Watermarks is a way of cheating.

Started Nov 8, 2012 | Discussions
CG33
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Watermarks is a way of cheating.
Nov 8, 2012

I know it is not against this challenge rules, but showing a name or watermark is the best and cleanest way of cheating. especially when the host allows it. Don't you think?

Please post your comments.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=677387&View=Results&Rows=4

Victor Engel
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to CG33, Nov 8, 2012

What is your point? What cheating is going on here?

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CG33
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to Victor Engel, Nov 8, 2012

On an ANONYMOUS challenge, showing the name of the participant breaks the anonymity.

That is very unethical. That is C H E A T I N G, especially when you have family and friends that can help you with the 5.0 stars.

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Slynky
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to CG33, Nov 8, 2012

CG33 wrote:

On an ANONYMOUS challenge, showing the name of the participant breaks the anonymity.

That is very unethical. That is C H E A T I N G, especially when you have family and friends that can help you with the 5.0 stars.

It would seem to be the case. Given that it isn't more clearly stated by DPR (more like it is inferred), it's why I specifically prohibited it in the challenges I ran just to be clear.

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Victor Engel
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to CG33, Nov 8, 2012

CG33 wrote:

On an ANONYMOUS challenge, showing the name of the participant breaks the anonymity.

I don't see where this challenge is an anonymous challenge.

That is very unethical. That is C H E A T I N G, especially when you have family and friends that can help you with the 5.0 stars.

And they wouldn't be able to help without the watermark? The submitter is clearly visible for this entry. It would be visible with or without a watermark. The submitter could email his friends/relatives a small photo of the picture with no watermark. Who needs a watermark to identify a picture when you have a thumbnail?

I must be missing something.

Oh, finally, back when the Canon DSLR challenge was still ongoing, for a significant number of the regulars, it was usually possible to tell which pictures were shot by whom, just because they had developed a distinctive style.

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CG33
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to Victor Engel, Nov 8, 2012

I think you are not missing anything, you are just plying "smart guy".

From your point of view these challenges are not anonymous.

Then, it does not make any sense, any sense at all, to hide the participant names on the data of each picture during voting time.

Don't you think?

By the way, I doubt that any of the participants (you included) can differentiate my pictures from the rest of the bunch without looking at them first.

That can be done in a small group of selected of photographers, but not here, where thousands of photographers and non-photographers show their stuff.



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Slynky
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to Victor Engel, Nov 8, 2012

Victor Engel wrote:

CG33 wrote:

On an ANONYMOUS challenge, showing the name of the participant breaks the anonymity.

I don't see where this challenge is an anonymous challenge.

That is very unethical. That is C H E A T I N G, especially when you have family and friends that can help you with the 5.0 stars.

And they wouldn't be able to help without the watermark? The submitter is clearly visible for this entry. It would be visible with or without a watermark. The submitter could email his friends/relatives a small photo of the picture with no watermark. Who needs a watermark to identify a picture when you have a thumbnail?

I must be missing something.

Oh, finally, back when the Canon DSLR challenge was still ongoing, for a significant number of the regulars, it was usually possible to tell which pictures were shot by whom, just because they had developed a distinctive style.

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The submitter is only visible AFTER voting has completed. Before that, it's not known--unless the person watermarks it or somehow "autographs" it or attaches a copyright.

So, to clarify, yes, you are missing something. I see you've voted, so you must have forgotten.

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boar
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to CG33, Nov 8, 2012

I perfectly agree with you... Apart in DPR, in every challenges in which I took part,the most important thing was the anonymity (in order to avoid fraud during the voting).

Watermarks,for me,should not be allowed (even if,unfortunately,there are a lot of other methods to manipulate the voting)

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ConanFuji
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to CG33, Nov 8, 2012

CG33 wrote:

I know it is not against this challenge rules, but showing a name or watermark is the best and cleanest way of cheating. especially when the host allows it. Don't you think?

Please post your comments.

http://www.dpreview.com/challenges/Entry.aspx?ID=677387&View=Results&Rows=4

If I watermark my entries with my name, it's not cheating...

It's called voting suicide!

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Victor Engel
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to Slynky, Nov 8, 2012

Slynky wrote:

Victor Engel wrote:

CG33 wrote:

On an ANONYMOUS challenge, showing the name of the participant breaks the anonymity.

I don't see where this challenge is an anonymous challenge.

That is very unethical. That is C H E A T I N G, especially when you have family and friends that can help you with the 5.0 stars.

And they wouldn't be able to help without the watermark? The submitter is clearly visible for this entry. It would be visible with or without a watermark. The submitter could email his friends/relatives a small photo of the picture with no watermark. Who needs a watermark to identify a picture when you have a thumbnail?

I must be missing something.

Oh, finally, back when the Canon DSLR challenge was still ongoing, for a significant number of the regulars, it was usually possible to tell which pictures were shot by whom, just because they had developed a distinctive style.

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Victor Engel
http://victorspictures.com/blog
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The submitter is only visible AFTER voting has completed. Before that, it's not known--unless the person watermarks it or somehow "autographs" it or attaches a copyright.

So, to clarify, yes, you are missing something. I see you've voted, so you must have forgotten.

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--
/A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to their country for an amount of "up to and including my life"./
(...from the generation that still uses capital letters and punctuation...)

I can't forget that which I didn't learn. When I voted, I took pains to make sure the pictures were full frame Before I started voting.

one final comment. The watermark on this particular photo doesn't identify the photographer directly. It is just a URL. A viewer would have to either know the URL or type it in to make use of it.

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RaptorUK
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to CG33, Nov 8, 2012

CG33 wrote:

I know it is not against this challenge rules,

So it isn't CHEAting . . .   sorry but it is very, very simple.  It's also not against the DPReview Challenge rules . . .  but then nothing is because there aren't any DPReview Challenge rules . . . except for the Ts & Cs and according to Scott they are meaningless and can be ignored.

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Slynky
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to RaptorUK, Nov 8, 2012

RaptorUK wrote:

CG33 wrote:

I know it is not against this challenge rules,

So it isn't CHEAting . . . sorry but it is very, very simple. It's also not against the DPReview Challenge rules . . . but then nothing is because there aren't any DPReview Challenge rules . . . except for the Ts & Cs and according to Scott they are meaningless and can be ignored.

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The very reason I said it's inferred/implied. Given the fact that DPR keeps the submitter(s) anonymous during the submission and voting stages, it's implied that anonymity is a requirement and desired condition of the challenge. Once again, DPR doesn't come right out and say it but infers it.

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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to Victor Engel, Nov 8, 2012

Since it seems that the competitive aspect of Challenges requires very precise rules to keep entries within the intended frames of particular Challenges, it is quite usual for the entrants to notice when something has not been specifically forbidden. If watermarks and/or other means of image identifying is not explicitly forbidden, it can then be regarded as allowed, right?

So in order to accept anonymous entries, this should be specified in a separate rule, carefully worded, in order to avoid misunderstandings. This, then, has to be controlled (by the host), and enforced (by DQ).

As to whether it is ethical to enter images with identifiable origin in anonymous competitions, that's another question. In all cases the outcome depends upon host's decision.

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RaptorUK
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to Slynky, Nov 8, 2012

Slynky wrote:

RaptorUK wrote:

CG33 wrote:

I know it is not against this challenge rules,

So it isn't CHEAting . . . sorry but it is very, very simple. It's also not against the DPReview Challenge rules . . . but then nothing is because there aren't any DPReview Challenge rules . . . except for the Ts & Cs and according to Scott they are meaningless and can be ignored.

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The very reason I said it's inferred/implied. Given the fact that DPR keeps the submitter(s) anonymous during the submission and voting stages, it's implied that anonymity is a requirement and desired condition of the challenge. Once again, DPR doesn't come right out and say it but infers it.

It is inferred,  I agree,  I have had the very same discussing with ConanFuji . . .  but running Challenges based on inference is not a good place to be at,  not for the Entrant, not for the Host and not for DPReview . . .   and what it means is that at the end of the day the benefit of doubt has to be given to the Entrant.

If something is made explicit there is no wriggle room and there is clarity for all to benefit from.

I know it would take thousands of Man hours and probably millions of $s to add some general DPReview Challenge rules . . .  but I think it just might be worth doing  

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Victor Engel
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to Slynky, Nov 8, 2012

Slynky wrote:

RaptorUK wrote:

CG33 wrote:

I know it is not against this challenge rules,

So it isn't CHEAting . . . sorry but it is very, very simple. It's also not against the DPReview Challenge rules . . . but then nothing is because there aren't any DPReview Challenge rules . . . except for the Ts & Cs and according to Scott they are meaningless and can be ignored.

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Take a look at my album . . . www.F1Album.com

The very reason I said it's inferred/implied. Given the fact that DPR keeps the submitter(s) anonymous during the submission and voting stages, it's implied that anonymity is a requirement and desired condition of the challenge. Once again, DPR doesn't come right out and say it but infers it.

-- hide signature --

/A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to their country for an amount of "up to and including my life"./
(...from the generation that still uses capital letters and punctuation...)

We're that the case, then comments would not be allowed, but they are.

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RaptorUK
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to Victor Engel, Nov 8, 2012

Victor Engel wrote:

Slynky wrote:

RaptorUK wrote:

CG33 wrote:

I know it is not against this challenge rules,

So it isn't CHEAting . . . sorry but it is very, very simple. It's also not against the DPReview Challenge rules . . . but then nothing is because there aren't any DPReview Challenge rules . . . except for the Ts & Cs and according to Scott they are meaningless and can be ignored.

-- hide signature --

Take a look at my album . . . www.F1Album.com

The very reason I said it's inferred/implied. Given the fact that DPR keeps the submitter(s) anonymous during the submission and voting stages, it's implied that anonymity is a requirement and desired condition of the challenge. Once again, DPR doesn't come right out and say it but infers it.

-- hide signature --

/A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to their country for an amount of "up to and including my life"./
(...from the generation that still uses capital letters and punctuation...)

We're that the case, then comments would not be allowed, but they are.

It is most certainly is the case . . .  at one time the Camera details were shown before voting,  I think they were removed to try and prevent people voting by brand . . .  I don't know if this was also the case with Entrants IDs or if they were always hidden.

Comments are mostly posted by people other than the Entrant,  in an ideal world comments would be allowed but not shown until after voting is complete.

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barb_s
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to RaptorUK, Nov 8, 2012

Agree,  but I think DPR does not want to have generic rules that it can't enforce when photo's are uploaded, so I don't think they'll even state no watermarks. I do wish they would hide comments though. sometimes people reply and give away who they are but don't realize it.

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RaptorUK
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Re: Watermarks is a way of cheating.
In reply to barb_s, Nov 8, 2012

barb_s wrote:

Agree, but I think DPR does not want to have generic rules that it can't enforce when photo's are uploaded, so I don't think they'll even state no watermarks. I do wish they would hide comments though. sometimes people reply and give away who they are but don't realize it.

DPR wouldn't need to enforce Generic rules,  that could be done by the Host and other DPR members via the Complain button.

DPR need to give Hosts the tools,   and part of the tool kit includes generic rules.

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pixelless
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Some of us just don´t care about the "competition" side of challenges.
In reply to RaptorUK, Nov 20, 2012

I´ve entered a couple challenges in the past, and just recently entered another one after a long period. I didn´t see anything on the rules about watermarks, so I entered a photo that has one. It´s just my normal workflow and I didn´t even think about the "cheating" thing. Hell, I don´t think any of my friends and family even know (or care!) that I visit this forum! Besides, I only enter challenges to see how others percieve my photos... nothing else.

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Victor Engel
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Re: Some of us just don´t care about the "competition" side of challenges.
In reply to pixelless, Nov 20, 2012

Exactly. Before the challenges even existed here, they were on pbase. The purpose of the challenges on pbase (at least the ones I participated in) was mainly to learn from each other. Comments on the photos was a huge beneficial part of the process. Sometimes a picture would be modified and re-submitted to the challenge in response to the posted comments. This is the way it should be, in my opinion.

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