Nikon 14-24 refresh?

Started Nov 29, 2012 | Discussions
just Tony
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Use the Nano coating on additional elements?
In reply to john barlow, Dec 5, 2012

"Lens construction

14 elements in 11 groups (with 2 ED glass elements, 3 aspherical lenses and one Nano Crystal Coat)"

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PatrickP
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Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?
In reply to anotherMike, Dec 6, 2012

Hi Mike,

I am not NPS but I got the same survey for 24-70 f/2.8 as well.

I think we came across the Nikon 16-35 f/2.8 VR patent a while ago (reported by NR) and now that the "next generation VR" on the 70-200/4 VR has seen the light I think the intention of this new 16-35 is clearer. Now I think it might have a good chance of being released.

If this lens can shoot 1/6s sharp handheld regardless of FL, there will be an audience for the new 16-35, provided the 17-35 era optics is improved from technologies pioneered by 14-24 , there's enough of a differentiation between 14-24, 16-35/2.8, 16-35/4. If Nikon can keep the distortion at 16mm under control and improve the resolution on the wide end, It might well become the preferred the lens among the three.

Indeed with the new VR we might see a new trinity released over the next few years: 16-35/2.8 VR , 24-70/2.8 VR, and 70-200/2.8 VR (fix the breathing).

anotherMike wrote:

Yea, I'm with you. IF things work out fund wise, I'm actually looking at the Zeiss 21/2.8 myself as a replacement, or adjunct for the 14-24 in the 20mm range. I'm not sure whether I'll keep the 14-24 or not, given it's extremely rare for me to shoot at 15mm, where I think the 14-24 is spectacular. (The problem is I really want to take a look at the 135/2 apo sonnar, and getting both in one year may not be possible). I wasn't a Zeiss fan with the lower resolution bodies (and boy, I took a lot of heat in the forums for saying that), but after shooting with the 21 on a higher rez body a few weeks ago, I have a different view now. But if Nikon were to do a 20 that was amazing, I'd have to take a very long look.

BTW, not to nitpick, but the 17-35 was designed in 1999 IIRC; the first wide zoom from Nikon with some concepts of designing for digital bodies actually. Nice lens in it's day, but times have moved on and there are things a bit better now, particularly at the earlier apertures where the 17-35 was never that great.

-m

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John M Roberts
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Re: "Zooms impair creativity"... explain opinion please
In reply to ponderosabob, Dec 6, 2012

ponderosabob wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

My recommendation to them would be to redesign the 14mm f2.8 and 20mm f2.8 in MF editions with real DOF scales on them and infinity lock, apply nano to reduce flare further (it's miles better that the stupid zoom anyway)

You've got to be kidding! The 14 is junk!


Zooms are way overrated, and overused, and impair creativity and skill. (my opinion),

Your credibility slipped a fair amount in my view after reading that assertion. Most of my 40 plus years involved primes with MF and LF. Once Canon offered their 24-35 and 80-200 L's my 35mm format primes sat though I did little shooting in that format. Now that DSLR's have improved tremendously quality can be had with zooms to compete with some MF film primes.

My transition into digital came late, first a Rebel but more seriously a D700 and with that I picked up the trio zooms and one prime, Sigma 150 macro. Zooms have benefited my creative potential in very convenient ways. They provide me greater room for composition and with spontaneity allowing me to catch brief moments of favored light. They offer the ability of quick decisions with a handful of FL's held in one hand.

So how on earth do you perceive that zooms hinder creativity?

However, they do have their place.

Focus plane plays a big part in performance that is not reflected in the mainstream lens tests and MTF's. Shoot it yourself. There are many fine lenses that are prematurely dismissed offhand, that just might be the gem you are looking for.

Discover the intangibles!

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LarryK
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Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?
In reply to john barlow, Dec 6, 2012

There are a lot of things Nikon could be doing that would be more productive than trying to improve the 14-24

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Zolty
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Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?
In reply to LarryK, Dec 6, 2012

LarryK wrote:

There are a lot of things Nikon could be doing that would be more productive than trying to improve the 14-24

Improve QC? 

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ponderosabob
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Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?
In reply to Theodoros Fotometria, Dec 7, 2012

Theodoros Fotometria wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Bob, I'm glad you and Teddy love your 14, but it's not sharp in the corners, especially compared to the 14-24, or the Zeiss or the Samyang. As a matter of fact, it's fuzzy and washed out. Don't even come back with any of that "my copy" b.s., either. Everyone knows this, which is why it's considered a dud in the Nikon lineup. As far as "impairing creativity," that's just dumb, sorry.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=628&Camera=614&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=3&LensComp=615&CameraComp=614&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=3

I wish you would stop being provocative and appear dumb for that matter! You better talk from your own experience instead of referring to "tests" all the time about lenses you've never had enough experience of yourself! Your 10-24 is worst than 12-24 in everything (still an OK lens) and the 14mm has values that no other lens but the Zeiss 15mm shares (main one being its superb presentation). True photographers, don't require sharp corners wide open in UWs nor they pixel peep for sharpness, ...in fact sharpness isn't the first they consider when buying a lens. Nor they use AF with their WAs or mistake field curvature with sharpness... they adapt their DOF accordingly and use it to their benefit.... It's just the difference between photographers and funboys!

Neither tests mean much to them for that matter!

Theodoros
http://www.fotometria.gr
http://www.fotometriawedding.gr

Amen -

Well said

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ponderosabob
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Re: "Zooms impair creativity"... explain opinion please
In reply to John M Roberts, Dec 7, 2012

John M Roberts wrote:


Zooms are way overrated, and overused, and impair creativity and skill. (my opinion),

Your credibility slipped a fair amount in my view after reading that assertion. Most of my 40 plus years involved primes with MF and LF. Once Canon offered their 24-35 and 80-200 L's my 35mm format primes sat though I did little shooting in that format. Now that DSLR's have improved tremendously quality can be had with zooms to compete with some MF film primes.

My transition into digital came late, first a Rebel but more seriously a D700 and with that I picked up the trio zooms and one prime, Sigma 150 macro. Zooms have benefited my creative potential in very convenient ways. They provide me greater room for composition and with spontaneity allowing me to catch brief moments of favored light. They offer the ability of quick decisions with a handful of FL's held in one hand.

So how on earth do you perceive that zooms hinder creativity?

John,

I was strictly stating that as a personal opinion as it applies to my own photography. Everyone is an individual, and applies their visions differently. If zooms have enhanced your spontaneity and ability to get certain shots you may have otherwise missed, then great for you.

Personally I don't begrudge anyone the use of zooms, as I have several, but I rarely use them. I do believe they are a compromise, however small.

I almost always shoot aperture priority, and lean toward the fast glass for it's subject isolation and dimensional effect (portraiture). Distinct advantage to the primes.

Landscapes, of course, are different, and have other considerations.

Best to you..

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John M Roberts
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Re: "Zooms impair creativity"... explain opinion please
In reply to ponderosabob, Dec 7, 2012

ponderosabob wrote:

So how on earth do you perceive that zooms hinder creativity?

John,

I was strictly stating that as a personal opinion as it applies to my own photography. Everyone is an individual, and applies their visions differently. If zooms have enhanced your spontaneity and ability to get certain shots you may have otherwise missed, then great for you.

Personally I don't begrudge anyone the use of zooms, as I have several, but I rarely use them. I do believe they are a compromise, however small.

I almost always shoot aperture priority, and lean toward the fast glass for it's subject isolation and dimensional effect (portraiture). Distinct advantage to the primes.

Landscapes, of course, are different, and have other considerations.

Best to you..

Understood. You were coming from a more personal preference. Your statement though didn't make that clear for me. Your subject matter of preference, to which isolating the subject is needed,  is hindered by many zooms limit in f stop. Thanks for the clarification.

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Theodoros Fotometria
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Re: "Zooms impair creativity"... explain opinion please
In reply to John M Roberts, Dec 8, 2012

John M Roberts wrote:

ponderosabob wrote:

So how on earth do you perceive that zooms hinder creativity?

John,

I was strictly stating that as a personal opinion as it applies to my own photography. Everyone is an individual, and applies their visions differently. If zooms have enhanced your spontaneity and ability to get certain shots you may have otherwise missed, then great for you.

Personally I don't begrudge anyone the use of zooms, as I have several, but I rarely use them. I do believe they are a compromise, however small.

I almost always shoot aperture priority, and lean toward the fast glass for it's subject isolation and dimensional effect (portraiture). Distinct advantage to the primes.

Landscapes, of course, are different, and have other considerations.

Best to you..

Understood. You were coming from a more personal preference. Your statement though didn't make that clear for me. Your subject matter of preference, to which isolating the subject is needed, is hindered by many zooms limit in f stop. Thanks for the clarification.

Same here John... I do own 17-35, 24-70, 35-70 f2.8 & 70-200vrii, but I also own 16mmf/e AI-s. 14mmD, 24mm f2.8 AI-S, 28mm f2.8 AI-S, 35mm f2.8 P/C, 50mm f1.4G, 85mm f1.8D, 105microVR, 180 f2.8D & 300f4 AF-S + TC14EII, tc20eiii + Kenco1.4x pro 300 DGX... The only zoom I use for creative photography (sometimes) is the 17-35... the rest are only for weddings, and theater or other events. I can't shoot portraits with the VRii, I would come up with half the shots! Nor I can stand 24-70'S presentation in WA... the bulk comes into the equation too, but the most important thing to me is that when I create, I do it in MF and I find the zooms less capable for that, besides I mostly do WA and there I work in MF with DOF... Also the 2 standard zooms are bad with flare & the handling of the VRii is far worst than all the 85, 105 & 180... so I use it when VR comes in the equation and zoom is essential (call me weddings)...  The 14-24 I sold partly because of flare, but Its presentation (which is the same as a 24 only wider) didn't satisfy me... the 14 prime stretches corners out like the Zeiss does... for me UWA should be that way, add bulk and usability into the equation and there you are...

Theodoros
http://www.fotometria.gr
http://www.fotometriawedding.gr

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John M Roberts
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Re: "Zooms impair creativity"... explain opinion please
In reply to Theodoros Fotometria, Dec 8, 2012

Theodoros Fotometria wrote:

Same here John... I do own 17-35, 24-70, 35-70 f2.8 & 70-200vrii, but I also own 16mmf/e AI-s. 14mmD, 24mm f2.8 AI-S, 28mm f2.8 AI-S, 35mm f2.8 P/C, 50mm f1.4G, 85mm f1.8D, 105microVR, 180 f2.8D & 300f4 AF-S + TC14EII, tc20eiii + Kenco1.4x pro 300 DGX... The only zoom I use for creative photography (sometimes) is the 17-35... the rest are only for weddings, and theater or other events. I can't shoot portraits with the VRii, I would come up with half the shots! Nor I can stand 24-70'S presentation in WA... the bulk comes into the equation too, but the most important thing to me is that when I create, I do it in MF and I find the zooms less capable for that, besides I mostly do WA and there I work in MF with DOF... Also the 2 standard zooms are bad with flare & the handling of the VRii is far worst than all the 85, 105 & 180... so I use it when VR comes in the equation and zoom is essential (call me weddings)... The 14-24 I sold partly because of flare, but Its presentation (which is the same as a 24 only wider) didn't satisfy me... the 14 prime stretches corners out like the Zeiss does... for me UWA should be that way, add bulk and usability into the equation and there you are...

Theodoros
http://www.fotometria.gr
http://www.fotometriawedding.gr

I imagine I wil venture more into primes as I upgrade. Canon changed their mount so I had let go of all but my FD 400 prime which is still around because I'm just not in the mood to selling it yet.

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fft81
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Re: "Zooms impair creativity"... explain opinion please
In reply to John M Roberts, Dec 8, 2012

John M Roberts wrote:

ponderosabob wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

My recommendation to them would be to redesign the 14mm f2.8 and 20mm f2.8 in MF editions with real DOF scales on them and infinity lock, apply nano to reduce flare further (it's miles better that the stupid zoom anyway)

You've got to be kidding! The 14 is junk!


Zooms are way overrated, and overused, and impair creativity and skill. (my opinion),

Your credibility slipped a fair amount in my view after reading that assertion. Most of my 40 plus years involved primes with MF and LF. Once Canon offered their 24-35 and 80-200 L's my 35mm format primes sat though I did little shooting in that format. Now that DSLR's have improved tremendously quality can be had with zooms to compete with some MF film primes.

My transition into digital came late, first a Rebel but more seriously a D700 and with that I picked up the trio zooms and one prime, Sigma 150 macro. Zooms have benefited my creative potential in very convenient ways. They provide me greater room for composition and with spontaneity allowing me to catch brief moments of favored light. They offer the ability of quick decisions with a handful of FL's held in one hand.

So how on earth do you perceive that zooms hinder creativity?

However, they do have their place.

Focus plane plays a big part in performance that is not reflected in the mainstream lens tests and MTF's. Shoot it yourself. There are many fine lenses that are prematurely dismissed offhand, that just might be the gem you are looking for.

Discover the intangibles!

I am by no means a good photographer. At best, I am the: "Uncle Bob with the DSLR". But i feel more creative with a 50mm MF lens on my d800 than with any one of the trinity zooms on it. To me, it feels like the zoom feature just gets in the way; it distracts me from looking closer at the composition.

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Leonard Migliore
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The hair shirt theory
In reply to fft81, Dec 9, 2012

fft81 wrote:

I am by no means a good photographer. At best, I am the: "Uncle Bob with the DSLR". But i feel more creative with a 50mm MF lens on my d800 than with any one of the trinity zooms on it. To me, it feels like the zoom feature just gets in the way; it distracts me from looking closer at the composition.

You feel more creative by being limited; I don't quite feel the same way but I do often go out with just a normal prime and work on composition. I find this quite instructive and valuable, but the actual photos I get from this exercise are generally unspectacular. I do a lot better with zooms because I can use the field of view I want from the location I want to shot; it's much easier to match my visualization of a shot.

So I look at shooting with primes as an exercise in self-mortification, similar to wearing a hair shirt.

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Leonard Migliore

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anotherMike
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Re: The hair shirt theory
In reply to Leonard Migliore, Dec 9, 2012

Why does every post end up in a primes vs zooms argument? Silly. Lenses are tools. That's all. So much emotional BS attached to lenses - just tools. Learn to use them, all of them, and understand when and why and where they might fit the task at hand. Geeez.

The 14-24 is popular, and rightfully so, because it's BETTER than most of the older Nikon AFD primes, including the 14, 18, 20, and 24, and that's all there is to that. I've owned or shot about all of those, and certainly wouldn't have dropped 1900 bucks on the heavy wide zoom with the double D sized front element if it wasn't - I don't buy lenses to be trendy, or to cherish them like long lost soul-mates. Nikon themselves considers the 14-24 to be optically superior to the older lenses - and frankly, I don't think that sounds too unreasonable considering how long ago some of those film era primes were designed. Nikon went all-in on the aspherical element manufacturing in order to bring us the 14-24, and while it's not perfect, it sure impressed the hell out of the vast, vast, vast majority of photographers (and testers) who consider it superior to those 15+ year old primes. Only now, what, 4-5 years after its release, do we consider a small handful of lenses that might do a better job in spots (the Zeiss 21 and 25, and the Nikon 24/1.4G, and that's about it). The 14-24 Nikon will go down in history as a legendary lens design - whether a few loud posters here in dpreview think it's a good lens or not. The Nikon 14, 18, 20, 24 AFD most absolutely and certainly will not.

Anyway, this post isn't aimed at Leonard M here at all, just thought this was a place to stick another response in. Closer we get to 150, the sooner all the BS in this thread will cease

-m

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ponderosabob
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Re: The hair shirt theory
In reply to anotherMike, Dec 9, 2012

anotherMike wrote:

Why does every post end up in a primes vs zooms argument? Silly.

You're right. It's silly, and then you continue on and perpetuate what you just denounced.

I don't agree with your assessment of the 14-24 due to many detriments such as size, flare, vulnerability, where other lenses have advantages, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Don't get me wrong - it's a fine lens, just not my bag.

FWIW my current lenses I own and frequently rotate through are;

(and there is not a single dog among them) - again, you are entitled to your opinion. It's just that my opinion is based on a little more than just hearsay or limited exposure.

D3
F3HP
F4s
F5
F100
AF DX Fisheye-Nikkor 10.5mm 
f/2.8G ED
AF-Nikkor 14mm f/2.8D ED
AF Fisheye-Nikkor 16mm f/2.8D
AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D ED
AF-Nikkor 18mm f/2.8D
Zeiss Distagon T* 18mm f/3.5 ZF
AI-S Nikkor 20mm f/2.8
AF Zoom-Nikkor 20-35mm f/2.8D
Zeiss Distagon T* 21mm f/2.8 ZF.2
AI-S Nikkor 24mm f/2.8
Zeiss Distagon T* 25mm f/2.8 ZF.2
AI-S Nikkor 28mm f/2
AI-S Nikkor 28mm f/2.8
AI-S Nikkor 35mm f/1.4
AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G
AI-S Nikkor 35mm f/2
AF-Nikkor 35mm f/2D
Zeiss Distagon T* 35mm f/2 ZF.2
AF Zoom-Nikkor 35-70mm f/2.8D
AI-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.2
AF-Nikkor 50mm f/1.4D
AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G
AI-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 long nose
AF Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8D
AF-S Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8G ED
AF-Nikkor 80-200mm f/2.8D ED
AF-Nikkor 85mm f/1.4D
Zeiss Makro-Planar 100mm f/2 ZF.2
AI-S Nikkor 105mm f/1.8
AF DC-Nikkor 105mm f/2D
AI Nikkor 105mm f/2.5
AI-S Nikkor 105mm f/2.5
AF DC-Nikkor 135mm f/2
AI-S Nikkor 135mm f/2
AI-S Nikkor 180mm f/2.8 ED
AI-S Nikkor 200mm f/2 IF ED
AF Micro-Nikkor 200mm f/4D IF ED
AI-S Nikkor 300mm f/2.8 IF ED
AF-Nikkor 300mm f/4 IF ED
AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/4 IF ED
AI-S Nikkor 400mm f/3.5 IF ED
AI-S Nikkor 400mm f/5.6P IF ED
Nikkor ED 500mm f/4P
Nikon Lens Scope Converter
PN-11 Extension
PK-13 Extension
TC-16A
TC-17E II
TC-301
SU-800
SB-900 (2)
SB-800
SB-600
Ebony SW45 w/452 Extension back
Horseman 6x12 back
Nikkor SW 65mm f/4
Rodenstock 90mm f/6.8 Grandagon
Rodenstock 135mm f/4.7 Ysarex
Rodenstock 210mm f/5.6 Apo-
Sironar-S
Rodenstock 240mm f/9 Apo-Ronar 
MC
Docter 240mm f/9 Germinar-W

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anotherMike
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Re: The hair shirt theory
In reply to ponderosabob, Dec 9, 2012

Nice collection.

BTW, if you're inferring I don't have experience with the lenses I mentioned, you'd be pretty wrong. I've shot about as many lenses as you (over 40 Nikkors plus other brands), although I had a preference for Schneider glass in the large format arena over Rodenstock, but to each their own, both were quite good.

You can knock the 14-24 for it's size, etc, but the reality is that was the only way Nikon could design that zoom range with that kind of performance - it was going to have a huge front element, and thus flare was going to be an issue, it was going to be big, and it was going to be heavy. Given it replaces several primes (which, if you packed them all in a backpack would take more space than the 14-24 or even a 14-24 augmented with a 21 or 24 for filter use), I have a different conclusion than you.

Have a nice day. I don't agree with you and I found your post a touch arrogant if you were implying I haven't shot the lenses I discussed, but given you've shot large format, I have a considerable amount of automatic respect for you.

-m

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ponderosabob
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Re: The hair shirt theory
In reply to anotherMike, Dec 10, 2012

You're absolutely right, my remarks came across in the wrong way.

I also agree with you about Nikons design parameters for the 14-24. Hey, nobody has been able to make a wide zoom (or many primes for that matter) that is even close optically.

I have been so close on several occasions to buying this lens, including being on a waiting list for 3 months when it was first introduced, but never pulled the actual trigger. Even went so far as to rent it a couple times.

Best light

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Lance B
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Re: The hair shirt theory
In reply to anotherMike, Dec 10, 2012

anotherMike wrote:

Why does every post end up in a primes vs zooms argument? Silly. Lenses are tools. That's all. So much emotional BS attached to lenses - just tools. Learn to use them, all of them, and understand when and why and where they might fit the task at hand. Geeez.

The 14-24 is popular, and rightfully so, because it's BETTER than most of the older Nikon AFD primes, including the 14, 18, 20, and 24, and that's all there is to that. I've owned or shot about all of those, and certainly wouldn't have dropped 1900 bucks on the heavy wide zoom with the double D sized front element if it wasn't - I don't buy lenses to be trendy, or to cherish them like long lost soul-mates. Nikon themselves considers the 14-24 to be optically superior to the older lenses - and frankly, I don't think that sounds too unreasonable considering how long ago some of those film era primes were designed. Nikon went all-in on the aspherical element manufacturing in order to bring us the 14-24, and while it's not perfect, it sure impressed the hell out of the vast, vast, vast majority of photographers (and testers) who consider it superior to those 15+ year old primes. Only now, what, 4-5 years after its release, do we consider a small handful of lenses that might do a better job in spots (the Zeiss 21 and 25, and the Nikon 24/1.4G, and that's about it). The 14-24 Nikon will go down in history as a legendary lens design - whether a few loud posters here in dpreview think it's a good lens or not. The Nikon 14, 18, 20, 24 AFD most absolutely and certainly will not.

Anyway, this post isn't aimed at Leonard M here at all, just thought this was a place to stick another response in. Closer we get to 150, the sooner all the BS in this thread will cease

-m

Perfect post, Mike. I couldn't agree more.

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