Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77

Started Oct 20, 2012 | Discussions
Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
Oct 20, 2012

Here is the link. I think the DP2M is an amazing little camera and was surprised I could use it to photograph artwork.  I tried typing it into the Dpreview articles website but got frustrated and did it on my blog instead.

Sigma DP2M vs Sony A77 by Gary Mercer

Sigma DP2 Sigma DP2 Merrill Sony SLT-A77
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Domolo
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Oct 20, 2012

I can't agree...
A painter uses specific colours, each choice is function of chromatic ratios and expressive will.
The materic part of the work comes later. First of all, for a correct reproduction of a painting, a camera must be faithfull to the colour choosed by the painter.
If I use a Veronese green instead of a Cinabro green. It must be reproduced as Veronese and the Sigma isn't faithfull in this, the Sony or the Pentax imho are far superior.
Instead  Sigmas are a good choice for carachoal, puntasecca and sculpture and any other tecnique where the materic part has a larger importance.

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D Cox
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to Domolo, Oct 20, 2012

Domolo wrote:

I can't agree...
A painter uses specific colours, each choice is function of chromatic ratios and expressive will.
The materic part of the work comes later. First of all, for a correct reproduction of a painting, a camera must be faithfull to the colour choosed by the painter.
If I use a Veronese green instead of a Cinabro green. It must be reproduced as Veronese and the Sigma isn't faithfull in this, the Sony or the Pentax imho are far superior.
Instead  Sigmas are a good choice for carachoal, puntasecca and sculpture and any other tecnique where the materic part has a larger importance.

No camera that uses only three primary colours can give accurate renderings of every pigment used by painters. There will always be problems with metamerism.

That said, I see no reason why a DP2M used with a color checker should not give as useful a record as any other camera used with a color checker (and its software).

Simply correcting white balance may not be enough.

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Domolo
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to D Cox, Oct 20, 2012

I don't want say you can't. I've said it's better. There's a difference.

Obviously a color checker is the first thing to start from.

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Domolo
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to D Cox, Oct 20, 2012

PS Real painter, that has been trained in accademic classical way, paint mixing only the three primaries, a different yellow or a vermillion and a violet will complete the pallette. The use of some earthes will speed up the paint, but they aren't necessary, a "San Giovanni" white will give the light strokes but that's all... 
The thousands of nuances sold by fine art store are a sort of consumuistic involution of the tecnique....
Something like fast food.

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D Cox
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to Domolo, Oct 20, 2012

Domolo wrote:

PS Real painter, that has been trained in accademic classical way, paint mixing only the three primaries, a different yellow or a vermillion and a violet will complete the pallette. The use of some earthes will speed up the paint, but they aren't necessary, a "San Giovanni" white will give the light strokes but that's all... 
The thousands of nuances sold by fine art store are a sort of consumuistic involution of the tecnique....
Something like fast food.

In classical academic painting (Rembrandt, Velasquez, Rubens, Goya, etc), the earth colours are the most important. They are also the most difficult to reproduce with the three-primary system used by current digital cameras.

Skin tones are close to earth colours and are likewise hard to reproduce correctly.

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SandyF
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to Domolo, Oct 20, 2012

Domolo wrote:

I can't agree...
A painter uses specific colours, each choice is function of chromatic ratios and expressive will.
The materic part of the work comes later. First of all, for a correct reproduction of a painting, a camera must be faithfull to the colour choosed by the painter.
If I use a Veronese green instead of a Cinabro green. It must be reproduced as Veronese and the Sigma isn't faithfull in this, the Sony or the Pentax imho are far superior.
Instead  Sigmas are a good choice for carachoal, puntasecca and sculpture and any other tecnique where the materic part has a larger importance.

Are you aware of Georges Noblet's photos... and art work and restoration and photographic records thereof? You might look at his website http://www.pbase.com/ianvermeer/research_on_masterpieces

He posts on this forum as user name vermeer.

Best regards,  Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current, DP2Merrill photos)

 SandyF's gear list:SandyF's gear list
Sigma DP2 Sigma DP1 Sigma DP2 Merrill Canon EOS 5D Mark II Sigma SD9 +5 more
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steven_k
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to SandyF, Oct 20, 2012

Having been in the  fine art repro business for over 10 years in Hawaii, no longer though closed the business back in 08 when the economy tanked here is spin on  using the dp2m for repro work.

Having owned a better light scanning back for years it think it "should" be quite possible to get more accurate colors from the the dp2m in the studio yet only on the studio.

Hers how I would do it.

First light the art evenly using HMI/HID continous  lights.

WB the dp2m using a Gretag WB card and leave the camera on neutral,  Then shoot the Gretag SG color checker chart, lastly shoot the art.

Then comes the fun part,

First open the SG color check chart in SPP and make necessary exposure adjustment that's it and export to 16bit tiff ProPhtoto.

Then you wave to create a custom ICC camera profile using Xrite software or Picto InCamera profile software.

Export the art image using the sMae adjustments you made in SPP very critical must be the same.

Open image in PS then first assign profile to the ICC profile created front the SG color checker, then covert back to ProPhoto color space.

That's it, will it be a 100% match? Of course not, impossible, yet it will be much closer to the original.

Its sounds like a PITA, buon if you have the write equipment and software ,  it does not take that long to master.

Steven

Ps. I rented the dp1m and dp2m last weekend, the dp2m IMHO smoked the dp1m in terms of overall IQ, I'm holding off on purchasing the DP2m until Sigma vastly improves SPP or at least output to dng, then one could make ther own camera profile in LR /ACR Foven sensor as much as I like it, the default color profile thcamera era uses to me is just way to off, and although with carefull processing technique I could enhance the colr to look a little more natural it was still off.

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to Domolo, Oct 20, 2012

Domolo wrote:

I can't agree...
A painter uses specific colours, each choice is function of chromatic ratios and expressive will.
The materic part of the work comes later. First of all, for a correct reproduction of a painting, a camera must be faithfull to the colour choosed by the painter.
If I use a Veronese green instead of a Cinabro green. It must be reproduced as Veronese and the Sigma isn't faithfull in this, the Sony or the Pentax imho are far superior.
Instead  Sigmas are a good choice for carachoal, puntasecca and sculpture and any other tecnique where the materic part has a larger importance.

I'd like to try photographing Veronese green with the DP2M.  Hmmn.  I find shades of purple  more difficult to photograph accurately with the Sony A77 and also found the same thing with the Canon 5D MK II.  Thankfully I've got different systems to meet my needs, even though the DP2M does have some clear resolution and detail advantages.

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Gary Mercer

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to D Cox, Oct 20, 2012

D Cox wrote:

Domolo wrote:

I can't agree...
A painter uses specific colours, each choice is function of chromatic ratios and expressive will.
The materic part of the work comes later. First of all, for a correct reproduction of a painting, a camera must be faithfull to the colour choosed by the painter.
If I use a Veronese green instead of a Cinabro green. It must be reproduced as Veronese and the Sigma isn't faithfull in this, the Sony or the Pentax imho are far superior.
Instead  Sigmas are a good choice for carachoal, puntasecca and sculpture and any other tecnique where the materic part has a larger importance.

No camera that uses only three primary colours can give accurate renderings of every pigment used by painters. There will always be problems with metamerism.

That said, I see no reason why a DP2M used with a color checker should not give as useful a record as any other camera used with a color checker (and its software).

Simply correcting white balance may not be enough.

LOL--R. Louisell seems to use every pigment that is difficult to reproduce in RGB.   Her work can be a real challenge to photograph faithfully.

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Gary Mercer

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to SandyF, Oct 20, 2012

SandyF wrote:

Domolo wrote:

I can't agree...
A painter uses specific colours, each choice is function of chromatic ratios and expressive will.
The materic part of the work comes later. First of all, for a correct reproduction of a painting, a camera must be faithfull to the colour choosed by the painter.
If I use a Veronese green instead of a Cinabro green. It must be reproduced as Veronese and the Sigma isn't faithfull in this, the Sony or the Pentax imho are far superior.
Instead  Sigmas are a good choice for carachoal, puntasecca and sculpture and any other tecnique where the materic part has a larger importance.

Are you aware of Georges Noblet's photos... and art work and restoration and photographic records thereof? You might look at his website http://www.pbase.com/ianvermeer/research_on_masterpieces

He posts on this forum as user name vermeer.

Best regards,  Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current, DP2Merrill photos)

I'm a big fan of Georges Noblet's work and photographs.  A real master painter and great photographer.

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Gary Mercer

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to steven_k, Oct 20, 2012

steven_k wrote:

Having been in the  fine art repro business for over 10 years in Hawaii, no longer though closed the business back in 08 when the economy tanked here is spin on  using the dp2m for repro work.

Having owned a better light scanning back for years it think it "should" be quite possible to get more accurate colors from the the dp2m in the studio yet only on the studio.

Hers how I would do it.

First light the art evenly using HMI/HID continous  lights.

WB the dp2m using a Gretag WB card and leave the camera on neutral,  Then shoot the Gretag SG color checker chart, lastly shoot the art.

Then comes the fun part,

First open the SG color check chart in SPP and make necessary exposure adjustment that's it and export to 16bit tiff ProPhtoto.

Then you wave to create a custom ICC camera profile using Xrite software or Picto InCamera profile software.

Export the art image using the sMae adjustments you made in SPP very critical must be the same.

Open image in PS then first assign profile to the ICC profile created front the SG color checker, then covert back to ProPhoto color space.

That's it, will it be a 100% match? Of course not, impossible, yet it will be much closer to the original.

Its sounds like a PITA, buon if you have the write equipment and software ,  it does not take that long to master.

Steven

Ps. I rented the dp1m and dp2m last weekend, the dp2m IMHO smoked the dp1m in terms of overall IQ, I'm holding off on purchasing the DP2m until Sigma vastly improves SPP or at least output to dng, then one could make ther own camera profile in LR /ACR Foven sensor as much as I like it, the default color profile thcamera era uses to me is just way to off, and although with carefull processing technique I could enhance the colr to look a little more natural it was still off.

Interesting workflow Steven.  It always amazes me how many ways there are to peel an orange.   I think the most important thing is to use daylight balanced bulbs with the highest CRI rating ( color rendering Index) score.  That is first and most important step.   Lots of photographers are using daylight rated fluorescents now--but there is a flood of cheap bulbs in the market with no CRI index listed on them--anything less than 87 is garbage. Here is an excellent pimer on color temperature @ color rendering for someone looking to learn about color temperature that you and I already know about Steven.  http://www.lowel.com/edu/color_temperature_and_rendering_demystified.html

Gary Mercer

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TClair
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Oct 20, 2012

Gary thanks for posting this article .  I'm impressed with DP2M and now the world is starting to recolonize its abilities.

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to TClair, Oct 20, 2012

TClair wrote:

Gary thanks for posting this article .  I'm impressed with DP2M and now the world is starting to recolonize its abilities

Sigma really deserves credit for producing this remarkable camera.  I think the SD1M is completely underrated as well.  Put great glass on it and it produces fantastic images as well.

Gary Mercer

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Did you read the letter from the artist?
In reply to Domolo, Oct 21, 2012

Domolo wrote:

I can't agree...
A painter uses specific colours, each choice is function of chromatic ratios and expressive will.
The materic part of the work comes later. First of all, for a correct reproduction of a painting, a camera must be faithfull to the colour choosed by the painter.
If I use a Veronese green instead of a Cinabro green. It must be reproduced as Veronese and the Sigma isn't faithfull in this, the Sony or the Pentax imho are far superior.
Instead  Sigmas are a good choice for carachoal, puntasecca and sculpture and any other tecnique where the materic part has a larger importance.

This is not just Gary's opinion.

At the end of the article the artist that had produced the work in the first place indicated she was thrilled with the way the camera captured the colors she spent a lot of effort blending.

The notion that the Sigma "is not faithful in this" sounds an awful lot like something said based only on theory, not experience. Some people claim that because of metamerism you cannot capture colors accurately with a Foveon sensor while never producing examples of that effect actually impacting real-world images, and at all while accurate image after image are churned out by people like Gary and Georges.

The people that claim you cannot capture accurate colors with Foveon sensors also ignore the larger array of variables that go into trying to capture accurate colors with a sensor when ever more that three spatially separated capture points go into the output of a single pixel in an image.  How can that system possibly yield more accuracy on anything except for a flat wash of monotone color or the simplest possible gradients?  Either way, far less suitable to reproducing artwork.

 Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list:Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list
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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Very impressive
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Oct 21, 2012

A nice post and the letter from the artist herself was great to see.

 Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list:Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list
Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG OS HSM Sigma 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM Sigma 24-70mm F2.8 EX DG HSM Sigma 50-500mm F4.5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sigma 85mm F1.4 EX DG HSM +4 more
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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: Very impressive
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Oct 21, 2012

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

A nice post and the letter from the artist herself was great to see.

R. Louisell said she could clearly see the difference and was thrilled with the reshoot of the image.  Nothing better than a client weighing in with their opinion.  thanks.

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Gary Mercer

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chicamera
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Oct 22, 2012

What color settings/saturation settings were used/found to be best/most accurate?

Other forums insist that LR must be employed to get even close to correct color and art seems like the ideal test subject for this.

Thanks.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Full size images links broken...
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Oct 22, 2012

gary mercer wrote:

R. Louisell said she could clearly see the difference and was thrilled with the reshoot of the image.  Nothing better than a client weighing in with their opinion.  thanks.

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Gary Mercer

The full size image links for both Sony and PD cameras appear to not work, did the artist request the full size images not be displayed?

 Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list:Kendall Helmstetter Gelner's gear list
Sigma 70-200mm F2.8 EX DG OS HSM Sigma 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM Sigma 24-70mm F2.8 EX DG HSM Sigma 50-500mm F4.5-6.3 DG OS HSM Sigma 85mm F1.4 EX DG HSM +4 more
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yukoner2
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Re: Sigma DP2M Vs the Sony A77
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Oct 22, 2012

Well done Gary. Great to see the testimonial from the artist.

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