Improving on the vibrations of the focal plane shutter

Started Nov 7, 2012 | Discussions
PeterZheng
Regular MemberPosts: 315
Like?
Improving on the vibrations of the focal plane shutter
Nov 7, 2012

Improving on the vibrations of the focal plane shutter

The recent digital camera is higher pixels, so people get bothering about the camera vibrations. The traditional focal plane shutter's running method have long been existing the shutter blades's bounce vibrations, it makes a camera got lesser or worse image-blurring. It is a second vibrational source in a camera's internal, a wider angle harm, even a mirror lockup mode still not avoided the problem.

Very helplessly, we were compelled to be carrying a very heavy tripod, even a heavier weight, since that is the internal vibrations of the camera body, and is a more shorter pixel pitch. "In outdoors shooting, with a very heavy tripod becomes much more penance, would no longer be interesting."

Fundamentally, the camera manufacturer needed to further improve on the camera vibrations very much lower.

Coming into higher pixels (a smaller pixel pitch), the problem to be aggravated. In currently, Nikon has already employing a 3.8μm sensor in the APS-c cameras, it not merely the d800 and the d7000 have the 4.8μm sensors. The 100 MP 35mm format sensor is being developing.

I expect Nikon camera R&D division could see the post here.
If you who can tell Nikon, people will thank you very much.

Thanks for participation in

Read related,
In Nikon D800e validated the vibrations and the tripods, Oct 2012
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3291854
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

Downloadable PDF file for a registered member, the file is not free. (Japanese), published in 2009,
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/HONSHI/20090427/169454
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20090410/168625
Chinese translated copy, a simply introduction, it including some charts and explanation.
http://china.nikkeibp.com.cn/news/digi/45608-20090413.html
English copy was cut down the charts and explanation. They writen English camera "shake" that is actually "vibration", the shutter bounce or mirror slap to activate up the forced damped oscillation (vibration).
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20090413/168663
http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/f2/effect-camera-vibration-resolution-48296.html

LumoLabs measured the image-blurring was based on wide angle lens. In actually using, a lighter weight telephoto lens will be more headachy.
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3283427

Thanks for participation in

Nikon D7000 Nikon D800 Nikon D800E
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
PeterZheng
Regular MemberPosts: 315
Like?
Re: Improving on the vibrations of the focal plane shutter
In reply to PeterZheng, Nov 7, 2012
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Forum ProPosts: 15,374
Like?
no effect
In reply to PeterZheng, Nov 7, 2012

Interesting but I have not seen any indication that Shutter Vibrations is affecting my picture sharpness in a way that is noticeable. I can see the affects of Mirror slap and can remove that with the use of MLU mode. The results are a very very sharp picture. I don't see how lessening shutter vibration can make the picture any sharper to the point that it would even be noticeable in large print. I'm sure shutter vibration exists, I just don't see how it affects my output. Do you have any examples of this being a actually noticeable problem in normal shooting from 16mm to 400mm focal length?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PeterZheng
Regular MemberPosts: 315
Like?
Re: no effect? it is impossible to be no effect
In reply to Mako2011, Nov 7, 2012

Mako2011 wrote:

Do you have any examples of this being a actually noticeable problem?

it is here, a careful measurement. Not merely to shoot some pictures.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3291854
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

other careful measurements, published in 2010:

LumoLabs measured the image-blurring was based on wide angle lens. In actually using, a lighter weight telephoto lens will be more headachy.
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

Read more,

Downloadable PDF file for a registered member, the file is not free. (Japanese), published in 2009,
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/HONSHI/20090427/169454/
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20090410/168625/
Chinese translated copy, a simply introduction, it including some charts and explanation.
http://china.nikkeibp.com.cn/news/digi/45608-20090413.html
English copy was cut down the charts and explanation. They writen English camera "shake" that is actually "vibration", the shutter bounce or mirror slap to activate up the forced damped oscillation (vibration).
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20090413/168663
http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/f2/effect-camera-vibration-resolution-48296.html

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3283427

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Forum ProPosts: 15,374
Like?
Not seen and proof
In reply to PeterZheng, Nov 7, 2012

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Do you have any examples of this being a actually noticeable problem?

it is here, a careful measurement. Not merely to shoot some pictures.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3291854
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

Measured but not determinable in any photo I take so no need to reduce

other careful measurements, published in 2010:

LumoLabs measured the image-blurring was based on wide angle lens. In actually using, a lighter weight telephoto lens will be more headachy.
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

Measured but if I can't detect it in any photo I take then no need to worry about it.


As I said, the effect certainly exists. But if the effect can't be seen in normal pictures that I print or produce....then the effect has no need to be mitigated or reduced. The effect of Mirror Slap can be seen in my photos so I reduce it when needed. The effect of shutter vibration is not noticeable, as far as I have seen. That's why I say it has no "noticeable" effect on my photography.

Vibrations from an earth quake in China can be measured and affect my tripod when taking a photograph in Canada....but if I can't see that effect in my photograph...I don't worry about it.

Proof:  There are a number of camera out there with electronic shutters so no shutter vibration.  To date, their picture are not noticeably sharper than the ones I take with a camera that has a mechanical shutter.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PeterZheng
Regular MemberPosts: 315
Like?
Re: Not seen and proof --- That is merely with you oneself
In reply to Mako2011, Nov 7, 2012

Mako2011 wrote:

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Do you have any examples of this being a actually noticeable problem?

it is here, a careful measurement. Not merely to shoot some pictures.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3291854
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

Measured but not determinable in any photo I take so no need to reduce

other careful measurements, published in 2010:

LumoLabs measured the image-blurring was based on wide angle lens. In actually using, a lighter weight telephoto lens will be more headachy.
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

Measured but if I can't detect it in any photo I take then no need to worry about it.

I believe that you can also say the mirror vibrations to be no effect with you, so that is no need to reduce, no need to worry about it.

With your one's shot to defeat all of the careful measurements.

However, Others:
http://www.moosepeterson.com/blog/2012/06/22/the-d800-mass/

As I said, the effect certainly exists. But if the effect can't be seen in normal pictures that I print or produce....then the effect has no need to be mitigated or reduced. The effect of Mirror Slap can be seen in my photos so I reduce it when needed. The effect of shutter vibration is not noticeable, as far as I have seen. That's why I say it has no "noticeable" effect on my photography.

Vibrations from an earth quake in China can be measured and affect my tripod when taking a photograph in Canada....but if I can't see that effect in my photograph...I don't worry about it.

big words and self-contradictory

Proof: There are a number of camera out there with electronic shutters so no shutter vibration. To date, their picture are not noticeably sharper than the ones I take with a camera that has a mechanical shutter.

This is totally unrelated.
Please tell me, you did a comparison with the same size sensor?

I believe that you must not want Nikon to be doing better, no else.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Forum ProPosts: 15,374
Like?
You can see Mirror Slap
In reply to PeterZheng, Nov 7, 2012

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Do you have any examples of this being a actually noticeable problem?

it is here, a careful measurement. Not merely to shoot some pictures.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3291854
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

Measured but not determinable in any photo I take so no need to reduce

other careful measurements, published in 2010:

LumoLabs measured the image-blurring was based on wide angle lens. In actually using, a lighter weight telephoto lens will be more headachy.
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

Measured but if I can't detect it in any photo I take then no need to worry about it.

I believe that you can also say the mirror vibrations to be no effect with you, so that is no need to reduce, no need to worry about it.

But I can easily see the effects of Mirror Slap in photos.

As you can see...the effects of Mirror Slap are easily noticed and then mitigated.

Not so, I think, with the effects of Shutter Vibration.  I could certainly be wrong. I was hoping you might have photographic examples to demonstrate the Shutter Vibration effect in pictures. I don't think I have ever seen it

Proof: There are a number of camera out there with electronic shutters so no shutter vibration. To date, their picture are not noticeably sharper than the ones I take with a camera that has a mechanical shutter.

This is totally unrelated.

How so? Have you compared two pics....one with normal Shutter Vibration and one without. It would be very easy to do with any camera and use of long exposure vs short exposure and artificial lighting.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PeterZheng
Regular MemberPosts: 315
Like?
Re: You can see Shutter Vibration blur
In reply to Mako2011, Nov 7, 2012

Mako2011 wrote:

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Do you have any examples of this being a actually noticeable problem?

it is here, a careful measurement. Not merely to shoot some pictures.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3291854
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

Measured but not determinable in any photo I take so no need to reduce

other careful measurements, published in 2010:

LumoLabs measured the image-blurring was based on wide angle lens. In actually using, a lighter weight telephoto lens will be more headachy.
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

Measured but if I can't detect it in any photo I take then no need to worry about it.

I believe that you can also say the mirror vibrations to be no effect with you, so that is no need to reduce, no need to worry about it.

But I can easily see the effects of Mirror Slap in photos.

As you can see...the effects of Mirror Slap are easily noticed and then mitigated.

Not so, I think, with the effects of Shutter Vibration. I could certainly be wrong. I was hoping you might have photographic examples to demonstrate the Shutter Vibration effect in pictures. I don't think I have ever seen it

You can see Shutter Vibration blur.

I could certainly be wrong with you oneself.

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

In this testing, the shooting and preview more than 1,000 images. This is much more time than one month in the arduous working to organize the images and data to bring the valuable harvest for readers.

Experimental Methods
The target is with a 1.2mm pinhole light spot placed the optical axis. The shoot distance 6m, the 200mm focal length is about 8.2 pixels at the pinhole light spot imaged of the theoretical value. For the 70mm focal length, setting of the distance 2.1m and is about 8.2 pixels imaged to be same as the 200mm.

However, the actual imaging might be quantized interval in 9-10 pixels some diffraction from the camera system and the pinhole light spot.
I determined to get it seems a "non vibration blur image" as a reference data can compare with the other images, and then firstly taken a 1/500 sec image, said by experimenter Umemoto.
The Nikon d800e is fixed on a weight 1,000 kg machine tool platform, the fixture tool is tailor-made, the ferroconcrete is the machine tool beneath. Here is firstly taken a 1/500 sec image.

Camera Body -- Nikon d800e.
Lenses -- Nikkor 70-200mm F2.8 G VR II, Nikkor 24-70mm F2.8 G ED.

Testing Tripods:
G1228 M2 (Strengthened by Umemoto), Weight 1,580g, 4-Section type 2, Height 132cm (non raising the center column), selling in 2004, the strength is comparable to currently Gitzo type 3.
G1128 M2 (Strengthened by Umemoto), Weight 1,190g, 4-Section type 1, Height 117cm (non raising the center column), selling in 2005, the strength is comparable to currently Gitzo type 2.
G1543T, Weight 950g, 4-Section type 1, Height 116cm (non raising the center column), the kit GK1580TQR4 tripodal legs equal to currently GT1544T.

Tripod Heads:
SL-60AZD (large), 440g + SG-80 160g = 600g wt.
SL-50AZD (medium), 290g + SG-80 160g = 450g wt.
SL-40AZD (small), 195g + SG-80 160g = 355g wt.
* Quick shoe SG-80. **All the testing Tripod Heads made by Umemoto.

Hanging Extra Mass in Tripods:
All the testing tripods are already hanging with an additional mass on the hook, here is an extra mass wt 5kg for the 70-200mm lens, an extra mass wt 2.5kg for the 24-70mm lens.

The G1228 and the G1128 tripods were strengthened, working by Umemoto.
The testing room is with ferroconcrete ground, no wind around the tripods. All the tripods the center column in a minimal height locked.

The testing shutter speed 1/500sec gradually drops off till 1 sec.
The lens aperture fixed f8, the lighting source is adjustable. The camera ISO could be adjusted, if needed.
The every a shutter speed to shoot ten times to a set of pictures.
The images magnified with 400% on a screen and identification.
In the camera disabled the VR, and the mirror locked upward every time a shooting, the remote device fires camera, the grip accessory was removed, without an external flash.

* The original text has a lot words writing what about a way to a tripod placed in a maximized rigidity. Here is omitted.

The measured results
Test 1: Lens 70-200mm + G1228 MK2 (Strengthened) + SL-60AZD, a tripod system weight 2,180g. Extra Mass 5kg.
Shooting with the horizontal position,
From 1/500 sec till 1 sec, all the images are close to circular 9 pixels, thus the image-blurring is almost negligible. But the blur below 0.5 pixels was observed from the vertical direction vibration in 1/30 sec.

Shooting with vertical position,
From 1/500 to 1/125 sec that blur is very little.
In 1/60 sec, the blur 0.5 pixels. (the vibrations direction in vertical-run focal plane shutter) .
In 1/30 -1/15 sec, the blur 0.7 pixels. (vertical-run focal plane shutter).
In 1/8 - 1/2 sec, the blur 1 pixel.
In 1 sec, the blur 1.5 pixels.

Test 2: Lens 70-200mm + G1228 MK2 (Strengthened) + SL-50AZD, a tripod system weight 2,030g. Extra Mass 5kg.
Shooting with the horizontal position,
1/500 - 1/250 sec, the blur is very little.
1/125 - 1/15 sec, the blur about 0.5 pixels along the right diagonal direction.
1/8 - 1 sec, the blur 0.5 pixels.

Shooting with vertical position,
1/500 - 1/250 sec, feeling the slightly soft, maybe the blur less than 0.5 px?
1/125 sec, the blur about 0.5 pixels along the right diagonal direction.
1/60 - 1/30 sec, the blur about 1.0 pixels along the right diagonal direction.
1/15 - 1/4 sec, the blur about 1.0 - 2.0 pixels along the right diagonal direction.
1/2 - 1 sec, the blur about 1.0 - 2.0 pixels.

Test 3: Lens 70-200mm + G1128 MK2 (Strengthened) + SL-60AZD, a tripod system weight 1,790g. Extra Mass 5kg.
Shooting with the horizontal position,
1/500 - 1/250 sec, the blur is still little.
1/125 - 1/15 sec, the imaging good rate is bad, the image-blurring rate up to 50%, the blur is 0.5 - 1.0 pixels along the right diagonal direction.
1/8 - 1 sec, feeling all the images are softened, (sharpness lessened). Also, about 0.5 pixels randomly blurring.

Shooting with vertical position,
1/500 - 1/250 sec, does not much matter.
1/125 - 1/60 sec, the blur images rate 50% about 0.5 pixels. Main blur is direction with vertical-run focal plane shutter
1/30 - 1 sec, the blur about 1.0 - 1.5 pixels.

Reader's Remarks,
In 1/250 - 1/30 sec, the blur related to the shutter bounce vibrations. But 1/60 - 1 sec the blurring aggravated, so a longer exposure time has revealing the activated tripod shaking would increase the negative effects and camera together, but the activation of the tripod shaking came from the shutter bounce vibration.
Fundamentally, the camera body further needed with very much lower of the vibrations in the shutter system, or is even a Zero vibration.
In testing the d800e mirror locked up a shooting, while in the mirror slap blur is mainly harmful on a shutter speed below the 1/50s.

Proof: There are a number of camera out there with electronic shutters so no shutter vibration. To date, their picture are not noticeably sharper than the ones I take with a camera that has a mechanical shutter.

This is totally unrelated.

How so? Have you compared two pics....one with normal Shutter Vibration and one without. It would be very easy to do with any camera and use of long exposure vs short exposure and artificial lighting.

This is totally unrelated. again.

I could certainly be wrong with you oneself.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PeterZheng
Regular MemberPosts: 315
Like?
Re: You can see Mirror Slap
In reply to Mako2011, Nov 7, 2012
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Forum ProPosts: 15,374
Like?
Not normally seen
In reply to PeterZheng, Nov 7, 2012

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

But I can easily see the effects of Mirror Slap in photos.

As you can see...the effects of Mirror Slap are easily noticed and then mitigated.

Not so, I think, with the effects of Shutter Vibration. I could certainly be wrong. I was hoping you might have photographic examples to demonstrate the Shutter Vibration effect in pictures. I don't think I have ever seen it

You can see Shutter Vibration blur.

I could certainly be wrong with you oneself.

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

In this testing, the shooting and preview more than 1,000 images. This is much more time than one month in the arduous working to organize the images and data to bring the valuable harvest for readers


I understand the data.  The issue is does it affect photography in a way that can be easily seen in the same way as Mirror slap can. Looking at the examples and data you linked...the answer is no. You must pixel peep at extremely high magnifications to see it so, at this time, it appears that shutter vibration is not a concern regards current photography in the same way Mirror Slap is. Compared to the effects of camera shake....the affects of shutter vibration are non-existent. Shutter vibration exists...but normally can't be seen except in unrealistic high magnification examples...... if I understand you testing correctly.

In other words....the effects of Shutter Vibration are not normally seen in real world photography.  Is that not correct?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Forum ProPosts: 15,374
Like?
No practical impact
In reply to PeterZheng, Nov 7, 2012

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako,

Please stop your bigotry.

Bigotry= a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

I stated that your data was excellent and that it showed well the effects of Shutter Vibration. I'm simply of the opinion that the effects of Shutter Vibration currently have no practical impact on modern DSLR photography. I was simply hoping for an example showing how shutter vibration would adversely affect a modern DSLR photograph at normal viewing magnification or even at extremes of 200% pixel peeping. In the future...we may indeed be concerned with it as we are today with camera shake or Mirror Slap. I also admit, I may be completely wrong and just haven't seen an example yet showing otherwise.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PeterZheng
Regular MemberPosts: 315
Like?
Re: Not normally seen
In reply to Mako2011, Nov 7, 2012

Mako2011 wrote:

PeterZheng wrote:

I could certainly be wrong with you oneself.

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

In this testing, the shooting and preview more than 1,000 images. This is much more time than one month in the arduous working to organize the images and data to bring the valuable harvest for readers


I understand the data. The issue is does it affect photography in a way that can be easily seen in the same way as Mirror slap can. Looking at the examples and data you linked...the answer is no. You must pixel peep at extremely high magnifications to see it so, at this time, it appears that shutter vibration is not a concern regards current photography in the same way Mirror Slap is. Compared to the effects of camera shake....the affects of shutter vibration are non-existent. Shutter vibration exists...but normally can't be seen except in unrealistic high magnification examples...... if I understand you testing correctly.

In other words....the effects of Shutter Vibration are not normally seen in real world photography. Is that not correct?

big words and so much self-contradictory, again

if you merely printed the image on an A4 size, the Mirror slap blur can also not be saw.
Ok, people bought an expensive 36MP or 24MP camera to merely print an A4 picture?

In other words, you merely needed a mini DC or cellphonecam, but not an expensively camera.

you do always not understand a testing correctly, --- since you are bigotry..

People bought the 36MP d800 needed to print the picture 50x40-inch and 70x40-inch.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Forum ProPosts: 15,374
Like?
Correct
In reply to PeterZheng, Nov 7, 2012

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

PeterZheng wrote:

I could certainly be wrong with you oneself.

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/review/item/20121022_565399.html

In this testing, the shooting and preview more than 1,000 images. This is much more time than one month in the arduous working to organize the images and data to bring the valuable harvest for readers


I understand the data. The issue is does it affect photography in a way that can be easily seen in the same way as Mirror slap can. Looking at the examples and data you linked...the answer is no. You must pixel peep at extremely high magnifications to see it so, at this time, it appears that shutter vibration is not a concern regards current photography in the same way Mirror Slap is. Compared to the effects of camera shake....the affects of shutter vibration are non-existent. Shutter vibration exists...but normally can't be seen except in unrealistic high magnification examples...... if I understand you testing correctly.

In other words....the effects of Shutter Vibration are not normally seen in real world photography. Is that not correct?

if you merely printed the image on an A4 size, the Mirror slap blur can also not be saw.

Correct, unless I step up and look closely. As far as I know, the same can not be said of Shutter Vibration as if I print at A4 and step up and look just as closely, that effect (Shutter Vibration) can still not be seen.  Is that not the case?

That is why I think we need not worry about it at this point except in very rare scientific situations. I'm simply trying to learn and understand more.  At what point in photography, does Shutter Vibration became something we need to control for? People have been printing huge D800e pics for a very long time without need to worry about it...is that not the case.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PeterZheng
Regular MemberPosts: 315
Like?
Re: In practical impact
In reply to Mako2011, Nov 7, 2012

Mako2011 wrote:

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako,

Please stop your bigotry.

Bigotry= a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

I stated that your data was excellent and that it showed well the effects of Shutter Vibration. I'm simply of the opinion that the effects of Shutter Vibration currently have no practical impact on modern DSLR photography. I was simply hoping for an example showing how shutter vibration would adversely affect a modern DSLR photograph at normal viewing magnification or even at extremes of 200% pixel peeping. In the future...we may indeed be concerned with it as we are today with camera shake or Mirror Slap. I also admit, I may be completely wrong and just haven't seen an example yet showing otherwise.

I'm sorry for my English writing.

I believe that you did not know about the shutter vibration and image-blurring, but you once give up subjectivism and opinionated, maybe you wake up to notice the problem.

Before much more years, I also only noticed the mirror slap, but overlooked the shutter vibration.

The shutter vibration would affect the imaging sharpness and soften the images, especially in a 3.8μm sensor and a 4.8μm sensors.

for a too bad situation is like this, Please carefully read

http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PeterZheng
Regular MemberPosts: 315
Like?
Re: it is needed,
In reply to Mako2011, Nov 7, 2012

Mako2011 wrote:

That is why I think we need not worry about it at this point except in very rare scientific situations. I'm simply trying to learn and understand more. At what point in photography, does Shutter Vibration became something we need to control for? People have been printing huge D800e pics for a very long time without need to worry about it...is that not the case.

it is needed,

1. Others:
http://www.moosepeterson.com/blog/2012/06/22/the-d800-mass/

2. I wanted a lighter weight tripod,

3. I wanted to avoid the soften images came from shutter vibrations, when using mirror lockup.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Forum ProPosts: 15,374
Like?
I agree with the article
In reply to PeterZheng, Nov 7, 2012

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako,

Please stop your bigotry.

Bigotry= a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

I stated that your data was excellent and that it showed well the effects of Shutter Vibration. I'm simply of the opinion that the effects of Shutter Vibration currently have no practical impact on modern DSLR photography. I was simply hoping for an example showing how shutter vibration would adversely affect a modern DSLR photograph at normal viewing magnification or even at extremes of 200% pixel peeping. In the future...we may indeed be concerned with it as we are today with camera shake or Mirror Slap. I also admit, I may be completely wrong and just haven't seen an example yet showing otherwise.

I'm sorry for my English writing.

No need to worry in that regard. I commend you on your ability. It shows much work and dedication. I would point out though that your use of the word "bigotry" is perhaps out of context and may not be the correct word your where looking for. Your use of it, in this case, might actually be considered derogatory in nature. I didn't think that was your intend so did not consider it in that context. Again, I commend you on your ability to communicate in two languages. I wish I could do the same as effectively.

I believe that you did not know about the shutter vibration and image-blurring, but you once give up subjectivism and opinionated, maybe you wake up to notice the problem.

I was indeed familiar with it and understood it fully. The data you linked made it even more clear and understandable. Remember, I'm not opinionated on the effect at all.  I have simply not seen any example of it being something that currently needs to be taken into account and eliminate in the same way that mirror slap does. Yes, there are perhaps examples of it, but in the vast majority of all photography output.....its effect can me ignored for all practical purposes.  As pixel density increases and or sensor size increases...that may change. Large format today may be concerned with it.  FF or smaller though and I think we need to be concerned in normal everyday shotgunning.

The shutter vibration would affect the imaging sharpness and soften the images, especially in a 3.8μm sensor and a 4.8μm sensors.

for a too bad situation is like this, Please carefully read

http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

I did, and still see no reason to worry about it in normal photography applications that we routinely see or produce.

As the author stated:   "The shutter-induced blur in the Pentax K-5 is measurable but it should be small enough to be of no concern in day to day photography"

I am simply agreeing with the authors conclusion and think it also applies to images produced with the D800e as well.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Forum ProPosts: 15,374
Like?
Edit....Not the same
In reply to PeterZheng, Nov 7, 2012

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

That is why I think we need not worry about it at this point except in very rare scientific situations. I'm simply trying to learn and understand more. At what point in photography, does Shutter Vibration became something we need to control for? People have been printing huge D800e pics for a very long time without need to worry about it...is that not the case.

it is needed,

1. Others:
http://www.moosepeterson.com/blog/2012/06/22/the-d800-mass/

2. I wanted a lighter weight tripod,

3. I wanted to avoid the soften images came from shutter vibrations, when using mirror lockup.

His problem was unrelated to shutter vibration but his panning technique and muscle memory.

As he said: "The problem wasn’t the camera, the lens the rig or technique, it was me"

Just a note ...Shutter speeds are 1/160s at f 14 in his examples.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PeterZheng
Regular MemberPosts: 315
Like?
Re: you did carefully read and understand,
In reply to Mako2011, Nov 7, 2012

Mako2011 wrote:

The shutter vibration would affect the imaging sharpness and soften the images, especially in a 3.8μm sensor and a 4.8μm sensors.

for a too bad situation is like this, Please carefully read

http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

I did, and still see no reason to worry about it in normal photography applications that we routinely see or produce.

As the author stated: "The shutter-induced blur in the Pentax K-5 is measurable but it should be small enough to be of no concern in day to day photography"

I am simply agreeing with the authors conclusion and think it also applies to images produced with the D800e as well.

you did not carefully read and understand,

Why did not read about the K-7?

Please notice, LumoLabs measured the image-blurring was based on wide angle lens. In actually using, a lighter weight telephoto lens will be more headachy.

The shutter bounce blur degree at Pentax k5 gets a little improving, but is still not as near as the k20d/k10d old models. LumoLabs told us as follows, (Falk Lumo is Pentax camera a famed lover, from a teenager in 1977 and with a Pentax MX. He is yet no categorical to criticize Pentax, so take notice this point ),
"the K-7 has significantly more total shutter blur, about an increase from about 1.45 pixels to 2.9 pixels, a difference of 1.45 px with slightly larger 5.0 µm pixels". (the k-7 the worst blur up to 4 px, far larger than 5.0 µm, in a wide angle lens).
"The K20D has around 0.2 pixels only, But blur widths don't add linearly. (Part of the K20D shutter blur is masked by the anti-alias (AA) filter). So, one way to put the result is that the K-5 is half way between the K20D and the K-7. All three cameras have a floating sensor shake reduction mechanism". (SR turned off in measuring)
"(k5) The absolute magnitude of the effect sits halfway in between a K20D which has almost no measurable effect and a K-7 which exhibits an effect large enough to make some people notice in their work."
"The matter may now have reached a satisfactory state with the K-5. But there remains work to be done for Pentax to fully understand and eliminate any unnecessary effects which compromise image sharpness." (LumoLabs/Dec 2010)

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PeterZheng
Regular MemberPosts: 315
Like?
Re: you are so incurable
In reply to Mako2011, Nov 7, 2012

Mako2011 wrote:

His problem was unrelated to shutter vibration but his panning technique and muscle memory.

As he said: "The problem wasn’t the camera, the lens the rig or technique, it was me"

you are so incurable

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mako2011
Forum ProPosts: 15,374
Like?
Yes I did
In reply to PeterZheng, Nov 7, 2012

PeterZheng wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

The shutter vibration would affect the imaging sharpness and soften the images, especially in a 3.8μm sensor and a 4.8μm sensors.

for a too bad situation is like this, Please carefully read

http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k7shutter/index.html
http://www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

I did, and still see no reason to worry about it in normal photography applications that we routinely see or produce.

As the author stated: "The shutter-induced blur in the Pentax K-5 is measurable but it should be small enough to be of no concern in day to day photography"

I am simply agreeing with the authors conclusion and think it also applies to images produced with the D800e as well.

you did not carefully read and understand...


"(k5) The absolute magnitude of the effect sits halfway in between a K20D which has almost no measurable effect and a K-7 which exhibits an effect large enough to make some people notice in their work."

I did read carefully and understood

And I still contend  ......"The shutter-induced blur ...... is measurable but it should be small enough to be of no concern in day to day photography"

This is where a good example of it in the K7 perhaps could indeed prove the contrary.  I simply have seen no example of it mattering in day to day DSLR photography to this point.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads