NOT OK: R3000 second print (ABW) - lot of regular linear scratches... :(

Started Dec 7, 2012 | Discussions
NeroMetalliko
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NOT OK: R3000 second print (ABW) - lot of regular linear scratches... :(
Dec 7, 2012

Hello,

today I have tried another print using Hanhemuhle Photo Rag Pearl 320 and ABW mode.

I was curious regarding the gloss differential with a real picture and a different paper.

But something really weird happened: on the right side of the printed sheet a regular linear scratches pattern is easily noticeable (see photo below)

Scratches pattern detail - right paper side

I'm really upset, I think this is not something acceptable.

Please note that, to better understand the dimensions, the right white paper border width is near 4cm and:

- this is literally the second print of the printer (two nozzle check on plain paper aside)

- the paper was probably not scratched before the print because I have inspected it. Cannot be 100% sure obviously because I was not specifically looking for something like that, but I think I would have noticed. In addition I have checked again all the other sheets of the same pack and all is fine.

- I have tried to detect something similar in my previous print (the one with the gloss differential, as per my previous post) and I can confirm that there is absolutely NO evidence at all of something like that there. However, it was a different paper (Hanhemuhle Photo Rag Baryta 315), so different surface finish but similar thickness.

I will do other prints to see what is happening but I have to admit that I start to fear now...

Do you have experienced something like that?

Please, help me to understand what it could be, if it is so paper dependent and/or if could be something wrong in my brand new printer... or whatever...

Any opinion/suggestion is welcome and I will apreciate it a lot.

Many thanks in advance.

Ciao.

jtoolman
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Re: NOT OK: R3000 second print (ABW) - lot of regular linear scratches... :(
In reply to NeroMetalliko, Dec 8, 2012

It looks like the print head is scratching the right side since the scratches seem regularly spaced.

You might want to set your platen to a thicker setting. On some Epson drivers like the one for the R2000, there is a setting located inside the Utility tab and then in the Speed and Progress Tab called "Reduce Scraping" Click on that box, if you have it and it should reduce that problem.

Bob Petruska owns and operates an R3000 and it pretty much the bortad's R3000 expert. I am sure he can help you shed light on the problem.

Joe

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Petruska
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I'm not the resident R3000 expert, but.....
In reply to jtoolman, Dec 8, 2012



I would look at the paper thickness and platen gap settings in the print driver....

Bob P.



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NeroMetalliko
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Re: I'm not the resident R3000 expert, but.....
In reply to Petruska, Dec 8, 2012

Petruska wrote:



I would look at the paper thickness and platen gap settings in the print driver....

Bob P.



Hello,

Thanks for the answer, the thickness setting was already set to 0.5mm as per paper specs. All other settings were set as per manufacturer instructions.

I will try to widen the platen gap. In any case in the previous print the paper was of similar thickness (0.4) and the settings were 0.3mm (my fault), "standard" platen gap and no one single scratch is visible...

But I'm wondering: do you think that the printer heads can scratch the paper this way during printing without any single visible ink smear or print irregularity? (print was mono directional, high speed disabled).

I looks like something has pressed the paper in regular way on the right side marking the surface, but the printed image is fine.

In addition, curiously the scrathes are completely stopping before the end of the printed zone (look carefully on top right corner in the example photo and you will notice it). Same behaviour in the bottom right corner (not visible). On the left side there are no scratches at all.

Could it be something related to paper rollers and/or pizza wheel?

Thanks.

Ciao.

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NeroMetalliko
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UPDATE! Re: I'm not the resident R3000 expert, but.....
In reply to NeroMetalliko, Dec 8, 2012

NeroMetalliko wrote:

Petruska wrote:



I would look at the paper thickness and platen gap settings in the print driver....

Bob P.



Hello,

Thanks for the answer, the thickness setting was already set to 0.5mm as per paper specs. All other settings were set as per manufacturer instructions.

I will try to widen the platen gap. In any case in the previous print the paper was of similar thickness (0.4) and the settings were 0.3mm (my fault), "standard" platen gap and no one single scratch is visible...

But I'm wondering: do you think that the printer heads can scratch the paper this way during printing without any single visible ink smear or print irregularity? (print was mono directional, high speed disabled).

I looks like something has pressed the paper in regular way on the right side marking the surface, but the printed image is fine.

In addition, curiously the scrathes are completely stopping before the end of the printed zone (look carefully on top right corner in the example photo and you will notice it). Same behaviour in the bottom right corner (not visible). On the left side there are no scratches at all.

Could it be something related to paper rollers and/or pizza wheel?

Thanks.

Ciao.

Ok, things are running wild here...

I update you with some further informations.

I tried the color test image twice with Ilford Gold Fibre Silk 300 (0.315mm thickness), settings and icc as per Ilford site. Sheets inspected before printing.

- Thickness set to 0.3mm and "standard" platen gap, 1440x1440, no high speed, RESULT: I was clearly able to hear the printer heads (or something else) scratching on the paper during the initial part of the printing!!! The final print is scratched (not with the long and regular pattern visible above but in a more limited zone, and there is a little ink drop stain near the same zone...

- Thickness set to 0.4mm and "wide" platen gap, 5760x1440, no high speed, RESULT: no audible scratching during printing. No visible scratches or stains in the printed image.

So it seems definitely something related to paper type and/or printer heads settings, but now my big question is:

Is this normal or I have to consider my printer faulty?

Any opinion/suggestion is welcome.

Thanks in advance,

Ciao.

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jtoolman
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Re: UPDATE! Re: I'm not the resident R3000 expert, but.....
In reply to NeroMetalliko, Dec 8, 2012

You definitely should not be expereincing head strikes on any part of your print. Unless something is causing that portion of the sheet of paper to rise so that the head COULD strike it.

I recently had a sudden problem with my R2000. Simmilar to yours except much worse. I was getting horrible head to paer scratches and gougings. After a couple of agonizing nights, I took a small LED torch and took a close look at the front of the printer, where the prints emerge and found a little piece of broken plastic that should, for all intents and purposes, not be there. With some needle nose plyers and a flat bladed screw driver, I was able to remove it. Where this came from, I have no clue but the problem immediately dissappeared. Whatever that was, it was pushing the right edge of the paper up against the head as it began to exit out the front.

Look for anything that might be stuck anywhere along the paper path in the area that the problem manifests itself.

Good luck and let us know of any progress.

Joe

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GMack
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Re: NOT OK: R3000 second print (ABW) - lot of regular linear scratches... :(
In reply to NeroMetalliko, Dec 8, 2012

I had some roller lines in a watercolor paper a long time ago.

For fun, I put it across the shower/bath curtain bar and took a hot shower (Separate shower stall from bath curtain area in the same room.) since I steam the place up pretty good as is.  I guess the steam/humidity in the room swelled the paper and the lines disappeared and print looked okay for the process.  Might try a steam iron too from the back side just using the blast of steam onto the paper maybe an inch away since it is already messed up and see if it swells the paper back into shape.

Mack

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jtoolman
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Re: NOT OK: R3000 second print (ABW) - lot of regular linear scratches... :(
In reply to GMack, Dec 8, 2012

The OP has scratches through the Printed surface not lines.

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NeroMetalliko
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Re: UPDATE! Re: I'm not the resident R3000 expert, but.....
In reply to jtoolman, Dec 8, 2012

jtoolman wrote:

You definitely should not be expereincing head strikes on any part of your print. Unless something is causing that portion of the sheet of paper to rise so that the head COULD strike it.

I recently had a sudden problem with my R2000. Simmilar to yours except much worse. I was getting horrible head to paer scratches and gougings. After a couple of agonizing nights, I took a small LED torch and took a close look at the front of the printer, where the prints emerge and found a little piece of broken plastic that should, for all intents and purposes, not be there. With some needle nose plyers and a flat bladed screw driver, I was able to remove it. Where this came from, I have no clue but the problem immediately dissappeared. Whatever that was, it was pushing the right edge of the paper up against the head as it began to exit out the front.

Look for anything that might be stuck anywhere along the paper path in the area that the problem manifests itself.

Good luck and let us know of any progress.

Joe

Hello,

may thanks for your advice, I have looked carefully inside the tray with a LED torch and I have noticed nothing unusual for what I can guess...

The situation is that in a three day period of very limited usage and very few prints I have collected the following:

- The Fine art front tray, when pushed, has always the tendence to stuck in the middle of their way and I have to pull it out by hands 75% of the times to let it fully extend out.

- The Fine art paper insertion sometimes is hanging somewhere inside and I have to try some repeated little re-adjustment in order to be able to succesfully fully insert the paper and let the printer to load it.

- Another thing I have noticed is that printing on plain paper at standard setting with Photo Black produces unacceptable grays instead of blacks (for example in the windows printer test page). It is normal? It's mandatory to print with Matte Black to get decent black text/graphic on plain paper?

- Still have to try Matte Black prints at all.

- Finally, it's true that with the modified settings I was able to get a perfect print (other test will follow) but the real big headache for me is wheter or not I should consider normal/acceptable the fact that I have to carefully play with the deep drivers settings (thickness and platen gap) to avoid this kind of behaviour. This is something really disconcerning...

So, using your words in this moment I'm literally agonizing... My problem is to understand wheter I should returrn the printer as defective or not (considering that returning the printer for this kind of issues is a big pain, a lot of unpleasant troublesome discussions and big time loss for sure in my experience).

Please, let me know your opinion, many thanks for the support in advance.

Ciao.

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NeroMetalliko
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Re: NOT OK: R3000 second print (ABW) - lot of regular linear scratches... :(
In reply to jtoolman, Dec 8, 2012

jtoolman wrote:

The OP has scratches through the Printed surface not lines.

In the first print (Pearl - see photo in first post) I got a lot of regular linear scratches (so we can say lines maybe too) in the printed and not printed area. It seems that the scratches are similar to something regularly pressing/touching along the right side in the central part of the sheet (and not covering all the paper sheet length).

With Ilford paper I got a more focused linear scratch damaging the surface and a ink stain in a sinlge zone, disappeared with the modified drivers settings.

In any case I cannot consider acceptable or normal a workflow including actions like vapor iron out the print or whatever...

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Hugowolf
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Re: UPDATE! Re: I'm not the resident R3000 expert, but.....
In reply to NeroMetalliko, Dec 8, 2012

NeroMetalliko wrote:

jtoolman wrote:

You definitely should not be expereincing head strikes on any part of your print. Unless something is causing that portion of the sheet of paper to rise so that the head COULD strike it.

I recently had a sudden problem with my R2000. Simmilar to yours except much worse. I was getting horrible head to paer scratches and gougings. After a couple of agonizing nights, I took a small LED torch and took a close look at the front of the printer, where the prints emerge and found a little piece of broken plastic that should, for all intents and purposes, not be there. With some needle nose plyers and a flat bladed screw driver, I was able to remove it. Where this came from, I have no clue but the problem immediately dissappeared. Whatever that was, it was pushing the right edge of the paper up against the head as it began to exit out the front.

Look for anything that might be stuck anywhere along the paper path in the area that the problem manifests itself.

- The Fine art front tray, when pushed, has always the tendence to stuck in the middle of their way and I have to pull it out by hands 75% of the times to let it fully extend out.

- The Fine art paper insertion sometimes is hanging somewhere inside and I have to try some repeated little re-adjustment in order to be able to succesfully fully insert the paper and let the printer to load it.

This isn't unusual; you will probably get a much greater acceptance rate as you become more practiced.

- Another thing I have noticed is that printing on plain paper at standard setting with Photo Black produces unacceptable grays instead of blacks (for example in the windows printer test page). It is normal? It's mandatory to print with Matte Black to get decent black text/graphic on plain paper?

Yes, you need matte black to get real black on plain or any matte papers.

- Still have to try Matte Black prints at all.

- Finally, it's true that with the modified settings I was able to get a perfect print (other test will follow) but the real big headache for me is wheter or not I should consider normal/acceptable the fact that I have to carefully play with the deep drivers settings (thickness and platen gap) to avoid this kind of behaviour. This is something really disconcerning...

Once you have made your paper purchase choices, you can save your custom settings for each paper. It really shouldn't be a problem.

Brian A

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NeroMetalliko
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Re: UPDATE! Re: I'm not the resident R3000 expert, but.....
In reply to Hugowolf, Dec 8, 2012

Hugowolf wrote:

NeroMetalliko wrote:

jtoolman wrote:

You definitely should not be expereincing head strikes on any part of your print. Unless something is causing that portion of the sheet of paper to rise so that the head COULD strike it.

I recently had a sudden problem with my R2000. Simmilar to yours except much worse. I was getting horrible head to paer scratches and gougings. After a couple of agonizing nights, I took a small LED torch and took a close look at the front of the printer, where the prints emerge and found a little piece of broken plastic that should, for all intents and purposes, not be there. With some needle nose plyers and a flat bladed screw driver, I was able to remove it. Where this came from, I have no clue but the problem immediately dissappeared. Whatever that was, it was pushing the right edge of the paper up against the head as it began to exit out the front.

Look for anything that might be stuck anywhere along the paper path in the area that the problem manifests itself.

- The Fine art front tray, when pushed, has always the tendence to stuck in the middle of their way and I have to pull it out by hands 75% of the times to let it fully extend out.

- The Fine art paper insertion sometimes is hanging somewhere inside and I have to try some repeated little re-adjustment in order to be able to succesfully fully insert the paper and let the printer to load it.

This isn't unusual; you will probably get a much greater acceptance rate as you become more practiced.

Ok, thanks, my fear is to slightly damage the page borders with multiple attempts

- Another thing I have noticed is that printing on plain paper at standard setting with Photo Black produces unacceptable grays instead of blacks (for example in the windows printer test page). It is normal? It's mandatory to print with Matte Black to get decent black text/graphic on plain paper?

Yes, you need matte black to get real black on plain or any matte papers.

Ok, I will try.

- Still have to try Matte Black prints at all.

- Finally, it's true that with the modified settings I was able to get a perfect print (other test will follow) but the real big headache for me is wheter or not I should consider normal/acceptable the fact that I have to carefully play with the deep drivers settings (thickness and platen gap) to avoid this kind of behaviour. This is something really disconcerning...

Once you have made your paper purchase choices, you can save your custom settings for each paper. It really shouldn't be a problem.

Brian A

Yes, I understand, but what I don't know yet is wheter and/or how much there is a negative impact on printed image quality by setting higher thickness than needed and/or wide platen gap?

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Petruska
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One question....
In reply to NeroMetalliko, Dec 8, 2012

Does your paper lay flat, or does it bow upward causing the head to strick it?

Also let's go back to your original tray issue.  As the tray comes out it lowers the paper feed floor, if your tray is not working correctly and you don't see that drop taking place, then this could also be the cause of the paper being too close to the print head.

One other question, why don't you just use the rear paper feed?  I print on all types of papers with the majority of them thick and I have yet to use the front tray except for occasional DVD printing.

Bob P.

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NeroMetalliko
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UPDATE2 Re: One question....
In reply to Petruska, Dec 8, 2012

Petruska wrote:

Does your paper lay flat, or does it bow upward causing the head to strick it?

Ok, the Pearl Paper of my first post is slightly carved, I have noticed it this morning and I have put the paper under big books on a flat surface for all the day. Now I have tried another print, unlucky the paper is still carved and difficult to load. I have set thickness to 0.6 (instead of 0.5) and "wide" platen gap.

RESULTS: no head strike noises during print and no noticeable scratches on printed image surface. I don't know if the decisive setting is the thickness value or the platen gap, and I still don't know the negative consequences of these settings on final image print in any case.

Also let's go back to your original tray issue. As the tray comes out it lowers the paper feed floor, if your tray is not working correctly and you don't see that drop taking place, then this could also be the cause of the paper being too close to the print head.

It seems to me that when I fully extend the tray all is fine...

One other question, why don't you just use the rear paper feed? I print on all types of papers with the majority of them thick and I have yet to use the front tray except for occasional DVD printing.

Bob P.

Wow, I don't have a good answer here!

I simply "blindly" followed the instructions to use the front manual tray (one sheet at once) for Fine Art media of thickness greater than 0.3mm as specified in the user guide. Are you saying that you normally put the 0.5mm Fine Art paper sheet in the normal rear sheet feeder without issues?

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Petruska
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On paper thickness
In reply to NeroMetalliko, Dec 8, 2012

I print a lot with Epson Exhibition Fiber that's 13 mils (0.5mm) thick using the rear feed tray without any issues.  You can only feed one at a time, but that's the same as if you use the front tray.

Now let's look at the the advantage of using the rear tray.  You are stating that your paper has a bow (curve) in it.  When you use the front feed tray the bow will be there as you feed the paper and the head can strike it.  When you use the rear tray the forced feeding of the paper at a major curve from almost vertical to horizontal reduces/eliminates the bow in the paper.

We have been where you are and we just experimented to see what happens and works the best.  Try different papers, different settings, rear feeding, front feeding, etc.

Bob P.

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NeroMetalliko
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Re: On paper thickness
In reply to Petruska, Dec 8, 2012

Petruska wrote:

I print a lot with Epson Exhibition Fiber that's 13 mils (0.5mm) thick using the rear feed tray without any issues. You can only feed one at a time, but that's the same as if you use the front tray.

Now let's look at the the advantage of using the rear tray. You are stating that your paper has a bow (curve) in it. When you use the front feed tray the bow will be there as you feed the paper and the head can strike it. When you use the rear tray the forced feeding of the paper at a major curve from almost vertical to horizontal reduces/eliminates the bow in the paper.

We have been where you are and we just experimented to see what happens and works the best. Try different papers, different settings, rear feeding, front feeding, etc.

Bob P.

Hello,

many thanks for sharing your experience, it is really appreciated.

I will try the rear feed, if you use it with EEF (which is a delicate surface paper as per what I know) without problems then it should definitely work.

Now my question is: if the rear tray is OK for Fine Art paper why Epson recommed the front tray in the manuals (and this is confirmed in the online reviews I have seen too)?

Ciao

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Petruska
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Re: On paper thickness
In reply to NeroMetalliko, Dec 8, 2012

Now my question is: if the rear tray is OK for Fine Art paper why Epson recommed the front tray in the manuals (and this is confirmed in the online reviews I have seen too)?

Ciao

The front single sheet path is designated for fine art papers and poster board. Basically, Epson is suggesting that you use this paper path for media over 15 mil thick.  I look at it for thick poster board printing and CD's.  The front feeder is lousy for feeding sheet canvas.

Bob P.

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NeroMetalliko
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UPDATE3+RESUME! things are running wild... :(
In reply to NeroMetalliko, Dec 8, 2012

NeroMetalliko wrote:

Petruska wrote:

Does your paper lay flat, or does it bow upward causing the head to strick it?

Ok, the Pearl Paper of my first post is slightly carved, I have noticed it this morning and I have put the paper under big books on a flat surface for all the day. Now I have tried another print, unlucky the paper is still carved and difficult to load. I have set thickness to 0.6 (instead of 0.5) and "wide" platen gap.

RESULTS: no head strike noises during print and no noticeable scratches on printed image surface. I don't know if the decisive setting is the thickness value or the platen gap, and I still don't know the negative consequences of these settings on final image print in any case.

Weird...

After an initial satisfaction regarding the heads strikes with these settings (0.6mm+wide), looking closer to the picture (B&W) I have noted a generalized evident blur in the print... even the picture edges (the zone between the white paper and the painted area) are blurred and not sharp...

I have then performed another color print with this paper and these same settings using the color test image of the gloss differential post and there was no heads strikes but a nightmare of blurred color smudges... Total crap!

After that I have tried another color test with a different paper (Harman Gloss Art Fibre Warmtone 300 - 0.44mm thick). I had a lot of troubles loading the paper (still using front tray for the moment). With thickness set to 0.4 and "standard" platen gap I have aborted the print immediately because I clearly heard the heads striking the paper.

I Loaded another sheet of the same paper and printing with thickness 0.5 + "wide" platen gap I still heard something slightly brushing in the first part of the print but I left the print finish. RESULTS: no noticeable strikes and no apparent/evident color blur. One small particle was present on the surface causing a little spot when blowed away with a blower.

So, at the moment (not taking in account the gloss differential here) the overall situation is not looking good and the sequence can be resumed in this way:

1 - HM Photo Rag Baryta (0.39mm) - first try COLOR @5760 0.3mm + std platen gap: GOOD (no strikes, no smear)

2 - HM Photo Rag Pearl (0.48mm) - first try ABW @5760 0.5mm + std platen gap: BAD (big strikes pattern, but no smear in the picture)

3 - ILF Gold Fibre Silk (0.315mm) - first try COLOR @1440 0.3mm + std platen gap: BAD (strike and ink stain, but no smear in the picture)

4 - ILF Gold Fibre Silk (0.315mm) - second try COLOR @5760 0.4mm + "wide" platen gap: GOOD (no strikes, no smear)

5 - HM Photo Rag Pearl (0.48mm) - second try ABW @5760 0.6mm + "wide" platen gap: BAD (no strikes pattern, but smear in the picture)

6 - HM Photo Rag Pearl (0.48mm) - third try COLOR @5760 0.6mm + "wide" platen gap: BAD (no strikes pattern, but big color smear in the picture)

7 - Harman Gloss Art Fibre Warmtone (0.44mm) - first try COLOR @1440 0.4mm + std platen gap: BAD (print aborted due to evident strikes noise)

8 - Harman Gloss Art Fibre Warmtone (0.44mm) - second try COLOR @1440 0.5mm + "wide" platen gap: MEDIUM/BAD (some strikes noise, but no evident strikes and no smear in the printed picture, one floating particle still caused a spot)

I'm disappointed, the results are really mixed and I cannot easily figure out a useful trend: several time/money spent and only 2 of 8 total prints are good. 4 different Papers used and no way to get good results from 2 of these 4 at the moment. Frankly I fear to repeat the test on the first good one...

Next step should be take a break and switch ink to try at least one matte print, but honestly, I don't know if what I'm experiencing could be still classified as "normal" and/or expected.

Please, let me know your opinion, I'm not so happy in this moment...

Ciao.

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Petruska
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What' wrong with trying the top feeder?
In reply to NeroMetalliko, Dec 8, 2012

You seem very reluctant to do so....

Again the front feeder is made basically for very thick paper/photo board.

I have yet to have any paper be scrapped by the print head when using the top feeder.

Bob P.

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NeroMetalliko
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Re: What' wrong with trying the top feeder?
In reply to Petruska, Dec 8, 2012

Petruska wrote:

You seem very reluctant to do so....

Again the front feeder is made basically for very thick paper/photo board.

I have yet to have any paper be scrapped by the print head when using the top feeder.

Bob P.

Many thanks for your support, it is really appreciated, and please, be patient with me, I have very little experience and I'm in troubles to figure out if I have to return this printer or not. I have still not tried yet the rear tray to keep consistency with the previous results and I want to avoid to potentially add an additional variable to the matrix, things are still very complicated at the moment...

I will try it for sure, but I don't think it's something that will change the results I'm seeing, It's only a different (probably more easy) way to load the paper, or not? Once it is correctly loaded (one way or another) the print results are expected to be the same. I'm missing something?

Do you have some thought regarding the listed results sequence?

Thanks again, Ciao.

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