D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...

Started Nov 10, 2012 | Discussions
Judy Stone
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D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
Nov 10, 2012

I just hope that this will not be the fate of Nikon, Canon too.

The era of Japanese consumer electronics giants is dead

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ThuiQuaDayNe
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Re: D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
In reply to Judy Stone, Nov 10, 2012

We have some time since Samsung just got i to camera business.

SAMSUNG has prototype point and shoot 4K camera. I say they will release next year after 4K TV.

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Kpatel55
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Re: D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
In reply to Judy Stone, Nov 10, 2012

This is what happen when companies got tooooooooo big and donot care for customers.

If Nikon does not listen to their customer then it will be history too.

It should be wake up call for all big companies.

-KP

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M Powered
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Re: D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
In reply to Kpatel55, Nov 11, 2012

Kpatel55 wrote:

This is what happen when companies got tooooooooo big and donot care for customers.

If Nikon does not listen to their customer then it will be history too.

It should be wake up call for all big companies.

-KP

This goes for a lot of things, not just camera companies.

When Nikon loses a customer because they screwed the customer over somehow, either not fixing their camera, or making them live with a defect because they are unable to fix it.  When that customer leaves, they tell all their friends, and everyone they know about their shitty experience.  Every one who listens won't bother doing research, most will just take their friends word for it and stay away from Nikon because their friend had a bad experience.

So Nikon loosing one customer, could potentially be several hundred, or thousand depending on how "public" this angry customer gets.

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gl2k
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Re: D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
In reply to Judy Stone, Nov 11, 2012

Judy Stone wrote:

I just hope that this will not be the fate of Nikon, Canon too.

The era of Japanese consumer electronics giants is dead

No company can dominate the market forever. It's almost a law of nature that companies rise and fall.

But I agree that what Nikon has given to the customers in 2012 is slightly disappointing with regard to product quality. Glitches like you mentioned can happen from time to time but Nikon better puts flawless products on the market in the future.

Nikon will definitely be put in a difficult position if they fail to set up a successful mirrorless product line. Mirrorless is the definite future. It's just a matter of time. I have my doubts on the "1" series.

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Grevture
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This is getting absurd ...
In reply to Judy Stone, Nov 11, 2012

Judy Stone wrote:

I just hope that this will not be the fate of Nikon, Canon too.

The era of Japanese consumer electronics giants is dead

I have been using cameras for 30 years. I used to read a lof of photo magazines back in the old days, before internet forums. And I have been involved in forums like this for many, many years.

As far as product quality, nothing is new. There are always debates like the D800 AF hysteria and the D600 oil spot grumbling going on, they come and go, but are largely inevitable. And they hit all brands about equally.

In the past few years Canon users has had huge debates over AF issues (much, much more serious ones then the D800), lens quality issues and the issues of sensor DR and color banding. Pentax users have cried about AF issues and oil spots (sound familiar?). Sony users have has debated around heat issues in NEX cameras, about issues relating to spots and dust on SLT mirrors. Just to take a few examples. And every where the cries are the same "brand XXX is ignoring its customers, why are they so irresponsible". It sound about the same everywhere. Really.

And the issues like these have more or less always been around. Not so long ago D7000 usres was on a war path about AF inconsistencies. And going back a bit further, anyone still remember the hysteria around D200 banding? Or the initial issues surrounding the D2H?

Interestingly, there were actually less hysteria in the debate around the much more serious issue of Nikons D2 generation of professional cameras generally being a complete and utter failure in terms of being competetive on the camera market. Nikon went from about a 55% market share among profesional photographers to less then 10% in just four years. This was a issue which posed a very real threat to Nikons demise as a serious camera manufacturer. And one that really scared the living daylight out of many Nikon executives.

Look longer back, in the pre-digital stone age of photography there were also quality issues discussied at photo clubs and in magazines. A bit less hysterical maybe, but then we did not have instant feeback forums which slowed the debate down. But the frequence and severeity of actual quality issues seem to have remained largely constant over the 30+ years I have been involved in photography. If anything, and in relating to vastly increased number of cameras used today, they are fewer and further in between. And - actually, really - less serious.

Issues like the D800 AF and the D600 oil spots are just the normal noise of forums. It has always been like that, and it is not specific to any particular brand.And they do not pose any particular threat to any given manufacturer. Much unlike the more real issues of camera brands building camera models which are commercial failures. But there the forum discussions tend to much more subdued.

It is almost to a degree where you can say, as a rule of thumb: the more intensly and aggressively a issue is discussed in forums, the less long term impcat it will have.

The article you have linked to is about a different issue altogether. It is about the normal progession of time and the slow but certain shifts of power in markets. Companies never dominate large and economically appealing business forever. There is bound to be competition and changes. Thats just how life changes and develops in the corporate world.

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u007
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Re: This is getting absurd ...
In reply to Grevture, Nov 11, 2012

Well said Grevture.

Manufacturers are selling more and more cameras than ever before. Everybody is a photographer now and even the entry level cameras are pretty amazing, shooting a clean ISO3200, tracking subjects and taking movies.

Cameras are cheaper than ever before too. I mean, a D800 is £2050. Even 3-4 years ago, that was unthinkable when an "ok-ish" high resolution sensor in the D3x was costing £5000. The d800, 5d3 are incredible value, ad the d600 is INSANE value for money. Just think what that would have cost 5 years ago.

With the 5d3 Canon made the camera that they should have made all along, and it has had price drops too. And it looks like a great performer, with a lot of people preferring the handing to the d800.

Companies now support their cameras with firmware upgrades which users can apply themselves.

We have better after sales support than ever too. It can be slow and messed up sometimes, but  as consumers we now have so many rights now. Look at your guys in America buying the camera, shooting a wedding with it and then decided you don't want it any more, then just taking it back.

I really don't think we have that many reasons to complain. Things aren't perfect but they're better than they've ever been.

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Leonard Shepherd
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Re: D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
In reply to Judy Stone, Nov 11, 2012

Whatever some "moaners" say, in the last 6 months from April to Ictober by number of units Nikon increased compact sales by 5% in a declining market segment, DSLR sales by 25% and lens sales by 20%.

Some customers seem happy with Nikon

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David314
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It is the reaction to problems that is the worry
In reply to Judy Stone, Nov 11, 2012

Judy Stone wrote:

I just hope that this will not be the fate of Nikon, Canon too.

The era of Japanese consumer electronics giants is dead

Use of social media and smart phones have changed the game on the low end

if Samsung, Nokia, or apple get their act together and make a better camera experience, the small cameras are dead

The problem with nikon is not the cameras issues, those will always happen.  It is the response to those issues.  Corporately they have chosen not to acknowledge any defects in the d800 or d600.

the policy of not selling repair parts is also disturbing

Fortunately for nikon, I don't see any competitor changing the game but I have been happy to see canon doing some positive things in owning up to issues and putting out real firmware upgrades

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GMack
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Re: D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
In reply to Judy Stone, Nov 11, 2012

The photo of the Sony TV by the garbage is similar to mine own.  I had a Sony Profield component TV setup that cost about $3,500 new.  It was a disaster to get fixed.  Even their own independent warranty outfits hated to work on them as Sony would not pay them enough to bother so it had to be taken to Sony service (and it was heavy!).  Then it cost a small fortune to get fixed.  It become like the photo with all of it sitting on the curb awaiting the garbage man to pitch all of it into his truck.

Later I owned one of their X-series $400 MP3 players that was glued together and the battery died.  Cost $280 for a new battery (flat-rate service), which actually was a refrub or wholesale replacement unit (New serial number.).

...so I've had enough of the "$ony $ervice Experience."

Nikon's current service plan in the USA seems to be running the same way Sony did.  People will get dismayed and not recommend the brand to others. Our local camera shop no longer recommends them over Canon due to ridiculous service costs (tantamount to Sony), lack of parts, and spotty service for those higher costs.  I told a university prof to stay with his Canon brand just last week for much of the above reasons.  Nikon could take lessons from Canon service.

Minolta and Pentax had very good service centers in Torrance, CA and Englewood, CO respectively, but corporate decided to downgrade them first to maximize their ROI and the brands soon after dwindled.  One gone.  The other barely holding on.

Mack

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JC1306
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Re: It is the reaction to problems that is the worry
In reply to David314, Nov 11, 2012

David314 wrote:

The problem with nikon is not the cameras issues, those will always happen. It is the response to those issues. 

I think this sentence from the article sums it up: "Panasonic and Sharp were too insular and focused on their home market to be effective enough to compete around the world." Lately have gotten the feeling that Nikon believes that they can decide what's best for us instead of listening to what their clients actually want. Message to Nikon: what works in Japan isn't necessarily representative for the entire world. It's only a matter of time before that sort of thinking gets you slapped down - hard.

Jarno

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Danielvb
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Re: D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
In reply to Kpatel55, Nov 11, 2012

Kpatel55 wrote:

This is what happen when companies got tooooooooo big and donot care for customers.

If Nikon does not listen to their customer then it will be history too.

It should be wake up call for all big companies.

-KP

That true. No more nikon for me. I got a d7000, a d800 and a d600 with problems on a 3 year period. I think i´m giving up. The fuji xe1 looks promising to me. The sad part is my collection of AI lenses.

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marike6
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Re: D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
In reply to Judy Stone, Nov 11, 2012

This post and this forum is well past ridiculous with all the Nikon bashing.  It's a joke really.  Nikon is having one of it's best years, with 3 cameras at the top for IQ.  I've been using Nikon since F100 days, and have owned a D70, D200, D7000, and now have a D800 that has not had a single problem, and I use it almost every day.

If people are having issues there should be a forum rule: no pictures posted here of the said problem, then for all intents and purposes you don't have a problem.  As far as I get tell, there are so many users here who are making all these wild claims for attention, that it's EXTREMELY difficult to weed through the BS.

Nikon is have a banner year as they have now made three FF DSLR that are at the very top of their class for performance.  They have upped their video quality so now HDSLR production houses are using Nikons instead of having only Canon as a choice. But all the complaining, rumors, people who don't that ALL DSLR get dust on the sensors that takes 2 minutes to clean with pec pads and Elcipse, has just reduced this forum to rubble.  I used to look forward to visiting here to talk about great gear with knowledgable users.  Those days are long gone.

The Canon forum guys are laughing now, and word is getting out that Nikon's are pieces of sh*t in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  I hope you are all proud of yourselves.

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marike6
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Re: D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
In reply to Danielvb, Nov 11, 2012

Danielvb wrote:

Kpatel55 wrote:

This is what happen when companies got tooooooooo big and donot care for customers.

If Nikon does not listen to their customer then it will be history too.

It should be wake up call for all big companies.

-KP

That true. No more nikon for me. I got a d7000, a d800 and a d600 with problems on a 3 year period. I think i´m giving up. The fuji xe1 looks promising to me. The sad part is my collection of AI lenses.

3 year period? The D800 has only been out for a few months, and the D600 for even less.

What issues are you having, and do you any pictures that you would like to show here?

I haven't had a single problem with my D7000 or my D800. I have an X-Pro1 which is great for an APS-C camera but cannot be compare to my D800 in low-light.

Anyway, it's always good to have photos. This is a photography forum after all.

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Wellington100
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Re: It is the reaction to problems that is the worry
In reply to David314, Nov 11, 2012

David314 wrote:

Judy Stone wrote:

I just hope that this will not be the fate of Nikon, Canon too.

The era of Japanese consumer electronics giants is dead

Use of social media and smart phones have changed the game on the low end

if Samsung, Nokia, or apple get their act together and make a better camera experience, the small cameras are dead

The problem with nikon is not the cameras issues, those will always happen. It is the response to those issues. Corporately they have chosen not to acknowledge any defects in the d800 or d600.

the policy of not selling repair parts is also disturbing

Fortunately for nikon, I don't see any competitor changing the game but I have been happy to see canon doing some positive things in owning up to issues and putting out real firmware upgrades

I don't agree, I don't want an expensive Apple smartphone and an expensive contract just to take a few photos. Nor do I want a cheaper Android Smartphone and its complex non upgradable operating system just to take a few photos.

Quality compact cameras won't be replaced by smartphones as they are too specialised and cheap compact cameras are still way cheaper, more convenient and specialised than a smartphone.

I would suggest that only the most casual of snappers have switched to smartphones. Sure there are millions and millions of them but anyone with even a slight interest in the images they aquire will ultimately want a dedicated camera of some sort.

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Wellington100
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Re: D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
In reply to Judy Stone, Nov 11, 2012

Judy Stone wrote:

I just hope that this will not be the fate of Nikon, Canon too.

The era of Japanese consumer electronics giants is dead

Its lucky that Nikon is not a consumer electronics giant and never has been. Nikon is like Porsche or Ducati, a specialised company that does one thing very well.

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Nikonfan99
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Re: D600 Oil spots, D800 AF issue, and now this...
In reply to marike6, Nov 11, 2012

marike6 wrote:

This post and this forum is well past ridiculous with all the Nikon bashing. It's a joke really. Nikon is having one of it's best years, with 3 cameras at the top for IQ. I've been using Nikon since F100 days, and have owned a D70, D200, D7000, and now have a D800 that has not had a single problem, and I use it almost every day.

If people are having issues there should be a forum rule: no pictures posted here of the said problem, then for all intents and purposes you don't have a problem. As far as I get tell, there are so many users here who are making all these wild claims for attention, that it's EXTREMELY difficult to weed through the BS.

Nikon is have a banner year as they have now made three FF DSLR that are at the very top of their class for performance. They have upped their video quality so now HDSLR production houses are using Nikons instead of having only Canon as a choice. But all the complaining, rumors, people who don't that ALL DSLR get dust on the sensors that takes 2 minutes to clean with pec pads and Elcipse, has just reduced this forum to rubble. I used to look forward to visiting here to talk about great gear with knowledgable users. Those days are long gone.

The Canon forum guys are laughing now, and word is getting out that Nikon's are pieces of sh*t in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I hope you are all proud of yourselves.

I agree. Hey complaining folks, where are these photos that are messed up? I have yet to see actual photos beyond sky and walls. If it is not impacting your photos why are we looking for a problem? Even in the sky shots, nothing a few clicks in photoshop can’t fix. I guess people have nothing better to do or want to turn this into an ethics debate. Any real pro is going to understand this issue and fix it. A non pro should not complain unless it is stopping them from taking a photo and they also would not have known about it unless they went looking for it. Nikon is not going to fix your issue!!!! Keep arguing this and wishing and waiting as reports come back one after another of nikon just doing a cleaning. Seriously people what do you think is going to happen? You have any reports with invoice attached saying that nikon replaced anything in reference to the dust on the d600? I have yet to see one. News flash some d7000’s and other cameras have the SAME issue.

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bgbs
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Economic circumstances in Japan
In reply to Judy Stone, Nov 11, 2012

Japan has adopted too many socialist policies.  Most companies in Japan today break even because of enormous corporate texas.  You cannot stay innovate for too long if your company is not raking in good profits.

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Use your lenses on the Fuji w/ a converter
In reply to Danielvb, Nov 12, 2012

The XP1 and XE1 have lens converters for lenses from Leica M, Olympus OM, Nikon, Canon, etc.

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Prairie Pal
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News Flash: Sky and walls actually exist in real life pictures
In reply to Nikonfan99, Nov 12, 2012

Nikonfan99 wrote:


I agree. Hey complaining folks, where are these photos that are messed up? I have yet to see actual photos beyond sky and walls. If it is not impacting your photos why are we looking for a problem? Even in the sky shots, nothing a few clicks in photoshop can’t fix. I guess people have nothing better to do or want to turn this into an ethics debate. Any real pro is going to understand this issue and fix it. A non pro should not complain unless it is stopping them from taking a photo and they also would not have known about it unless they went looking for it. Nikon is not going to fix your issue!!!! Keep arguing this and wishing and waiting as reports come back one after another of nikon just doing a cleaning. Seriously people what do you think is going to happen? You have any reports with invoice attached saying that nikon replaced anything in reference to the dust on the d600? I have yet to see one. News flash some d7000’s and other cameras have the SAME issue.

Believe it or not, walls and skies exist in real life. As do white wedding dresses, bridesmaid dresses, table clothes, back drops. Here is a real life sample. I didn't shoot this image with intentions of finding spots, however it was taken about 100 shots into the afternoon AFTER the sensor had been cleaned "spotless".



those aren't birds.



top left.

Since you think people have to present images to YOU of their dirty sensor to justify their posting, how about YOU provide some kind of credentials as a professional photographer, or even a photographer of any sort. Do you have a website? Samples? Any images at all that would demonstrate yoiu have talent? Because honestly, your demeaner since you signed up at Dpreview is so far from professional that I stopped believing you a long time ago. And yet you keep throwing around the term "professional" as if to qualify your opinions and to justify your disrespectful way of communicating them. 270 posts during the 36 days since registering as Nikonfan99, and almost every one of those posts obsessed on one topic. That would be time better spent focused on your clients by improving your photography and people skills.

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