Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

Started Nov 4, 2012 | Discussions
jtoolman
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Re: I thought that IJC uses IS inks?
In reply to Petruska, Nov 5, 2012

Yes they do. What I was wondering was, I thought the OP was talking about IJF inks. Which only uses their MK from IS because of its supposed greter D-Max.

That's why I was asking about the magentas thinking they might be better than IS.

According to IJF their inks are specially formulated for them and their only CON was their MK not being deep enough. Thus the switch to IS MK.

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Vernon D Rainwater
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Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...
In reply to Vernon D Rainwater, Nov 5, 2012

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

Petruska wrote:

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

Petruska wrote:

in the printer and Jon Cone states this on his site, but with a 3880 using refillable carts and piggy-backing the OEM and reset chips I don't believe that you can mix OEM and Cone, or others, refillable cartridges. I'm not an expert with this on the 3880 as I don't have one.

Bob P.

Bob, I bought a set of the Cone 80 ml size re-fillable cartridges for my 3880. I have installed two of these (LLB and Yellow) by using the original OEM chip from the empty pulled OEM cartridges and the other cartridges are the original Epson OEM Cartridges. I use Inkjetcarts.com bulk inks for all my Epson printers (including the 3880) and (as mentioned in another post) the results are excellent and with no noticeable change (for better or for worse) and using the same Paper/Printer Profiles as used when using all OEM ink cartridges. I have printed around 40 photos ranging in size form 4 x 6 to 17 x 25 with this cartridge configuration. So far, all is working perfectly.....

My comments are correct, however; your comments may be relating to when using the Cone NON Pigment inks. I use only Pigment inks and don't need to print many (Proofs, etc) to where it would be a ($$$) benefit for that purpose.

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Vernon...

Using your example, if you were to replace the colors other than LLB and Yellow (leaving them as OEM because they are full) with refillable carts then the refillables with the replaced OEM chips won't work. That's what I was trying to clarify. You need the correct mix of OEM and refillable carts to work correctly.

My comments are the same for Cone Pigment or Dye inks...

Bob P.

Edited to add:

This Dpreview forum has completely dropped all the text message that was prepared with this post. Sometimes, I wonder what Fiasco in the Forums will be next. I wish I had first prepared the text message using one of my Editing software then copy/paste to the forum. However, why should that be necessary if some consistency and accuracy was present in maintaining the forums.

Certainly, My comments does not re-create the text message......

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Vernon...

Bob, I obviously do not understand your comments.  Are you saying that if I should pull two of the remaining OEM Cartridges (Example matte Black and Cyan) from the 3880, then pull the cartridge chips from these two cartridges and use with the corresponding matching Re-Loadable cartridge -- this will not work properly.

Also, what is meant by the comment  "You need the correct mix of OEM and refillable carts to work correctly."

During all my research and review I have never come across anything even resembling either of the above conditions regarding 'wont work".  Surely the Cone site would have any related information should this indeed be a conditional concern.  If they do, I certainly did not find it.

Where did you find such information.  A reference would be helpful.

In my "incomplete" previous post, I sent a screen copy of the Ink levels.  I know the two refillable cartridges do not accurately represent the status -- since visual ink monitoring for the re-fillable cartridges is required.

Bob, I will appreciate you helping me to understand what you have posted regarding this.

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Vernon...

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Petruska
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Vernon, what browser are you using....
In reply to Vernon D Rainwater, Nov 5, 2012

Firefox looks stable, IE is not.

Bob P.

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Petruska
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Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...
In reply to Vernon D Rainwater, Nov 5, 2012

What I'm saying is that if you have OEM LLB aand Yellow cartridges installed and the others were refillables with the transferred OEM chips (which I understand must be removed before they show empty), I can't see how the system can work without the piggy-backed controller chips applied to the LLB and Yellow. when those refillables carts go to empty.

Again I'm not the expert with a 3800/3880, Jtoolmand and Ivr Wiener have played a lot with these piggy-back chip setups, and there are different schemes from various suppliers  I run a R3000 and R2880 and they are extremely easy to refill and reset.

Bob P.

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Vernon D Rainwater
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Re: Vernon, what browser are you using....
In reply to Petruska, Nov 5, 2012

Petruska wrote:

Firefox looks stable, IE is not.

Bob P.

Using IE8.  I read comments from the Dpreview (main individual) regarding taking care of support for any IEn issues.  I failed to mention that this is the first issue (in the past couple weeks) regarding this.  I had some issues shortly after they changed to this different Dpreview setup and (at that time) and for a while, I prepared ALL messages using either MS Word or Wordpad and saved the file -- then copy/paste to the forum post area.

Being an OLD Timer in computers and having programmed in more than a dozen Programming Languages (primarily Main Frame Computers but also for PC's) that part of the issue is in their "expedited" efforts to implement needed things that is called to their attention that some of the later changes are causing issues (errors) in existing coding modules.  Hopefully they are using more of a Modular approach that should contribute to less "NON intended changes".

I will have to "wait and see" if Dpreview support takes care of this or if other options will be necessary.  This (so far) is the only site where I have such issues.

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Vernon...

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jtoolman
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Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...
In reply to Vernon D Rainwater, Nov 5, 2012

OK.

Earlier cart versions, requiring each of the OEM chips, fell intro two categories.

One would allow you to sitch to refillable carts as each of your OEM reached empty.

So if yellow went out first, you would take the yellow chip and place it under the yellow controller chip. You would then reinsert that yellow cart and if the inks were a good enough match, you would go on printing without having to make any chages ti your printing routine.

The second type would again need all of your original chips under the controller chips BUT you needed to install them all as a complete set.

Even earlier types would only use two controller chips for two colors and the remaining ones needed just the oem chip with one of the chip terminals taped over. This was also done on the Maintenance Cart chip. Resetting involved a convoluted method.

CONE carts require all the chips, but the chips will reset to full when disconnected from power.

Inkjetfly 3800 and 3880 carts only use the MK and PK chips. The rest of the controller chips do not even have the spring loaded contacts. How do these work is a total mystery to me and I frankly do not care. They work and work very well.

SUpposedly the Carts from IJF are the same as those sold by CONE, except for the chip system.

They, as well as the maintenace cart remain FULL at all times.

Who knows what the next improvement will bring us.

Remember to harvest any ink left from those OEM carts.

Joe

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Vernon D Rainwater
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Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...
In reply to Petruska, Nov 5, 2012

Petruska wrote:

What I'm saying is that if you have OEM LLB aand Yellow cartridges installed and the others were refillables with the transferred OEM chips (which I understand must be removed before they show empty), I can't see how the system can work without the piggy-backed controller chips applied to the LLB and Yellow. when those refillables carts go to empty.

Again I'm not the expert with a 3800/3880, Jtoolmand and Ivr Wiener have played a lot with these piggy-back chip setups, and there are different schemes from various suppliers I run a R3000 and R2880 and they are extremely easy to refill and reset.

Bob P.

Bob, ALL of the Cone Re-fillable 80ml cartridges must have the corresponding OEM cartridge chip UNDER the chip that is supplied with the refillable cartridges.  Also, as long as the refill-ables are used the chip arrangement remains the same.  Never does the Ink Monitor indicate the accurate ink status for ANY of the re-fillable cartridges.

However, when there is a mix of OEM and re-fillable cartridges, the OEM cartridge status Monitor (with OEM cartridges) appears to function normally as when ALL cartridges were OEM.  I was assured (by the Cone Staff) that the OEM ink status does not have to be empty and the OEM chip can be used if empty --OR-- not empty.  My two were VERY low but not displayed as empty when I changed the first two.

Thanks for your comments.  I had hoped that I had not missed some rather important details since I must confess that I am VERY detailed regarding Pre-Purchase and/or Pre-Usage for about anything.  My Wife should refer to this as being a "nit picker" -- but thankfully, she doesn't.

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Vernon...

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Vernon D Rainwater
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Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...
In reply to jtoolman, Nov 5, 2012

jtoolman wrote:

OK.

Earlier cart versions, requiring each of the OEM chips, fell intro two categories.

One would allow you to sitch to refillable carts as each of your OEM reached empty.

So if yellow went out first, you would take the yellow chip and place it under the yellow controller chip. You would then reinsert that yellow cart and if the inks were a good enough match, you would go on printing without having to make any chages ti your printing routine.

The second type would again need all of your original chips under the controller chips BUT you needed to install them all as a complete set.

Even earlier types would only use two controller chips for two colors and the remaining ones needed just the oem chip with one of the chip terminals taped over. This was also done on the Maintenance Cart chip. Resetting involved a convoluted method.

CONE carts require all the chips, but the chips will reset to full when disconnected from power.

Inkjetfly 3800 and 3880 carts only use the MK and PK chips. The rest of the controller chips do not even have the spring loaded contacts. How do these work is a total mystery to me and I frankly do not care. They work and work very well.

SUpposedly the Carts from IJF are the same as those sold by CONE, except for the chip system.

They, as well as the maintenace cart remain FULL at all times.

Who knows what the next improvement will bring us.

Remember to harvest any ink left from those OEM carts.

Joe

Joe, that is the exact reason I waited to consider Re-loadable Cartridges for my 3880.  Seems there are (at least) two improvements needed (as has been discussed before).  1) Accurate Ink Status Monitoring 2) Filler port to be where there is NOT a requirement to remove the cartridge to refill.  You have mastered this need for your cartridges.  Also, I preferred to use the cartridge with size that conforms to the OEM cartridges. 
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Vernon...

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Petruska
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Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...
In reply to Vernon D Rainwater, Nov 5, 2012

As I said I'm not a 3880 user and see Jtoolman explained below the different 3880 refillable cartridge chip schemes.

It's too bad they can't come out with similar refillable cartridge chips that are used in the R3000 for the 3880.  These carts work exactly like OEM with accurate ink levels and easy to reset by shorting two contacts.  Jtoolman has the new inproved versions of the R2000 refillable carts which now have a micro shorting switch on the top of the cartridge which allows resetting and refilling without removing the cart from the printer.

Bob P.

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jtoolman
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Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...
In reply to Vernon D Rainwater, Nov 5, 2012

As to the ink monitoring, a very strange things occured the very first time I switched from my very first refillable set for one of the 3800s. After I installed the set from IJF ( I had a set of filled carts, one reseller had sent to me to testout ) it went through the purging that would normally take place. My inks indicator showed a drop in the levels and the maintenance cart also showed an increase in Waste Ink levels. I ran some test prints and then turned off the printer for the evening.

The next day, upon powering up all levels went back up to 100% and the Maintenance cart levels showed it to be empty. Ever since that initial "Auto reset" they have never dropped or changed in  any way.

Joe

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Petruska
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Re: Vernon, what browser are you using....
In reply to Vernon D Rainwater, Nov 5, 2012

Well IE is the most buggy out of all the browsers used on DPR, you should upgrade to IE9 if you want more compatibility, but be warned that the embedded fonts used with IE9 drive some users nuts with eye strain!  I received a PM from the DPR staff on thte IE issues and they are correcting some of them but their response is that less than 10% of DPR readers use an IE browser and the new DPR site is being created around more modern browers; Chrome, Safari, and maybe Firefox.

I like IE8, but I also run FireFox and use it on sites like DPR where IE just doen't work correctly.

Bob P.

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rodbam
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The price in Oz
In reply to Petruska, Nov 5, 2012

Petruska wrote:

We then need you to try new pigment OCP K3 VM inks which costs about $0.02 per mL, same price in AUS$, now we are approaching zero ink cost per print....

Bob P.

Bob where did you see OCP ink prices for Aussie buyers? I've been looking for local sources but ended up at Rjetek that didn't have shipping to Oz when I went to the check out.
Regards Rod

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Petruska
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I thought Rjetek sends to AUS...
In reply to rodbam, Nov 5, 2012

sorry...

Bob P.

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JJ Winkel
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Re: Vernon, what browser are you using....
In reply to Petruska, Nov 5, 2012

Petruska wrote:

Well IE is the most buggy out of all the browsers used on DPR, you should upgrade to IE9 if you want more compatibility, but be warned that the embedded fonts used with IE9 drive some users nuts with eye strain! I received a PM from the DPR staff on thte IE issues and they are correcting some of them but their response is that less than 10% of DPR readers use an IE browser and the new DPR site is being created around more modern browers; Chrome, Safari, and maybe Firefox.

I like IE8, but I also run FireFox and use it on sites like DPR where IE just doen't work correctly.

Bob P.

Stange enough IE8 is the most buggy with this new DPR release only, I use it too and have no problems with a number of other forums I am using regularly.

I am a computer old timer too and never heard that one should change the OS to cater for a new application version ..... like changing your car because you use a different gas company .... strange new world

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JJ.

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Mark McCormick
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Re: I thought that IJC uses IS inks?
In reply to jtoolman, Nov 5, 2012

jtoolman wrote:

According to IJF their inks are specially formulated for them and their only CON was their MK not being deep enough. Thus the switch to IS MK.

The IJF pigment inks, other than perhaps the black, are definitely different than the IS set. I can confirm this because the yellow IFJ pigmented ink has much better lightfastness, on a par with Epson OEM K3 yellow.  The IS yellow pigment is worse than Epson Claria dye with respect to light fade, so pigments aren't always better than dyes. MIS associates appears to sell the IS ink set as MIS light fade test results give signature IS test results.

Although Cone's inks are widely respected for initial image quality and reliability, I am unaware of any published lightfastness test results for the Conecolor inks. As we can see from the IS pigmented ink light fastness tests, different particle size distribution and encapsulation technologies mean that not all pigmented inkjet inks are equal in terms of both initial image quality and image stability over time even when the same bulk chemical composition for the pigment has been selected.

cheers,

Mark

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Mark McCormick

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Todd Ka
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Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....
In reply to Petruska, Nov 5, 2012

What about clogging?

Do they dye based inks clog less then the pigment inks?

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jtoolman
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Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....
In reply to Todd Ka, Nov 5, 2012

Generally speaking Dye inks should be less prone to clogging than Pigment inks.

However it is not that simple. Head designs, when the original EPSON Pigments were first introduced, the print head technology was not as sophisticated as they are today and so many folks experienced more missing nozzle in the nozzle check than with Dye inks.

Both will clog. I have an Epson R340 with OEM inks that clogs all the time after just one week and yet I also have a R380 on cheap compatible carts that hardly ever has a problem. They sit right next to eachother.

The newer Epson print heads are specially coated with teflon and actually repel  ink to help reduce ink clogs.

None of my 15 printer ever give me a problem and the range goes from the little R340 ( I have to print daily with it ) R380-Stylus 1400s-R2200s-R1900s-R2000-R2400-R2880-PRO3880-Canon PRO 9000MIII-Canon PRO 9500MKII

The biggest cause of so called missing nozzles during nozzle checks is sinmply letting your printer sit for weeks without ever even sending a simple nozzle check through it. Then we complain.

Lo Humidy levels contributes to this problem. If you live in the desert and your home is air conditioned, you had better print daily.

If you live and a humid region and your printing room is not too dry, you may likely not expereince to many problems.

But the main contributor to bad nozzle checks, other that you gtting air into the system, or not properly priming a refillable cart, is simply not printing with enough frequency.

As Bob Petruska stated, some of his printers as well as some of mine are using OCP pigment K3 inks, and we are printing for more or less 3 cents per ML of ink per color so there is no excuse for not running at least a nozzle check every week.

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LeoChang
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You asked, I answer...
In reply to Mark McCormick, Nov 5, 2012

Mark McCormick wrote:

jtoolman wrote:

According to IJF their inks are specially formulated for them and their only CON was their MK not being deep enough. Thus the switch to IS MK.

The IJF pigment inks, other than perhaps the black, are definitely different than the IS set. I can confirm this because the yellow IFJ pigmented ink has much better lightfastness, on a par with Epson OEM K3 yellow. The IS yellow pigment is worse than Epson Claria dye with respect to light fade, so pigments aren't always better than dyes. MIS associates appears to sell the IS ink set as MIS light fade test results give signature IS test results.

Although Cone's inks are widely respected for initial image quality and reliability, I am unaware of any published lightfastness test results for the Conecolor inks. As we can see from the IS pigmented ink light fastness tests, different particle size distribution and encapsulation technologies mean that not all pigmented inkjet inks are equal in terms of both initial image quality and image stability over time even when the same bulk chemical composition for the pigment has been selected.

cheers,

Mark

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Mark McCormick

IJF use proprietary ink except MK.

We use our own InkjetFly proprietary ink except MK. The reason we use IS MK is because it has deepest black on Matte paper among all 3rd party inks we have tested. None other IJF inks are from IS.

Thank you,

Leo

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jtoolman
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Re: You asked, I answer...
In reply to LeoChang, Nov 5, 2012

Leo, how does your Vivid Magenta and Vid Light Magenta ( K3 for PRO 3880 ) perform in the GLOSS department to OEM K3 VM?

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JJ Winkel
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Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....
In reply to jtoolman, Nov 5, 2012

May I add one more hint, is that pigments settle whereas dye inks don't.

This is especially to be remembered with the printers with fixed carts, where the inks are not rocked by the head movements.
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JJ.

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