spyder 4 calibration and prints still too dark

i have just calibrated my sony vaio laptop monitor using a spyder 4 express tool.i was assuming that once calibrated i just choose the spyder profile in lightroom and that would be the end of it,but no they still come out dark,in lightroom when it says if using a custom profile make sure colour management in printer settings is off.so that i did and they came out dark.so i started experimenting with printer settings.the only settings that come close to what i see on the screen is having colour management on and have the colour to epson standard with a gamma of 2.2. i was assuming that the spyder profile in lightroom was going to print exactly what was on the screen.

so basically i could do all this before i wasted £80 on a spyder.what am i doing wrong?

You don't choose your monitor profile when printing.  Your monitor profile and the Spyder 4 Express calibration utility takes care of how colors are perceived on the screen, not for your printer.  With Lightroom, you don't need to worry about setting it to identify your monitor profile.  It is already pulling that from Windows.

For your printer, an Epson I see, you turn off the Color Management within its settings (might say ICM Off or Color Management Off).  Don't mess with the gamma or any other dials.

Now choose the paper type you are printing on, paper size, and quality then click OK.

In Lightroom where you can choose a profile, you should see a drop down list of the printer profiles for the different types of paper your printer accepts.  If you don't see them there, then you will need to add them.  As for where they are located, it might be in C:\Windows\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color.  They may have the model number of the printer and then an abbreviation of the paper type (ie, mine might be R2000UPGP for Ultra Premium Glossy Photo for an R2000).  Select those and click ok.  They should now pop up in the list and may have a more thorough description of what paper it represents.  Choose the paper profile that best matches your paper.

Make sure in Lightroom you choose the appropriate paper type (Glossy or Matte) and I recommend setting sharpening to low or off.  For resolution, most Epson printers have a native engine of 720dpi.  I recommend using an even increment of this, either 180 or 360.

Now you should be ready to print.  Click the Print One or Print button and you should be set.

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Paul

the paper profiles arent there.im printing in gloss.had a look in the system 32 folder and nowhere does it say gloss so therefore cannot add them to the profile.even if there was there isnt an add button to locate them.

im still lost

and if i click on no colour management it definately comes out too dark i just tried again

Ok, here is what to do. Take a book, almost any book will do, if it handles color management, a basic one will do. Learn that and you can print what you want as you want. A brief explanation from here or there won't do if you don't know the basics. Semmone miäs hää on, Hietane.

everyone says you need to calibrate your monitor to get the printed photos to match the screen,how is that the case?what do you need to do after you have calibrated the monitor?can anyone run me through it with epson printer?

As Paul noted, ideally you should use the ICC profile for your printer/media combination.  I don't use an Epson printer, so I don't know what naming convention they use, nor do I know if they printer/media profiles get installed when you install the printer driver.  You should either go out to Epson's website and try to find the profiles there, or do a Google search for ICC profiles for your printer.  When you get the appropriate profile(s), right-click on the profile and select "Install Profile" and it will copy it to the appropriate location on your hard drive (Windows\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color).

Also note that your monitor luminance may be too high, which will give the appearance of the prints being too dark.  After you  get the printer profile sorted out, if the prints are still too dark, try reducing the brightness setting on your monitor.  Unfortunately, there is no "correct" monitor luminance level.  The optimum luminance depends upon your print viewing illumination.  The brighter your print viewing environment, the higher your monitor luminance should be.  Also, laptop displays are notorious for having large gamma changes as the viewing angle changes.  To further complicate matters, it's very difficult to ensure that the viewing angle stays the same, since it likely will be different every time you open the lid.

i do know the basics,im getting a near enough print as the screen by tweeking the settings in the epson software,i just cant see where the monitor calibration comes in

I meant to say in my previous post that I am using a Spyder 3 Pro with Spyder4Elite software to calibrate my two monitors, using Lightroom 4.3, and printing with an Epson R2000 and my prints come out just about spot on compared to what I see on my monitor.  But I am using printer paper profiles specific to the papers I am printing on.

You can't choose no color management and not use a printer profile within Lightroom and expect things to come out correctly.  You only choose no color management if you are relying on Lightroom to manage the colors.  Prints coming out too dark is typical if no color management is occurring.

As for where your printer profiles are located, they may be somewhere else.  But they should be on your PC.  You might have to do a search or dig through the Epson support site to find out where they are at.

What printer are you using?  Some models have premium printer profiles that are downloadable from Epson.

Below is a link to a PDF from Epson that describes step by step on how to setup color management for your printer and Photoshop:

http://files.support.epson.com/pdf/r2880_/r2880_mc.pdf#page=1&view=FitV&pagemode=none

Pages 14-19 are for Lightroom.

A worst case scenario is you can set Lightroom to Printer manages color then go into your printer settings, set the Mode to ICM, then click the Advance button.  In there you can set your input, intent, and printer profile.  The paper types might be listed there.  But this might be a little more trial and error.

You can also do a search on your PC for *.ICC to see if you can find the paper profiles or check your printer's installation CD for them.

If you are still finding your pictures too dark, then you may want to check with your Spyder application what the brightness of your screen is set to.  If it is too bright, you might be compensating your photo adjustments for that which will cause them to come out darker.  Of course, your screen brightness will vary depending on your work environment.  I have mine set for no higher than 130 lumens.

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Paul

Yes, you are very lost.

The reason you have to calibrate th monitor is well,,, because it comes wrongly calibrated out of the box.

I magine you spending a hour teaking an image till it is just perfect on the screen.

You think!

The screen is OFF by a certain amount for color and for luminance. So if you send me the file and I pop it on my pc if will not look so great on my calibrated monitor.

Imagine a fever themometer that is OFF one degree too high so when the temp is 98.6 it is really 99.6f and you thought it was correct because well, the factory says it is. How would you know if your baby really had a fever?

So now that your monitor is calibrated, you will have to print through your application such as Photo Shop, Lightroom or whatever editor you use, NEEDS to be allowed to control color.

By the way the profile the calibrator has created, remains in your Windows assigned position and will automatically load every time you start your computer. You DO NOT use it for printing EVER!!!

I will use PS as an example. When you hit print, you will see the choice to allow the printer to control color or to let Photo Shop control color. You will choose to allow PS to control color, you will see the ICC profiles listed. They will be often cryptically named, and not like you think they should be named. So you then click on the ICC for the printer and paper you intend to use.

Now you go into your printer's prefferences and choose Say Premium Glossy ( You would have had to choosen the corresponding profile which matches the paper you are printing on.

Then you can choose paper size, printing quality, and lastly, you tell the driver to NOT control color which is usullay located under the advanced tab where you then click on ICM and then on NONE.

On higher end Epsons, you will find that choice under MODE / CUSTOM and then OFF ( No Color Adjustment )

So you calibrate monitor, let your application control color using the correct matching ICC profile, turn OFF color management on the printer driver, choose specific paper and quality settings and print.

Because I know many who are beginning printers do not understand the relationship between ICC profiles and the printing process I create a three part video. Links are bellow.

In this video I calibrate the monitor and creat and use Printer / Paper / Ink profiles which I then print to one of my 15 printers, The R1900 through 3 different applications.

Hope it helps

Joe

1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScojQ7dWAFU

2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqda4F9YlLU

3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhmkI5EcPbI

The monitor calibration plays its part with what you see on the screen by ensuring what you see on the screen is what the program sees.

An example:

If a monitor isn't properly calibrated, what might appear as lime green to you the program might think is pine green.  Or neutral gray to you might actually be seen as a gray with a red color shift to the application.

This can cause issues when printing because the program isn't sending to the printer necessarily what you are seeing.  It is sending to the printer what the program sees.  And colors are interpreted as numbers for Red, Green, and Blue. So 255-255-255 is white, 255-0-0 is red, etc.  This is what the program sees.  So if something you are viewing might look to be 50-205-50 (lime green) it may really be 154-205-50 (yellow green).

The calibrator creates what is known as a look up table that interprets what your monitor is displaying to you and what those colors actually are.  So what you might see as 50-205-50 is also seen by the program as 50-205-50.  In turn, this will make colors more repeatable, images will be edited and appear correct on other displays, and print quality becomes more predictable.

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Paul

thanks joe im checking out your vids,my epson is an r300m about ten years old,whats icm? i dont have that option on my printer

An R300??? Boy that's a bit old.

OK here I have a couple of printer about that old. A R340 and R380 and they DO have the ICM option. See attached image. You have to choose the advance tab.

CLick on ICM radio button and then chose NONE. That's how you turn off Color Managment on an R349 which should be pretty much the same as your R300.

Joe (and others) excellent advice to OP.  You have given him/her what is needed to get the best print that most closely matches monitor view as possible.  BUT you did neglect to mention that even when doing everything right, many folks still perceive their prints to be darker than the monitor image.  Some of this has to do with the difference between the emitted light from the monitor vs. the reflected light from the print.  Some has to do with the difference between the additive color system of the monitor vs. the subtractive colors of the print.  Maybe some is the monitor set too bright.  We hear folks saying they need to set their monitors as low at 80 to get a good match to prints.  And then there is the question of viewing the prints in the same ambient lighting level and type as is used to view the monitor. I am pretty sure there are a number of folks who follow all the rules and still never feel they get their prints as bright as they should be relative to their monitor.

Having said all that I know you will agree that abandoning the appication control of color is not the solution.  One off adjustments to the printer driver just is not the way to go.  I suspect there is a learing curve for folks to apply a "standard" offest (brightening) in PP that gives them the print appearance they want even though it may always look a bit dull compared to the monitor.

Oh, and OP should be aware that different paper surfaces can increase the difference in appearance between print and monitor.  Glossy should be the least different and matte the most.

By the way no one has mentioned soft proofing.  Shouldn't the monitor image be closer in appearance to the final print in soft proofing mode than in standard color management mode? If OP is not using soft proofing, that may offer some improvement.

Robert

yes it is an old one,i defo dont have icm.where the icm is on your image i have an option that says no colour management.if i click this then the photos are dark,i just tried to install the disc that came with the printer and it wont install because of a configuration setting.im guessing my printer is too old.i just cant find the icc profile.the printer only works because when i plug it into the usb windows founds some drivers.

do you think this is my problem?its just too old?

Yes you are 100% correct. But I am assuming that when someone says that "Have a Calibrated Monitor" they aren't just talking about the color being correct, but also the luminosity.

Mine is also set at 80 by the way. It's amazing how bright the factory settings on monitor are to WOW you at the store.

All excellent points but first things first. People need to first learn how to just get a good basic print without ever touching the Driver Controls by using the correct ICC profile from the app and just turning off color in the driver. The fact that their prints often look a bit darker can be fixed by adjusting the monitor's luninance settings. The colors should be correct.

when i calibrated it, it was a bit darker then before.i just followed the on screen instructions.to be honest i think my printer is just too old but i can get quite good prints if i leave the colour management on

Yes, click on "no colour management"

When you turn off color management. You then chose the correct profile inside the printing modulew of your editing application. If you are not using an application that allows you to do that, then you really need to upgrade a bit if you wan to get into printing deeper.

Until you upgrade to a more moder printer, you might want to look on the Epson site and download the latest drivers for you printer. The R300 driver is available. Just pluging it in and haveing the OS find some generic printer driver is not going to cut it. As you have seen,you have no paper profiles installed right?

A more advanced printer much also be a good next step as well.

Watch the vids and you'll see that it is not at all that hard to get great prints.

Also remember that prints are viewed under reflected light and wht you are seeing on your monitor is backlit and so MUCH brighter. A print will NEVER match the screen 100%. You can however get pretty darn close.

Joe

With all respect, you do not know the basics of color management. You show that when you remark that tweaking the Epson settings means your problem is monitor calibration.

Montera2 is right. You need a basic conceptual understanding of color management. Study a book, some web tutorials, whatever works for you.

In the meantime, if tweaks of Epson settings get a near enough print, you can print to your satisfaction. It is not color management, but if it works, great.

another reason i bought the spyder is that if i sent my prints out to a lab,that they would come back as close to the monitor display as possible,i dont really do that much printing,probably because i have a crap printer.