D5100 LCD unusable for manual shooting...should I care?

So I sprung for the D5100 today rather than the D7000 mostly based on price but also on the articulated screen. Now I read that in Live View there is no exposure meter indicator, no histogram, and no change in picture brightness, when in manual mode. I am a novice, and this is my first DSLR. Is there a reason why Nikon would do this? I'm ready to return it and see if any other Nikon can do this. I think the D7000s are gone by now.

Thanks

Jim

As far as i know, all the nikon dslrs work that way.  I never found it to be a problem though, I rarely use manual exposure mode while the light meter is working properly, I prefer to use aperture priority.  If i need to meter something, I'll look through the viewfinder.

It seems you are right. I have looked at the D3100, D3200, D5100, and D7000. None have the histogram or expected exposure meter indicator in live view manual mode. On the D7000 you also can not adjust aperture during live manual view. On the D3200, there is a numeric exposure indicator.

Gee, my six year old Canon S3 point and shoot has the numeric exposure control, adjusts the brightness of the image to show you what you will get, and has the live histogram.

I am dumfounded that Nikon, who must know that this is not good, chooses not to do the right thing because their marketing department must make sure there are reasons to spend thousands on the upper end cameras, which I presume (??) have these things fixed.

Sounds pretty poor, I think in general Nikon DSLRs are poor in live view. I don't think that this is a case of crippling (like D7000 small buffers and lack of AF-ON button) rather that people who buy DSLRs don't generally use live view much. I think that if you want to shoot in live view then you are probably better of not using a DSLR.

When I'm shooting, I'm more worried about the composition and I'm looking through my viewfinder rather than at the LCD for a live histogram.  I think most DSLR users are the same way.  My camera meters just fine and shooting RAW I pretty much have +/- 3 stops of ability to adjust highlights and shadows.  If you're using the brightness of an LCD to tell you anything on a modern camera that's just crazy.  Take photos, review them on the LCD for composition, look at the histogram to see if you want to make changes.

If you're looking for a camera to stare at a live histogram instead of focusing on what is important might I suggest something with an EVF.

I wouldn't expect to find this feature on most optical viewfinder DSLR's, I have sure never seen it. I've only seen it when you review the photo. Point n' Shoots and the new mirrorless cameras would all have this feature because they're all 100% live view cameras.  But on the optical viewfinder cameras live view is essentially for special cases only, since it's so slow as to be almost useless.

I believe the new Sony and T4i cameras are 'hybrid' sensor and they're paying a lot more attention to video than Nikon is, so maybe those are better choices right now.

it's useless for shooting manually i agree, but aperture priority i think it works rather well apart from the dof staying the same if you change aperture

--
The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.

Hi,

If you use M mode auto iso off and live view and you change f, shutter or iso you will NOT see this reflected on the LCD screen.

But if you use A, S or P mode with or without auto iso you can see the brightness of the LCD screen change as you give + or - exposure compensation !!

There is indeed NO live histogram in live view.... but you can use the LCD screen to judge exposure.

This combined with shooting RAW is IMO the best way to go with the D5100.

Greetings,
Marc

Thank you all very much. This will be my first DSLR, and I'm taking a digital photography class in the spring semester. My questions come from ignorance (plus being crazy). Your replies put me at ease.

I waffled around since Thursday over what to buy, and when the D7000s sold out yesterday, I got a D5100. One of the salesmen told me to drop back by this morning, as they might have some D7000s appear in the ordering system which gets dysfunctional during Black Friday. I went by this morning, and they had received one D7000 overnight with the 18-105 and the manager switched the $1500 price back to the Black Friday $999, and I instantly traded the D5100 in on it. I expect to keep it for many years.

I'll have many questions in the future, and I look forward to future threads.

Thank you,

Jim

You presume incorrectly, and as someone who doesn't know anything about photography, you sure are making a lot of assertions on how a camera should work.  So lets get you straightened out.

First of all, if you expect to hold up a large DSLR 12" from your face all day long, you better have a good gym nearby 'cause you're going to have to beef up your arms.  and not only is it a problem to hold the camera up, but holding it steady is troublesome as well.  With the viewfinder at your eye, you can press the camera into your face, and your elbows into your body to create a very stable platform for your camera.

Second, I wish I had a nickel for every post from someone who didn't understand why his image was overexposed/underexposed because it looked correct in the LCD.  The bottom line is that those LCDs on the back of cameras aren't good enough to judge exposure or color.  There's no calibration process available for those LCDs.

Third, the histograms from image review are already fairly useless...live histograms are even more so.  Here's a correctly exposed image and its histogram...it's correctly exposed because increasing exposure by even 1/3rd stop would cause clipping of the red channel.  There is no way to have set exposure correctly using the histogram.  The highlights barely register at all.  In this case, exposure was set using a gray card.

This image also illustrates the biggest problem with histograms...you need to know where the tones of your scene should be, in order to know if your exposure is correct.  but if you know where the tones should be, then you can expose them correctly without the histogram.  That's why the histogram is useless.

If you just want to take pictures without having any photographic knowledge, then just buy a point-n-shoot.  There's nothing wrong with that.  But don't disparage Nikon just because they make cameras for photographers.

Hi Jim,

Asking questions on this website keeps this site interesting and living, so dont hesitate, there a lot of very knowledgable forummembers who will give you good answers !!

You made a good choice ( the D5100 would have been also ok, but the D7000 certainly is a better choice for someone going to take classes ).

Maybe an extra advice, buy Thom Hogan's D7000 e-guide, this explains the D7000 in depth and gives a lot of good information.  I dis so for my D40 and D5100 and was very happy i did.

See : http://www.bythom.com/nikond7000guide.htm

You are ready to go out shooting, have fun !!

Greetings,
Marc

Thanks very much Graystar. I have a long way to go and that was a good start. I did not understand what you mean by I need to know where the tones are, but hopefully that will become clear in time. Yes, it seems pretty silly now that I was judging Nikon.I suppose my thinking has been shaped by my years with my S3.

Please keep the guidance coming...

Jim

Thanks Marc! That is a great suggestion, I did not know about them. It will be first on my list.

Jim

Hi Jim,

I forgot to mention some interesting tutorial websites in my earlier answers :
http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/articles.htm

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials.htm

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/

http://www.normankoren.com/sitemap.html

Regarding post processing ( necessary to "develop/edit/modify" your pictures  out of camera to a finalized jpg picture) :

ViewNX2 is a free nikon download program , also on the cd that came your D7000 , but probably not the most recent version.

You can use ViewNX2 for post processing ( also for RAW editing and conversion nef files to jpg files ).

If you want to learn about postprocessing with CNX2 ( not free, there are other programs to, but they dont read ALL nikon camera settings ):
http://www.capturenx.com/en/lessons/lessons/index.html

http://www.nx101.com/

Greetings,

Marc

If a dslr has a flip screen, surely it is intended to be used partly like a point-and-shoot and would benefit from things like a live meter, histograms and so on?

The Nikon D3, D3s and D800 have live histograms and meters in live view, maybe these cameras are not made for photographers though

The vast majority of P&S cameras don't have flip out screens.  They're meant to be held out in front of your face, but they're much lighter than a DSLR.  The usage of articulated monitors that I hear of most often is macro work.

On the D3 and D3s, the live histogram is only available in "tripod" mode, which is also limited to contrast-detect AF.  In "hand-held" mode, where phase-detect AF is used, there's no live histogram.  Since the Live View histogram has nothing to do with the focus method, I'm guessing that this was done in realization that no one is going to hold up a heavy camera and lens steady enough to have a stable histogram...so why block the image with a useless histogram?

The D800 does away with the tripod mode and does have a live histogram when you enable exposure preview.  But then again it also gained AutoISO by focal length...another practically useless feature that reviewers such as DPReview liked to continuously harp was missing (while never complaining about Canon and other not having a Minimum Shutter Speed setting...at least not until recently.  Seems like they finally figured out that Nikon's AutoISO had it right all along.)  So I just write those off as catering to a vocal minority.

And for anyone who thinks that using an LCD will help with the tricky exposure and get what you want...look at the following image.  The squares labeled A and B are the same shade of gray (RGB 120, 120, 120.)

That's called Color Constancy, just one of several functions of human Visual Perception that throws a wrench into this idea of using the LCD to set exposure.  It's the reason why people can't get the LCD image to look like the live scene...they don't realize that the LCD image DOES look like the live scene...its their eyes that's changing the scene.

No live histogram is going to help with that.

Checkershadow Illusion

If a camera has a mirror, surely it is not intended to be used in live view.

Thanks so much Marc!

I have taken two classes on Photoshop. The community college has a pretty good Creative Media Technology department here where I will take digital photography. I've also been taking Dreamweaver classes. I'm going to do a website that will make about 40 million dollars :-). Anyway, seriously, I have Photoshop Creative Suite 5, the full boat.

I see discussion of using Photoshop and Adobe RAW. Are these similar to the Nikon software (free and paid), or something different? I guess I mean do they both do the same things, or are they complimentary?

We learned to do many kinds of correction on photographs, but I have not taken the advanced Photoshop class yet which is taught by a supposedly really good commercial photographer who focuses on use for photography.

Thanks again....

Jim

I've been shooting with DSLRs for a long time, I am no novice, and I never use Live View.  So far, right out the chute, you have your priorities wrong.

Graystar, I don't know which question I want to ask more so will ask both.

First, in the case of the equal but apparently not equal grays on the checkerboard, if the best photography companies' algorithms don't get this right, how does the human visual system do it?

Second, having just acquired my lovely camera, I am reading every review on it, and they unanimously pan Nikon's Minimum Exposure setting as useless for everyday use but good for sports. They say--to my dismay--it should take into account the lens being used as different exposure speeds are appropriate for different length lenses. Can you explain just why they "had it right all along?" I'm fine with your using sophisticated explanations as long as you type very slowly.

Thank you again, I really appreciate your time.

Jim