This is goodbye

Started Nov 9, 2012 | Discussions
ChefAlex
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This is goodbye
Nov 9, 2012

Hi all, this will be my last thread in the NEX forum. I have just sold my NEX 7 and all the gear I had for it.  I love the comfort of the small size and quality of the build, tri-navi and other features but the low light capabilities were killing me. At ISO 400, there would be considerable amount of noise in the photos and PP took too much time and effort.

I am moving over Canon as I have already started using their glass. One question for you would be, which camera body to choose? 60d, 7d, 650d or maybe another suggestion?

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The Lotus Eater
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to ChefAlex, Nov 9, 2012

The ISO performance of the current Canon 18mp sensor is worse than the NEX-7, not to mention its inferior dynamic range, so I'm kind of baffled by your decision.

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shawn0611
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to The Lotus Eater, Nov 9, 2012

6d, 5d2 or 5d3...if you are considering changing to a canon crop sensor dslr you are just going to regret it...

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DezM
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to ChefAlex, Nov 9, 2012

Alex, I'm surprised. I'm not having noise issues at ISO 400 or even 800. Are you exposing properly?

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blue_skies
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to DezM, Nov 9, 2012

DezM wrote:

Alex, I'm surprised. I'm not having noise issues at ISO 400 or even 800. Are you exposing properly?

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+1

Bizarre indeed - this is supposed to be one of the Nex's strength. ISO 400 and even ISO 800 should be extremely clean, and I cannot see a Canon crop-sensor being able to improve on this.

What camera mode? Maybe you are viewing blur instead of noise?

Do remember that the Nex-7 has 24Mp, so any 'pixel peeping' analysis will appear worse than that of a 16Mp, or 18Mp sensor.

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Cheers,
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sgoldswo
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to ChefAlex, Nov 9, 2012

ChefAlex wrote:

Hi all, this will be my last thread in the NEX forum. I have just sold my NEX 7 and all the gear I had for it. I love the comfort of the small size and quality of the build, tri-navi and other features but the low light capabilities were killing me. At ISO 400, there would be considerable amount of noise in the photos and PP took too much time and effort.

I am moving over Canon as I have already started using their glass. One question for you would be, which camera body to choose? 60d, 7d, 650d or maybe another suggestion?

None of those if you want low light ability. Either you need to go for a full frame body (personally I suspect a 5D II or Nikon D700 are the best DSLRs that won't break the bank for that) or you need to look at the Fuji X cameras which have similar ISO performance to the D700 (but have other issues you can find out about on the Fuji Forum).

If you still had some glass or adaptors I would suggest you try out the NEX-6. In fact, rather than suggest you buy a huge DSLR with worse ISO performance than your NEX (canon APS-C) I would suggest going to a camera store and playing with the NEX-6 and Fuji XE-1.

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Klipsen
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to ChefAlex, Nov 9, 2012

ChefAlex wrote:

I am moving over Canon as I have already started using their glass. One question for you would be, which camera body to choose? 60d, 7d, 650d or maybe another suggestion?

My next camera is unlikely to be a Sony, but I don't think this is the best place to ask about what model to buy from another manufacturer.

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Ceterum censeo soleam calidam ISO esse delendam.

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teaberry
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Yeah, going to a FF sensor camera would make more sense
In reply to shawn0611, Nov 9, 2012

Granted I do notice a bit more noise in my nex-7 over the 5n I sold, but it was manageable for me. I've tried my brother's T2i when I bought my nex-5 and low-light, 5 was better. I recently tried a friend's T3i and while it focused better, again, low-light was better on 5n.

some pics from my recent trip w/ nex-7.



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DtEW
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to ChefAlex, Nov 9, 2012

This. Thread. Makes. No. Sense.

Not attacking you, ChefAlex... but have you researched this decision in any depth?

Also, if your prior-stated purpose for the camera holds (food photography), why are you shooting at anything other than base ISO on some sort of support?

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Robert Garcia NYC
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to DtEW, Nov 9, 2012

Go for the canon full frame. APS size sony is way ahead of the game (and I own Canon equipment) unless you want to try your hand with the fuji. The Lenses are excellent though maybe wait until next year they supposedly have a new sensor coming out.

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S.A.
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to DtEW, Nov 9, 2012

Also, if your prior-stated purpose for the camera holds (food photography), why are you shooting at anything other than base ISO on some sort of support?

If that's the case, he should be using strobes anyway. No need for higher ISO.

But Mr. chef, if you are looking for high ISO, then definitely go full frame. Don't compromise with APSC.

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viking79
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to ChefAlex, Nov 9, 2012

ChefAlex wrote:

Hi all, this will be my last thread in the NEX forum. I have just sold my NEX 7 and all the gear I had for it. I love the comfort of the small size and quality of the build, tri-navi and other features but the low light capabilities were killing me. At ISO 400, there would be considerable amount of noise in the photos and PP took too much time and effort.

I am moving over Canon as I have already started using their glass. One question for you would be, which camera body to choose? 60d, 7d, 650d or maybe another suggestion?

The NEX 7 is 24 MP so it will look worse at the pixel level, but that is not how you view images. Images are printed or resized to something that fits screen dimensions, so they will generally look better. The NEX will look better than the Canon at similar output, but the Canon isn't bad either. All are APS-C.

How was the noise hurting your work? Weren't able to get low enough noise to sell stock photos, or something else?

If you really need better noise performance, all the APS-C cameras are going to be fairly close and you need to go to a larger sensor, or make sure to take a tripod and use ISO 400 or less if that is your cutoff point. I assume you are shooting RAW if you are this sensitive about mottling(noise) in high ISO shots?

A D600 looks like a very good value camera for noise, etc. Large pixel size will make it look better at the pixel level, etc. Also a used D700 or 5dII isn't much more than a NEX 7. But the particular models you are looking at? They are all great cameras, but I fear you will be less happy with noise performance from those than the NEX 7.  If you want high ISO JPEG you might look into a Fuji X Pro1 or X-E1, they both have very low noise JPEGs from camera.

Eric

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novak977
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to ChefAlex, Nov 9, 2012

The Canon's sensor has sucha poor Dynamic range - you get horrible pattern noise that doesn;t clean well if you push file even just a stop. 
I replaced my 5DMKII with A900 - yes a bit noiser in the beginning, but you could push it really far with random noise pattern it cleans much better than canon.

5n, 5r and 6 are so good with noise (shooting RAW) - you should check it out.

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jpr2
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Alex: this might be of interest to you: my sentiments on N7 vs. 7D - perhaps
In reply to The Lotus Eater, Nov 9, 2012
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FuzzyQball
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to ChefAlex, Nov 9, 2012

I can comfortably got to 3200 with my nex 5n.  Even 6400 is not too bad.  The 5n does seem to be slightly better than the 7 in low light.

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Glenn

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fotofotogger
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Re: Alex: this might be of interest to you: my sentiments on N7 vs. 7D - perhaps
In reply to jpr2, Nov 9, 2012

I seen pics here the other day - big crops and rather n7 was pretty close to the Nikon d800 - pretty amazing - something is up if you have noise at 400 ....

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seachicken2000
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to sgoldswo, Nov 10, 2012

sgoldswo wrote:

None of those if you want low light ability. Either you need to go for a full frame body (personally I suspect a 5D II or Nikon D700 are the best DSLRs that won't break the bank for that) or you need to look at the Fuji X cameras which have similar ISO performance to the D700 (but have other issues you can find out about on the Fuji Forum).

I agree. Full frame is the way to go to get lower noise (at the cost of a shallower DoF) than the NEX cameras. The 5D III is about 1 1/2 stops better.

I am not convinced the Fuji X cameras are any better than the NEX cameras at high ISO, but I am pretty convinced that both are as good as it gets at APS-C right now. I saw a lot of examples based on DPR images that seemed to show incredible high-ISO performance relative to the NEX-7. I decided to check it out, and imported DPRs NEX-7 RAWs into Aperture myself (I had to use with JPGs for the X-Pro as RAW is not yet supported).

This is what I found (both shots at 1/1000s f/8):

I didn't process the RAW at all, just imported it, so no sharpening. Neither of these are what I'd call disastrously noisy given the degree of pixel peeping needed to get down to this level of detail. I also don't see much of a difference between the two.

The image I got seems a lot better than DPRs. My guess is that RAW processors evolve, and the latest version of Apple's RAW converter is better than the Adobe converter used by DPR when they tested (the latest version of that may also have improved).

Comparing OOC JPGs would be another matter. There's no doubt the Fuji JPG engine is one of the best.

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DuncanDovovan
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to ChefAlex, Nov 10, 2012

Sorry if I'm wrong, but your post sounds a bit "troll-like" to me. =;-)

If noise was such a big deal, I would not expect you to sell your NEX-7 and not know your new camera. Selling your camera is a big deal and you have to research if that makes sense at all.

The cameras that you mention do not perform better in terms of noise. So you may have been too quickly jumping into action.

Have a look at the DPREVIEW test of the NEX 7 and compare to the Canon 7D for example.

NEX-7 left compared to EOS 7D right JPG @ISO3200

I think the NEX-7 outperforms the 7d at ISO 3200.

NEX-7 left compared to EOS 5DIII right JPG @ISO3200

I think the NEX-7 even delivers equal results with the 5d Mark III at ISO 3200!

NEX-7 left compared to EOS 7D right JPG @6400

Even at ISO 6400 the NEX-7 has less noise but also more blur. If you tune down the noise reduction on the NEX-7 you probably get the result of the 7d.

NEX-7 left compared to EOS 5DIII right JPG @ISO6400

The full frame 5d Mark III clearly outperforms the NEX-7 at ISO 6400.

With RAW the NEX-7 shows just more noise @ ISO 3200 compared to the 7d:

NEX-7 left compared to EOS 7D right RAW @ISO3200

But if you reduce the NEX-7 to the 7d crop the difference is still there but less clear. Here I reduced the NEX-7 to the size of the 7d and put the 7d result behind it on the left side:

NEX-7 left compared to EOS 7D right RAW @ISO3200

Bottom line: I think you probably need a full frame camera that is 3x more expensive than the NEX-7 to achieve better results at ISO6400.

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Tommygun45
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Re: This is goodbye
In reply to DuncanDovovan, Nov 10, 2012

I don't know man. The cameras you listed won't be any better than your 7. You need to perhaps work on shutter times and getting a remote control and tripod if youre shooting food. Use iso 100 and never leave it. These were all at 3200 and hand held. And granted they are on the 5n which is a little better than the 7, but still, they are close. Virtually impossible for any camera not FF to pull this off.



FD 24

Handheld with Sigma

Sig 30

Sel 18200



FD 24

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nzmacro
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I'm a little lost
In reply to ChefAlex, Nov 10, 2012

ChefAlex wrote:

Hi all, this will be my last thread in the NEX forum. I have just sold my NEX 7 and all the gear I had for it. I love the comfort of the small size and quality of the build, tri-navi and other features but the low light capabilities were killing me. At ISO 400, there would be considerable amount of noise in the photos and PP took too much time and effort.

I am moving over Canon as I have already started using their glass. One question for you would be, which camera body to choose? 60d, 7d, 650d or maybe another suggestion?

I've thought about it Alex, but that's all. The only thing that makes sense is to go full frame, not APS-C. I would find that a complete waste of time and money.

Even DPR said about the m4/3 OMD EM-5, there is only one way to go, full frame because APS-C is not a big enough jump and thats with an m4/3 camera.

You must know what I take with bird shots and heres the thing, I use exclusively ISO 200 and ISO 400. I have to virtually crop every image I take and sometimes by a lot, I never hide the fact and what happens with that is, I get to pixel peep and see noise enlarged more than most people on here. ISO 400 is pretty darn good Alex, not perfect in a heavy crop, but no worse than any other APS-C for the sensor the NEX-7 has. It also holds the details when heavily cropped and I would throw it up against a 7D any day. In fact I do in nature forums I post to as well. Most Canon and Nikon nature shooters cannot believe the IQ from the 7. The glass helps I use as well though.

So for me, there is only one jump and its not one I will take, thats to go full frame and even then, the NEX is pretty much up there with who and what i post next to.

All the best Alex, interesting but you must do what you feel is right. Take a bit more time on deciding though.

Danny.

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