for ISO400 DR400, only a pixel peeper cares, and since when is the 1/2" sensor meant for professional work?

So I guess now M-size is no longer needed in newer Fuji cameras.

Still the best general setting for every EXR camera in my opinion.

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Re: The trouble with Auto DR ...
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Dec 27, 2012

Kim Letkeman wrote:

danny_only wrote:

As for DR400 and ISO400 poor combination will show odd looking artifacts (looked like small crosses, but rotated 45 degree), I tried to see for myself once after being told by Hugo to avoid such combination. If memory served me right, after several months, Hugo told me he had fixed the DR to 200% on his F200 for most shootings, but I was too lazy to change my Auto DR setting and just leave it there. F200exr is not an enthusiast camera, only 2 apertures, 1 is even achieved by using ND filter and small orifice, imagine a bulldog with 2 teeth only, 1 is artificial teeth not for bitting, how tough can it be?

They have three on the newer models and the last one is real. But so what ... real apertures add expense and with such small sensors there is no real DOF control anyway.

As for ISO400 DR400, only a pixel peeper cares, and since when is the 1/2" sensor meant for professional work?

I am an Initial Pixel Peeper, I only pixel peek when I first bought a camera and it never lasted more than 3 months. I am still using Auto DR and Auto ISO400 all the times in good light, seldom changed in the past 3+ years, lazy and F200 is a snap shot camera.

Real aperture is relatively expensive to make, but then it creates appealing star flare which some people like. For the F30, the aperture setting did affect image sharpness, I tested it before, though not by a big margin.

So I guess now M-size is no longer needed in newer Fuji cameras.

Agree, but I was referring to X-10 and X-F1, the sensor is well balanced in DR, Resolution and Noise department, making it a good alternate solution to the EXR sensor for Fujifilm.

Still the best general setting for every EXR camera in my opinion.

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 danny_only's gear list:danny_only's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix F30 Zoom Olympus C-4000 Zoom Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX5 Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ3 +13 more
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