The waiting is killing me !!

ARRRRRGGGHHH OLYMPUS!!! - shakes fist angrily at the sky - I can't stand this cr@p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmwEQB0KM8U

Just watched this and it kinda made one of my eyes twitch uncontrollably...the sad reality that there's no M4/3 camera to showcase in such a video is deeply annoying.

Why ? Why does Olympus doesn't get it ? why has it taken them so long to do such a simple thing ? they had the lead, they had years of advantage in mirrorless yet competition did it first and stupendously...

Is it really that difficult to take the E-M5 innards and move the EVF to the left and shove it inside an E-P3 body ? Doesn't the success and market demand of the NEX 7, NEX 6, X100, X-pro 1, XE-1 ensure it's a safe bet that a hump-less RF-styled PEN body would do good if not great ? I mean , C'MON !

Seriously, this is starting to feel a little bit sadistic. All this applies to Pany as well, just how many out there cried for an EVF in a GF-1 succesor ? then they got slapped in the face with the GF-2, then everyone hoped for the GF-3 to straighten the path once again and then WHAM! another slap and a yet smaller camera, then the GX1 was rumored, YAY surely this time around they realized their mistake that's why they split the GF line aaaandd POW straight in the face, a rebranded GF-2 with grip and some controls...bummer.

Why are the very same companies that introduced the mirrorless format, supposed to get rid of the mirror and prism hump, so fixated in going back to DSLR ergonomics ? They're surprisingly the only companies in the whole mirrorless market to still introduce new DSLR shaped cameras (V2 is just some ugly quasimodo thingy), yet almost every other competitor that has every reason to potect their own DSLR range has produced non-DSLR shaped alternatives, which could very well undermine they bulkier mirrored cameras, so why are Pany and Oly so desperate to neglect this growing segment of the market if they have nothing to protect ?

The presence of RF-styled bodies with EVF in M4/3 would only enrich the format with more variety and a stronger counteraction to the competition. Some people respond by pressuring others into buying a G, GH or OMD model but they fail to see this is not the only way to integrate and use an EVF. I see no pressure on Sony or Fuji or anyone else to limit their mirrorless lines to DSLR looking cameras and this has not meant their death in the mirrorless market, quite the contrary they've been very successful despite the lack of faux-DSLRs.

M4/3 could offer something for everyone, P&S upgraders, DSLR users in transition, RF-style enthusiasts...I love M4/3, I'm in for the long run so I really really hope someone at Oly or Pany has an epiphany and realizes this.

Hopefully I'll be able to replace my E-PL1 with an E-P5 someday

I agree, except in the case of the OM-D I think the hump is justified due to its throwback design philosophy.

A lot of people were hoping for EVF on the GX2, but we may not get it according to m43 rumor sites. I guess since they are still rumors there is still hope.

And doesn't the success of the E-M5 show that they were right too ??

My right eye is the dominant one.. I couldn't hold a camera with a VF on the left-hand side .. the position is just to ackward ​for me​.  Am I tghe only one .. definitely not .. So what do we do now ? Ergonomics is something very subjective.. what ​you want​ ​in terms of ergonomics is not applicable to everybody.. You need to understand that.. And Olympus is not going to build cameras with VF on the left-hand side and right-hand side to please everybody. Let me also tell you that DSLRs had (for obvious reasons) their OVF in the middle.. as far as I know.. this hasn't bothered the majority of us..

Look up the word : "Product differenciation". Panas range of product is now pretty large.. ​you should​ find a camera that (almost) fits your needs.. You want an (I suppose embedded) EVF on the GFx line.. well, that why you have the Gx (or GHx) line..

People complained that the GH2 offered insufficient stability for video. Panasonic created a larger body.. All other bodies have been miniaturised (compare the GF1 to a GF2/GF3). Olympus hasn't introduced a DSLR style body at all (I don't consider the E-M5 to look like a DSLR). Furthermore, they continued with the E-PM2 which further miniaturised the mFT bodies..

Panasonic/Olympus have already what I consider to be a very diversified product line .. sufficiently diverse to already confuse people.. I don't think that introducing marginally different bodies is a good business move.

I'm sure many people on this forum will agree with you, when there were a couple of threads talking about what they'd like to see on the GX2 most people said built in EVF RF style. Perhaps oly or pana should just put one in because of the demand. Having said that I'm sure these companies have many customers who don't frequent these sites who don't care about an EVF. They also have to protect their other lines. The OM-D would surely be affected if there is to be an ep5 that's the same but just with the evf moved. Same goes to pana and the G5.

I personally do not see what the big deal is. I have had a GX1 for a while now and I don't have an evf. I would really like one and probably will get one soon (christmas fingers crossed) and I can a detachable one. From a practical point of view the detachable evf seems more useful. It tilts, great for left eye shooters as you don't have to squash your nose against the camera and it may be easier with composition in some situations. Then if I want the camera to be small again I can take it off.

I think RF style is just the latest fashion with some people loving the look and others having some nostalgia for a camera that looks like one they had in the past. I wouldn't hold my breath for one though and if you really want one you may be better off just switching to another brand.

I agree totally! The success of the Sony & Fuji 'rangefinder' style cameras shows there is a substantial market sector that Panoly are not addressing. Given the ground breaking (at the time) GF1 I’ve been hoping that Panasonic would continue their brilliant innovation, but very sadly they’ve left it all to Sony & Fuji (and Ricoh!).

Coming from a 5D/5DII system background, I invested in a  GF1/20mm + EVF as an experiment to judge the potential of M43 for me. I recall with nostalgia my wonderful old Minolta CLE & its incredibly small and optically superb lenses, particularly as the weight and bulk of the Canon system is getting prohibitive for a lot, but not all, of my requirements. I realised two things:

1. The GF1 needed a modern sensor (the OMD now has one of course) & I’d love to see the GX2 follow suit.

2. The GX2 needs a built-in EVF for obvious reasons,  BUT also to free up the hot shoe for a really decent flash unit. Until this happens I’m afraid I can’t regard the GX series as a potential replacement for the DSLR for much of my work.

So I’m very excited by the XE-1 but still disappointed that although the lenses are superb, they are larger and heavier than their M43 equivalents and my ideal system is still  a dream.

Let’s hope that Panoly wake up before it is too late and realise that Sony & Fuji now have a significant lead which can only harm them in due course.

Now that Sony has some not inconsiderable influence over Olympus, they probably are not allowed to produce something like the NEX 6 or 7 but instead have to come up with small and high quality lenses for Sony's E-mount.

This will be a heavy blow for mFT.

And now rumors are the GX2 will have no built in EVF either.

And this is the most stupid form of protection, too: wasn't it Steve Jobs, who said, he would rather produce competition for his own products before others do it?

Well, a G-series Pana is still better to handle like any LCD only body (G3 perhaps excepted).

... someday soon, too.

I wouldn't mind an GL1 or whatever named Pana either.

Peter.

Dear Fuji and Sony,

why don't you finally give us a fully customisable camera with an EVF in the optical axis, five-axis IBIS, sports-capable S-AF and C-AF, live bulb and much more instead of your slow-ish cameras that can take fantastic pictures - but just of not moving subjects?

Don't you see the success Olympus are having with their OM-D E-M5?

Come on, how hard can it be?

--
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4004/4688736761_6fd06ae5c8_o.jpg
Why not - if there's enough space on the sofa...
I'm a HOlygan

He!!, I'm still waiting for the "professional" E1 replacement.

I'd settle for a pro OMD...

Yeah, one that focuses well with both 43 and m-43 lenses alike (phase/contrast hybrid). It's in the works I'm told... let's just hope we don't have to wait too long.

Have you ever stopped to consider that you may be part of a very small (in global terms) minority?

That is a rhetorical question by the way.

The concept that you are proposing is that neither Olympus nor Panasonic are doing any valid (to you) market research prior to developing the m43 systems they have done so far.

This concept flies in the face of the evidence.

When Panasonic launched the G1 in 2008, they did this on the back of market research in Japan (but possibly nowhere else) that suggested that Japanese consumers were looking for a camera system that would enable them to advance from being P&S (Point and Shoot) users into more accomplished photographers. They were not looking to sell the G1 to existing dSLR users. Olympus did something similar with their launch of the E-P1 in 2009.

From that point onwards there was something of a development m43 arms race between Olympus and Panasonic. Panasonic recognised that there was a market for both a small m43 system camera as well as a faux dSLR type, and they also recognised that there was a market for hybrid stills/video cameras that they had not addressed with the G1. Panasonic launched the GF1 as a small hybrid camera and the GH1 as a camera intended more for the videographer market while retaining its capability as a good stills camera. The G2 and G10 were cheaper versions.

Further market research by Panasonic made them realise that the GF1 was still too much of a leap for some of the P&S photographers, so they dumbed it down and launched the much cheaper and simpler GF2 through GF5, while retaining the hybrid small faux SLR system with the G2 through G5. Eventually the GF1 was replaced with the GX1.

Olympus have always listened very closely to their 43 (not the same as m43) system user base, and realised that a digital successor to their film OM series was awaited by many customers. Hence the launch of the highly successful OM-D E-M5. Olympus have also recognised that if they are to stay in business as one of the minnows in the photographic manufacturing world, they need to follow the old business adage of 'sticking to your knitting' (focusing on your technological and business strengths). This has always been in the field of optics; hence the development of outstanding lenses such as the 12mm f2.0 and 75mm f1.8.

The GH1 was a very successful camera for Panasonic, notably as a video system where it was perceived as small. They followed this up with the hybrid GH2 system that was an instant hit with videographers as well as with stills photographers, like me, who have large hands and can handle it easily. They were sufficiently successful with the GH2 that they went out and consulted with videographers across 4 continents over what was needed with the GH3, and the result that we are just starting to see is a direct result of that market research. The GH3 may look massive to you, but it is miniscule to many videographers.

What they saw with the GF1 was that it was a hit with former dSLR users who were accustomed to using eye level viewfinders, possibly people like you and I. In the short term in 2009 they provided an add-on viewfinder for the GF1, the LVF1, unfortunately just before Epson began supply of higher resolution viewfinders as used in the later Olympus PENs. I am one of those photographers who normally composes with an eye level viewfinder. I found that 95% of my GF1 add-on viewfinder use is for framing and reading exposure parameters before the shutter is fired. The existing lower resolution LVF1 for the GF1 does that admirably for me, while keeping the basic camera with pancake lens in the large pocketable size range. The add-on viewfinders for all Olympus and Panasonic cameras can be used by both left and right eye dominant photographers, as can the centrally positioned EVFs on the OM-D, G and GH series cameras.

I therefore ask you to consider whether or not the faux rangefinder style with integral EVF on one side of the camera body is perhaps a desire for a small minority (vocal as ever), rather than a significant market size group of photographers?

Oh dear another rhetorical question...

The GH1 was targeted at photo/video journalists not budding film makers... thankfully Panasonic got lucky and adjusted the GH line with the GH2 and then GH3.
Panasonic tried the rangefinder style with the Four Thirds with the L1, inspite of fairly good reviews wasn't the success that they hoped.

Olympus takes design and market research very seriously and in this respect haven't stumbled yet  :-] unlike Panasonic's foray into 3D, Canon's EOS-M that doesn't sit anywhere in the market, Nikon 1's targeting of soccer mums with digi-scoping accessories, ultra high pricing and patronising TV adverts, Sony NEX poor interface and Sony Australia's new advert for Nex making fun of DSLR owners when Sony still make DSLRs http://www.olympus-global.com/en/corc/design/story/omd/
....
living life to the Four Thirds!
http://www.YouDidntDidYou.com/blog

So what exactly did Panasonic do in the GH2 compared to the Gh1 to "adjust the range" rather than natural progression with better technology ?

I understand the appeal of a rangefinder style body. Right eye shooters certainly want an EVF positioned on the back upper left a la X100, but aside from no nose smudges on the LCD, the advantages of the rangefinder are actually less than you think.

Larger lenses on a grip-less camera don't balance well. The GH2, EM5 with grip, or any camera m43 or otherwise with a nice deep grip is going to balance better and provide a more stable shooting position with most lenses.

But I fully expect a "Pro PEN" to be announced at some point in the future, unless Olympus has dropped the EP line altogether. Have they?

There can be two reasons for this I can come up with (in a very simplisitc way):

1) They do not get it

2) We don't get it

1) They don't get it: RF cam sells by the buckets full but Oly and Panny rather want to sell an EVF with extra profits (for instance)

2) RF styled cams are not that important, they get sold but not nearly as much as we think they do. It is a comparetively small market....

My take: 1. I have seen more than once that a company simply does not get it. If we go by what we know (we!) we look at this forum and 43rumors and it is very very very clear what we want. If we look at Fuji and Sony. They only sell RF styled cams or mostly nowadays...

I wish my photographs could be as dramatic. Maybe if they moved the EVF there would be no limits. . .

--
...Bob, NYC
http://www.bobtullis.com
/"Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't."/ - Little Big Man
.

I looked through their list of clips and there's no M43 camera in any of them, so moving the viewfinder wouldn't have made a lot of difference. Since I'm not a dentist I don't mind having the viewfinder where Olympus put it. And since I'm not from Canada it doesn't matter to me what a camera store in Calgary thinks.

I want a pen-sized camera with an EVF that fits into my OptechUSA with a kit or 20 1.7. Unfortunately E-M5 will not due to it's hump.

My concept of a m43 camera is portability+full functionality+high image quality. I've been strugling with my Epl2 on some occasions (LCD in bright light, changing settings quickly, etc).

If I knew there's no Ep5 with an EVF coming, I would've pushed my Paypal button for E-m5 already.

Oh, that Ep5 better have 5-axis IBIS as well. And... better AF tracking, and...an extra stop in high ISO! Let them envy us, Bob, then...

Dmitry

The wait is not killing me! I wanted an OM-D in the Pen form and got the E-PL5 as soon as it was released. I now have exactly what I could not get from any camera maker: both LCD and EVF can be tilted and the LCD is a capacitive touch screen. I use my Pen with an EVF in the vertical position all the time. I take shots from ground level or overhead using the LCD. It is absolutely perfect!

I am sorry that your perfect Pen has not made it into production yet; but don't dismiss Olympus as non-performing. They are making great cameras that are just what some of us have been waiting for. The E-P5 will almost certainly be a great camera, but I am not giving up my external EVF!

Lee

The E-PL5 with ext.VF is a good solution if you dont use external flash...

The E-P5 is definitly comming but which form factor is comming?:

1. the same form factor as the E-P3

2. RF style (simmilar look with the NEX-6/7)

Ad. 1 - than it would be sensible to have a swivel hi-res LCD (921K dots, 4:3 aspect ratio) with better colours in this case as a subtitution of lacking EVF. Q: Will they include flash?

Ad. 2 - they will use wishful EVF but as a "penalty" they give you tilting LCD at the best case and get rid of the built-in flash.

Lines above represents current Olys thinking, if you want EVF and swivel screen (and internal flash) you will have to buy higher model. Rumours say there are two new cameras on the horizon - one above the EM5 and one bellow the EM5.