RAW/JPG Article

Started Nov 8, 2012 | Discussions
ranger604
New MemberPosts: 18Gear list
Like?
Re: RAW/JPG Article
In reply to VirtualMirage, Nov 9, 2012

VirtualMirage wrote:

ranger604 wrote:

RAW vs. JPG Article

Found value in this simple article, and thought I would share.

not intended to ignite flame-throwers, or sharpen swords. Just an article that helped me through a better understanding.

Well, it looks like the flame throwers got ignited anyways.

Inevitable, I suppose.  Such a polarizing topic.  Obviously I didn't hide the matches well enough.

i enjoy a lot of posts and advice I find here, but rarely post.  Can't imagine why.....

 ranger604's gear list:ranger604's gear list
Sony SLT-A77 Olympus E-M1 Sony DT 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 Sigma 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8 +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ranger604
New MemberPosts: 18Gear list
Like?
Re: RAW/JPG Article
In reply to ranger604, Nov 9, 2012
 ranger604's gear list:ranger604's gear list
Sony SLT-A77 Olympus E-M1 Sony DT 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 Sigma 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8 +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
marike6
Senior MemberPosts: 5,070Gear list
Like?
Re: it's a little more complicated than that
In reply to moimoi, Nov 9, 2012

moimoi wrote:

The only reason to favor jpg against raw is laziness. I never shoot jpg.

Exactly.  I'm amazed that people buy high-end DSLRs with top glass, and shoot 8-bit JPEG.  Archiving in JPEG form is just plain silly, so I cannot see any reason to shoot them unless you just don't care or are taking meaningless snapshots.

With editors like Lightroom making conversion as simple as "Exporting to JPEG", there is almost no reason to shoot JPEG.  If you don't think you'll have time to work in LR on any given shoot, at least shoot RAW + JPEG so you at least have one 14-bit digital negative of your image to hang onto.

 marike6's gear list:marike6's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P330 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Nikon D800 Fujifilm X-E1 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
EvilOne
Forum ProPosts: 13,572Gear list
Like?
Re: it's a little more complicated than that
In reply to marike6, Nov 9, 2012

marike6 wrote:

moimoi wrote:

The only reason to favor jpg against raw is laziness. I never shoot jpg.

Exactly. I'm amazed that people buy high-end DSLRs with top glass, and shoot 8-bit JPEG. meaningless snapshots.

Meaningless snap shots?????? You Ass !

Here is a meaningless snap shot taken 64 years  ago of my deceased mother and father and brother with me....

Meaningless my Ass

Here is another meaningless snap shot taken 68 years ago of me and my mother... Lack of archivial integrity???  You know nothing about archivial images or what capturing a memory is all about

1944

Here is just another meaningless snap shot of my parents taken 70 years ago.

Caturing a memory is all about the memory not whether or not it is 8 bit or 12 bit.

Its the snap shot.. not the quality.

I take all my meaning less memories with high end gear today and I shoot JPEG ONLY.

in 60 or 70 years from now I will be very pleased with this snap shot of my # 2 Grandson, and so will he

-- hide signature --

Bill aka EO

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
tko
tko
Forum ProPosts: 10,253
Like?
what are the reasons to use JPEG?
In reply to William Porter, Nov 9, 2012

I assume that since this a photography forum, you'd like decent photos and so go through some minimum editing process, starting with finding your best photos of the day.

Hard to get crop and level perfect, so you probably want to adjust that. WB, except in the most benign of conditions (outdoors in sunshine) is probably off a little. May want a little fill in many outdoor photos, some noise reduction for those difficult indoor shots, recover the highlights in high contrast outdoor scenes. Maybe add some vignetting for portraits, remove some for landscape. Add some sharpening, the amount depending on what you're going to do with the photo.

These are minimum, basic processing steps you should do for any photo you show to the world. Yet I find all these simple steps are easily and faster in my (ACR) RAW converting program. The tools, work flow, and results are simpler and better. For example, adjusting WB in Adobe RAW (to me) is easier than in Photoshop itself.

Once more, once you get the basic setting right for one photo, you can apply them to a batch of photos all at once, saving more time.

Plus (and it's a big plus), there are now many settings on my camera I don't have to worry about, speeding up my photographer further. WB, sharpness, contrast, color - no need. I never worry about the "look" of my camera's native about, no whining about skin tones or the Oly or Canon or Nikon colors or which JPEG engine is better. Just shoot and have fun.

I do this for B-day snapshots, fun photos, hikes, whatever. Always want to present my best work.

So, for me using RAW is a time saver, very important in my busy life.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
tko
tko
Forum ProPosts: 10,253
Like?
RAW isn't just for exposure
In reply to gil, Nov 9, 2012

How do you get the noise reduction right? White balance? Contrast? Sharpness? Do you ever need fill or highlight recovery for high contrast scenes?

RAW isn't just for exposure. And for difficult scenes, getting the exposure right can take longer than shooting and processing RAW.

It kind of kills me when people suggest the are so good they get exposure, WB, contrast, and sharpness right on every photo, but have no interest in using RAW.

gil wrote:

have any problem with others finding satisfaction with RAW :-D. De gustibus non est disputandum - of likes and dislikes, there should be no disputing - live and let live.

cheers,

gil

-- hide signature --

Cheers, gil - San Jose, CA Cheap Lens, JPG and 100% Handholding Provocateur Like happiness, photography is often better created than pursued.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
moimoi
Senior MemberPosts: 3,019
Like?
Re: what are the reasons to use JPEG?
In reply to tko, Nov 9, 2012

tko wrote:

I assume that since this a photography forum, you'd like decent photos and so go through some minimum editing process, starting with finding your best photos of the day.

Hard to get crop and level perfect, so you probably want to adjust that. WB, except in the most benign of conditions (outdoors in sunshine) is probably off a little. May want a little fill in many outdoor photos, some noise reduction for those difficult indoor shots, recover the highlights in high contrast outdoor scenes. Maybe add some vignetting for portraits, remove some for landscape. Add some sharpening, the amount depending on what you're going to do with the photo.

These are minimum, basic processing steps you should do for any photo you show to the world. Yet I find all these simple steps are easily and faster in my (ACR) RAW converting program. The tools, work flow, and results are simpler and better. For example, adjusting WB in Adobe RAW (to me) is easier than in Photoshop itself.

Once more, once you get the basic setting right for one photo, you can apply them to a batch of photos all at once, saving more time.

Plus (and it's a big plus), there are now many settings on my camera I don't have to worry about, speeding up my photographer further. WB, sharpness, contrast, color - no need. I never worry about the "look" of my camera's native about, no whining about skin tones or the Oly or Canon or Nikon colors or which JPEG engine is better. Just shoot and have fun.

I do this for B-day snapshots, fun photos, hikes, whatever. Always want to present my best work.

So, for me using RAW is a time saver, very important in my busy life.

Yup, but more importantly, you are not throwing away the extra 4 or 6 bits (12 or 14 bits) of data while shooting raw.  As far as I am concerned, that is the most important aspect of shooting raw, as well as maximizing the amount of control you want on your photography.  For those reasons, I found raw simply priceless to use.

-- hide signature --

All harsh, impolite and/or unreasonable replies will be simply ignored.
Measurebators are out of my world, photography is not about babbling behind a computer... but rather being out of your home, shoot and share photographs with other people. Shoot and Share...Thanks.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
moimoi
Senior MemberPosts: 3,019
Like?
Re: RAW isn't just for exposure
In reply to tko, Nov 9, 2012

tko wrote:

How do you get the noise reduction right? White balance? Contrast? Sharpness? Do you ever need fill or highlight recovery for high contrast scenes?

RAW isn't just for exposure. And for difficult scenes, getting the exposure right can take longer than shooting and processing RAW.

It kind of kills me when people suggest the are so good they get exposure, WB, contrast, and sharpness right on every photo, but have no interest in using RAW.

I think this is an unfortunate reality, which is hard to face sometime, but that's the way it is, you won't change people, they only change if they are willing to do so.

gil wrote:

have any problem with others finding satisfaction with RAW :-D. De gustibus non est disputandum - of likes and dislikes, there should be no disputing - live and let live.

cheers,

gil

-- hide signature --

Cheers, gil - San Jose, CA Cheap Lens, JPG and 100% Handholding Provocateur Like happiness, photography is often better created than pursued.

-- hide signature --

All harsh, impolite and/or unreasonable replies will be simply ignored.
Measurebators are out of my world, photography is not about babbling behind a computer... but rather being out of your home, shoot and share photographs with other people. Shoot and Share...Thanks.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
OntarioJohn
Senior MemberPosts: 1,959Gear list
Like?
Re: it's a little more complicated than that
In reply to EvilOne, Nov 9, 2012

EvilOne wrote:

I go to the gym 6 days a week, I practice and shoot competitively in pistol and bench rest competitions.. I also shoot wild life and can spend 8 hours in the woods 4 days a week.

So somewhere in the world  you can shoot pistols and bench rests and wild life.  Most of the wild life in my city is racoons and university students.  About equal, as there are 30,000 University students and the same number of racoons trying to get into my attic.

I so with you live here M. Evil ou mauvais.  You could shoot de raton han mak happy me.

I see my grandchildren and play with them 3 days a week...

I have a wife of 45 years married

To who?

and she is my number one priority...

and all these things take precedent over spending time processing RAW images...

I think the same thing except for oysters eh?

So as I said, your premise is rude and condescending... because "YOU " never shoot JPEG..

Some of the pros only make one shot a day.  My relative on my Mom's side does the 3M and cornflakes.  Once a week maybe.  Good work if you get that right?

what does that mean to the rest of us who have much higher priorities than processing RAW images but still find that shooting snap shots

Oh now don't say snap shots, that gets people started and they hate us because we have nice gear and snap off shots.

and recording memories on a daily basis is in any way wrong because that's not what you do !....

Different strokes.  I like dat J stroke where the blade stay in the water.

fairly pathetic if you ask me...

-- hide signature --

Bill aka EO

Thanks Bill you mak me snort laugh icitte.

-- hide signature --

Retired forensic photographer.
London, Ontario, Canada.

 OntarioJohn's gear list:OntarioJohn's gear list
Konica Minolta Maxxum 5D Sony Alpha DSLR-A100 Sony SLT-A77 Sony 70-300mm F4.5-5.6 G SSM Sony DT 16-50mm F2.8 SSM +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
skygkar
Junior MemberPosts: 39Gear list
Like?
Re: RAW/JPG Article
In reply to VirtualMirage, Nov 9, 2012

I have quite the same questions : I shoot raw+jpg but would like eventually to switch to raw only which would get rid of the jpg duplicates I almost nerver use myself.

But doing that is almost like switching to bluray only while all your friends still have DVD-only players. When with friends in week-end, vacation, etc... it is not unusual that they take my SD-card and upload photos to their laptop or tablet, and JPG makes things a LOT easier than starting my own laptop (if I have it) and converting those raw files.

And that may also give others the impression that I consider myself "a pro" with a "Oh ? you don't process raw files ?" attitude...

So I'll keep the raw+jpg setting active if only to share.

Skygkar

 skygkar's gear list:skygkar's gear list
Fujifilm X100S Fujifilm X-T1 Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Adobe Photoshop Lightroom 5 Apple iPhone 4 +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Setter Dog
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,777
Like?
Re: what are the reasons to use JPEG?
In reply to tko, Nov 9, 2012

tko wrote:


These are minimum, basic processing steps you should do for any photo you show to the world.

Who wants to show their photos to the world?

Jack

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
VirtualMirage
Senior MemberPosts: 2,399Gear list
Like?
Re: RAW/JPG Article
In reply to skygkar, Nov 9, 2012

skygkar wrote:

I have quite the same questions : I shoot raw+jpg but would like eventually to switch to raw only which would get rid of the jpg duplicates I almost nerver use myself.

But doing that is almost like switching to bluray only while all your friends still have DVD-only players. When with friends in week-end, vacation, etc... it is not unusual that they take my SD-card and upload photos to their laptop or tablet, and JPG makes things a LOT easier than starting my own laptop (if I have it) and converting those raw files.

And that may also give others the impression that I consider myself "a pro" with a "Oh ? you don't process raw files ?" attitude...

So I'll keep the raw+jpg setting active if only to share.

Skygkar

I have had instances where I need to share photos. If I know that is what I will be doing, then for those instances I can go to RAW+JPEG.  But when I know it is just me and my immediate family I have no need.

Currently, though, most pictures I need to share I will give to them at a later point instead of right then and there.  I will usually upload them to a site for them to access.  And since most of them have no interest in pixel peeping or printing, I don't have to upload a full size photo for them either.

-- hide signature --

Paul

 VirtualMirage's gear list:VirtualMirage's gear list
Sony RX100 Sony SLT-A77 Sony a77 II Sony 50mm F1.4 Tokina AT-X Pro 11-16mm f/2.8 DX +24 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
marike6
Senior MemberPosts: 5,070Gear list
Like?
Re: it's a little more complicated than that
In reply to EvilOne, Nov 9, 2012

Not sure why you're calling me names,

by "meaningless" I meant "unimportant" in the sense that they are just quick grab shots.  I never said family photos, as clearly those are important.   Wasn't trying to offend, just trying to distinguish a quick snap for your Facebook page in which you might shoot JPEG for speed vs a landscape image you make with your tripod or a studio portrait with strobes where you'd certainly want to shoot RAW.

But you posting those wonderful images brings up a greater point: Would you rather have those priceless images in JPEG, or a proper DNG or RAW?

 marike6's gear list:marike6's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P330 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Nikon D800 Fujifilm X-E1 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
marike6
Senior MemberPosts: 5,070Gear list
Like?
Re: what are the reasons to use JPEG?
In reply to tko, Nov 9, 2012

Totally agree.  The very fact that you're getting a higher 14-bit "digital negative" which never degrades as JPEG does when you edit it is reason enough to shoot RAW only, or RAW + JPEG at the very least.  I almost never shoot JPEG only, or RAW + JPEG.  I'd rather create my own JPEGs in Lightroom as that's my workflow, and ultimately for archiving I never want to be stuck with only JPEGs.

 marike6's gear list:marike6's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P330 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Nikon D800 Fujifilm X-E1 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
gil
gil
Forum ProPosts: 16,560
Like?
Why do you want people to change if they are happy on what they are...(more)
In reply to moimoi, Nov 10, 2012

doing? You think you have a superior process than what others are using? I am happy with what I use and it is not RAW. I am not asking you or others to convince me otherwise as I am just giving another insight on why some like me would just stick it out with JPG to balance out why some wants it in RAW. If you are happy with RAW, so be it but don't keep on repeating the mantra that it is applicable to all.

cheers,

gil

-- hide signature --

Cheers, gil - San Jose, CA Cheap Lens, JPG and 100% Handholding Provocateur Like happiness, photography is often better created than pursued.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
gil
gil
Forum ProPosts: 16,560
Like?
Re: RAW isn't just for exposure
In reply to tko, Nov 10, 2012

tko wrote:

How do you get the noise reduction right? White balance? Contrast? Sharpness? Do you ever need fill or highlight recovery for high contrast scenes?

<gil> Fair questions and here are some amateurish input from me. You must know the answer to that if you believe yourself as a photographer :-). With years of amateur practice, studying the subject, locations' light/angles, experimentation, analyzing results, etc.; one can now set in the camera baseline settings that you have mentioned. In my case, I still do a bit of PP even when shooting JPG but my baselines are good start that I don't need to recover or improve much and of course only to my liking and preference. I am a simple and basic amateur using manual settings 90% of the time. I mostly vary only three variables - ISO, aperture and shutter speed (WB is basic manual - sunny for sunny condition, cloudy for cloudy, shade under shade, flash for flash). Control of light is mostly done with shutter adjustment once I set the baselines.

RAW isn't just for exposure. And for difficult scenes, getting the exposure right can take longer than shooting and processing RAW.

<gil> I have no problem with that but yes, tough conditions requires lots of fun  experimentation and setup but I don't mind because it gives me a lot of time to analyze in the field what works ok and what does not work ok. I would rather have fun outside than inside :-D. After some 8 years of doing those fun stuff on the subjects I do, I mostly have a good feel on what usable settings I could use. Yes, I tinkered a bit with RAW long time ago and it just didn't suit my style as I want to do all those pull/push/recovery/etc. while in the field. I do photography for fun and nothing else.

It kind of kills me when people suggest the are so good they get exposure, WB, contrast, and sharpness right on every photo, but have no interest in using RAW.

Why it bothers you when some says they get good enough stuff when not using RAW? Your standard may not be the same as others. I may have a lower image standard than yours and thus a lower satisfaction level. What I am saying was that I am satisfied and happy that I could get the results I want by trying to improve my exposure as best as I can from JPG that maybe I need only a bit PP and not the whole capability from RAW. I might not be able to pull out some critical details and highlight but if I am satisfied with my image and composition overall, that is all that matters. If maybe you have seen some of my non-PP JPG shots, you might say those are just snaps and amateurish but to me, those are good enough.

gil wrote:

have any problem with others finding satisfaction with RAW :-D. De gustibus non est disputandum - of likes and dislikes, there should be no disputing - live and let live.

cheers,

gil

-- hide signature --

Cheers, gil - San Jose, CA Cheap Lens, JPG and 100% Handholding Provocateur Like happiness, photography is often better created than pursued.

-- hide signature --

Cheers, gil - San Jose, CA Cheap Lens, JPG and 100% Handholding Provocateur Like happiness, photography is often better created than pursued.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
gil
gil
Forum ProPosts: 16,560
Like?
I agree 100% on why some needs to push on something that other doesn't ...(more)
In reply to sybersitizen, Nov 10, 2012

need. To me, it is a sign of photographic inferiority complex. If one is at peace on what he is doing photographically whether from RAW or JPG, there is no need to impose one's preference to others. If there re lessons to be gathered from one's experience, they could express it as a tip or insight or plain share it but in a nice way so that it won't create animosity.

cheers,

gil

-- hide signature --

Cheers, gil - San Jose, CA Cheap Lens, JPG and 100% Handholding Provocateur Like happiness, photography is often better created than pursued.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
gil
gil
Forum ProPosts: 16,560
Like?
I do take meaningless snaps and I could see you do too :=) (nt)
In reply to marike6, Nov 10, 2012
-- hide signature --

Cheers, gil - San Jose, CA Cheap Lens, JPG and 100% Handholding Provocateur Like happiness, photography is often better created than pursued.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
moimoi
Senior MemberPosts: 3,019
Like?
Re: Why do you want people to change if they are happy on what they are...(more)
In reply to gil, Nov 10, 2012

gil wrote:

doing? You think you have a superior process than what others are using? I am happy with what I use and it is not RAW. I am not asking you or others to convince me otherwise as I am just giving another insight on why some like me would just stick it out with JPG to balance out why some wants it in RAW. If you are happy with RAW, so be it but don't keep on repeating the mantra that it is applicable to all.

As long as it makes you happy shooting jpg, that's all matters.

Cheers,

moimoi

cheers,

gil

-- hide signature --

Cheers, gil - San Jose, CA Cheap Lens, JPG and 100% Handholding Provocateur Like happiness, photography is often better created than pursued.

-- hide signature --

All harsh, impolite and/or unreasonable replies will be simply ignored.
Measurebators are out of my world, photography is not about babbling behind a computer... but rather being out of your home, shoot and share photographs with other people. Shoot and Share...Thanks.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dennismullen
Veteran MemberPosts: 8,720
Like?
Re: RAW isn't just for exposure
In reply to gil, Nov 10, 2012

I think they should eliminate all taxes for people who make more than $250,000. They will be more inclined to create businesses and then they will hire more people which will improve the economy and we will all be rich!

Cheers,

-- hide signature --

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin.
You can see larger versions of my pictures at www.dennismullen.com.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads