DAM software replacement for IDImager

Started Sep 25, 2012 | Discussions
K-Murat
Forum MemberPosts: 58
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to fuego6, Oct 22, 2012

Daminion understands Hierarchical tags (not only Keywords but also Categories, People, Events).

It can even write XMP with hierarchical tags into Camera RAW files (powered by ExifTool). But this feature should be turned on (by default Daminion writes to XMP sidecars of Camera RAW files)

Migrating to Daminion is very easy if your present DAM solution supports writing annotations into XMP or IPTC metadata: just import your root folder with photos into Daminion. All metadata fields (more than 150 metadata fields are supported) will be imported into the program as tags.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
StephaneB
Contributing MemberPosts: 587Gear list
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to thelordsmurf, Oct 22, 2012

I too tried the little outsider route. It does not work. Software maintenance demands resources, let alone development of new features. Tiny companies of just a few people are just not reliable enough to make your valued data dependent on their software, however the product is.

Sooner or later they simply disappear.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
malch
Forum ProPosts: 10,790
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to StephaneB, Oct 22, 2012

StephaneB wrote:

I too tried the little outsider route. It does not work. Software maintenance demands resources, let alone development of new features. Tiny companies of just a few people are just not reliable enough to make your valued data dependent on their software, however the product is.

Not always.

Plenty of large companies disappear and/or are acquired or involved in mergers. And they're even more ruthless about dropping products or making them disappear.

On the other hard, some small companies survive quite well and tend to take much better care of their customers than the big guys.

Disclaimer: I happen to own one of those tiny software companies (not photo related) and, in the past 16 years, we have looked after every single customer, without exception.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
StephaneB
Contributing MemberPosts: 587Gear list
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to malch, Oct 24, 2012

There are of course exceptions. But in the photo-related software area, I got burned with LightZone and Bibble. Now, predictability is my number one criteria to choose products. I can work around flaws and quirks. I cannot work around the product disappearing.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MisterBG
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,372
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to StephaneB, Oct 24, 2012

StephaneB wrote:

There are of course exceptions. But in the photo-related software area, I got burned with LightZone and Bibble. Now, predictability is my number one criteria to choose products. I can work around flaws and quirks. I cannot work around the product disappearing.

I too suffered with the demise of LightZone and that did not appear to be a "one man" program, with list of developer credits as long as for some Adobe products. There is an active community (lightzombie.org) dedicated to maintaining LightZone into the immediate future. Bibble has not actually disappeared, just morphed (with improvements I gather) into AfterShot Pro.
The world needs these independent program developers, otherwise we will end up with a huge Adobe monopoly of all photo software, which would be a bad thing for everyone except Adobe.

So you say:
"predictability is my number one criteria to choose products"
That's quite a claim and I'd really like to know how you can predict the future when it comes to software (or anything else for that matter).
Some very large companies have failed, or at least got into difficulties, in the recent past, so size is no basis for judgement.
I welcome independent program development. Anything that helps against the behemoth that is Adobe is welcome, as far as I'm concerned.

-- hide signature --

>To err is Human. To really foul things up you need a computer.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
thelordsmurf
New MemberPosts: 14
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to K-Murat, Dec 24, 2012

Is there a way to import Picasa faces to Daminion keywords?

Thanks!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
thelordsmurf
New MemberPosts: 14
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to K-Murat, Dec 24, 2012

It would be great, I agree, if Daminion were able to use GPS as well. Tag GPS and reverse code.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
thelordsmurf
New MemberPosts: 14
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to fuego6, Dec 24, 2012

I agree that IDImager is not going to blow up and self-destruct anytime soon.

I am a physician and use photography as a hobby. I think I take some good pictures so I'd like to be able to retain them in a logical way. I use photos as a kind of travel diary... so there are specific things that I want my DAM software to be able to do. I don't need it to have sophisticated image editing in it; old versions of Photoshop work for me. I don't shoot RAW but I might one day; when that day comes around that might be a factor.

I guess I just need a software that lets me do hierarchical tagging, store the data in the file, and make it show up in Facebook and Flickr. I can use GeoSetter for GPS if I have to. I can use Photoshop for image editing if I have to. I do want to be able to search my photos and find them with good search criteria; for instance if I'm making a gift for a friend, finding all the pics of that friend quickly would be nice.

Also, something that lets me take Picasa face tagging (which is the best by far that I've used) and import that would be great. Do Daminion, iMatch, or any of the others mentioned here do that?

Thanks for all the help!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
fuego6
Senior MemberPosts: 1,694
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to thelordsmurf, Dec 24, 2012

thelordsmurf wrote:

I agree that IDImager is not going to blow up and self-destruct anytime soon.

I am a physician and use photography as a hobby. I think I take some good pictures so I'd like to be able to retain them in a logical way. I use photos as a kind of travel diary... so there are specific things that I want my DAM software to be able to do. I don't need it to have sophisticated image editing in it; old versions of Photoshop work for me. I don't shoot RAW but I might one day; when that day comes around that might be a factor.

I guess I just need a software that lets me do hierarchical tagging, store the data in the file, and make it show up in Facebook and Flickr. I can use GeoSetter for GPS if I have to. I can use Photoshop for image editing if I have to. I do want to be able to search my photos and find them with good search criteria; for instance if I'm making a gift for a friend, finding all the pics of that friend quickly would be nice.

Also, something that lets me take Picasa face tagging (which is the best by far that I've used) and import that would be great. Do Daminion, iMatch, or any of the others mentioned here do that?

Thanks for all the help!

It won't destruct... but then again, it isn't windows 8 compliant so upgrading you PC will render your software obsolete.  In addition, you will not get much in the way of support or enhancement which you will eventually want for when you purchase a new camera or want to do things like easy drag/drop GPS.  If you do eventually run into the dreaded SQL errors - good luck trying to correct them in the older version.

It was great software... Supreme is MUCH faster, better UI but is missing some features that it should have (such as the aforementioned GPS module).

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Chris Dubea
Senior MemberPosts: 1,693
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to MisterBG, Feb 16, 2013

MisterBG wrote:

I just returned to IMatch and looked at the "Teaser" document for V5 and I must say it looks very interesting, particularly as it says it's using a single editor to write and store all the Metadata, which is something I had lengthy debate about on the IMatch forum some time ago. The previous method of using separate editors for IPTC and XMP data was cumbersome in the extreme.
No doubt he will want more money for the upgrade, but as a registered user I hope the price will be favorable. I await the release of the full version with interest.

-- hide signature --

>To err is Human. To really foul things up you need a computer.

Well, the release of iMatch5, or iMatchNG, or whatever it is called nowadays has been "imminent" for something on the order of 5 years. Do a search on my posts.

What I am saying is don't sit around doing nothing about your DAM efforts waiting for iMatch5. It will prolly be a long wait.

-- hide signature --

Chris

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MisterBG
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,372
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to Chris Dubea, Feb 16, 2013

Chris Dubea wrote:

MisterBG wrote:

I just returned to IMatch and looked at the "Teaser" document for V5 and I must say it looks very interesting, particularly as it says it's using a single editor to write and store all the Metadata, which is something I had lengthy debate about on the IMatch forum some time ago. The previous method of using separate editors for IPTC and XMP data was cumbersome in the extreme.
No doubt he will want more money for the upgrade, but as a registered user I hope the price will be favorable. I await the release of the full version with interest.

-- hide signature --

>To err is Human. To really foul things up you need a computer.

Well, the release of iMatch5, or iMatchNG, or whatever it is called nowadays has been "imminent" for something on the order of 5 years. Do a search on my posts.

What I am saying is don't sit around doing nothing about your DAM efforts waiting for iMatch5. It will prolly be a long wait.

-- hide signature --

Chris

I fear you are right regarding IMatch. Chances are we may never see another version, and if one is forthcoming, most disgruntled users will have moved on to something else.

For my part, I have settled on Zoner Photo Studio 15 (free version) for the time being.
I had given Daminion a lengthy trial, but it was ridiculously slow reading images into the catalog, although a revised edition has just been released, which claims to be much faster and with an improved UI.
Initial tests indicate a significant speed improvement, but it's still much slower than rival programs and I'm unlikely to adopt it as my "preferred" DAM program.

-- hide signature --

>The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
fuego6
Senior MemberPosts: 1,694
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to MisterBG, Feb 17, 2013

Imatch NG has been in private alpha/beta testing for years now... It's being treated as very hush hush, secret tools, blah blah blah... I'm sure it will hit the market but seriously - how many folks are really going to buy it? 2,000?  10,000?  Lightroom sells that many copies in a week - its a niche market and application and no amount of development time spent is going to pay its developers back appropriately - unless a large company comes in and swoops em up (ala Corel).

Idimager meanwhile has been able to develop and ship and really nice product in the time Imatch is still being tested... Give it a shot - its not bad though still a bit quirky.

Personally, I've been using LR and find it does all I need it to do very quickly.... In the end, having my DAM within my editor is a real bonus and something I like (no need to export, hope DNG's will update, etc)...

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Stubb
Contributing MemberPosts: 507Gear list
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to fuego6, Feb 27, 2013

It's been interesting perusing this thread. Best I can tell, Lightroom is the only application that supports both hierarchical keywording and  geotagging. Or did I miss something? I don't count Aperture because it can't import/export hierarchical keywords, plus it's been three years since it received a significant  update.

—Andreas

-- hide signature --
 Stubb's gear list:Stubb's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
fuego6
Senior MemberPosts: 1,694
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to Stubb, Feb 28, 2013

Stubb wrote:

It's been interesting perusing this thread. Best I can tell, Lightroom is the only application that supports both hierarchical keywording and geotagging. Or did I miss something? I don't count Aperture because it can't import/export hierarchical keywords, plus it's been three years since it received a significant update.

—Andreas

-- hide signature --

Well... that could be true if you are talking about native geotagging support.  Idimager used to support it in v5.x  but there "new" version doesn't for some odd reason - they suggest using Geosetter.  Now, I don't have an issue using 3rd party tools that do a better job than a software's tool - but Geosetter still doesn't have a way to only show the images that you select and open the software with.  They are highlighted so you can work on only that set - but if you accidently do something to that set (or need to individually work on the images for different locations) - poof - you see all the images in that folder.

To me - that is a major misstep to the 3rd party and the reason why I only use LR now for my DAM... one stop shopping that works pretty fast and has good tools.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
thelordsmurf
New MemberPosts: 14
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to fuego6, Mar 19, 2013

So based on all of the above comments (thanks so much everyone!), it seems the three best options me for are Lightroom, Zoner, and Photo Supreme.

For Lightroom, Geoff, did you ever figure out the Lightroom hierarchical keywords issue you mention here http://gcoupe.wordpress.com/2012/03/21/lightroom-4-a-mixed-blessing/ ? I definitely have hierarchical keywords (Photo Type|Landscape, Water, etc; People|Family|etc People|Friends ...) and don't every photo with a person in it have an IPTC or XML keyword of "people" written to it in Flickr. But having a built-in good photo editor, and reasonable geotagging capabilities, seems useful.

Zoner free seems worth a try, does anyone know if it has geotagging?

Photo Supreme, I'm willing to give it a try as well; does it treat hierarchical keywords any better.

Basically I just need whatever DAM software I use, Picasa face tagging (likely via the AV XMP Face Tag utility), and Flickr to work together so I don't have to do a huge number of edits to get the photos online. I'm already years behind...

Thanks!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MisterBG
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,372
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to thelordsmurf, Mar 19, 2013

Zoner free seems worth a try, does anyone know if it has geotagging?

Yes, you can assign GPS data or plot a location on Google earth.

-- hide signature --

>The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
fuego6
Senior MemberPosts: 1,694
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to MisterBG, Mar 20, 2013

Zoner free seems worth a try, does anyone know if it has geotagging?

Yes, you can assign GPS data or plot a location on Google earth.

-- hide signature --

>The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

Agree.. and it is very well done too.  To be honest - I think it is a really top notch program and the Pro version that I have is well worth the extra $$$.

The only thing to keep in mind with regard to your keyword questions - is how programs handle XMP.  Most of these program will claim to support XMP.. but they do not show the data within the software.  So, you can't see XMP:DC:Photoshop nor can you make edits to it.  For that - Photo Supreme is still.. supreme and really the only program that I trust these days for that type of work.

Unfortunately, your hierarchical keywords will still be written out as flat keywords to basic IPTC (since that field is just a flat list) and most software/websites will still only read from EXIF/IPTC.  Zoner supports Xmp in a similar way but does not support hierarchical keywords - they do not read seperators and create keywords for assignment nor do they write out the keyword hierarchy... kinda stupid if you ask me but so be it.  Lr will handle hierarchical keywords correctly - IPTC gets the end keyword (unless you force parents as well) and the XMP gets the hierarchy..

I'm beginning to rethink my use of hierarchical anyway... hasn't caught on in the world and honestly - there are very few times when I really need my keywords to be that distinct (I don't have many duplicates that get lost in translation).  I also made the mistake of writing the entire hierarchy into my IPTC keywords for movement from Idimager to LR... so now, I have Object|Car in there instead of just Car.  Not a major deal.. and when these are read into a program like Zoner - the hierarchy is sort of recreated.. .but the keyword list gets super long because there is not way to tell zoner to create the hierarchy based on the field.. .and even if I create an XML file to import the keywords and break them... Zoner won't write a hierarchy back out to IPTC (need to see what it does with XMP).

Anyway ... hope this helps!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
thelordsmurf
New MemberPosts: 14
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to fuego6, Mar 21, 2013

fuego6 wrote:

Zoner free seems worth a try, does anyone know if it has geotagging?

Yes, you can assign GPS data or plot a location on Google earth.

-- hide signature --

>The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

Agree.. and it is very well done too. To be honest - I think it is a really top notch program and the Pro version that I have is well worth the extra $$$.

The only thing to keep in mind with regard to your keyword questions - is how programs handle XMP. Most of these program will claim to support XMP.. but they do not show the data within the software. So, you can't see XMP:DC:Photoshop nor can you make edits to it. For that - Photo Supreme is still.. supreme and really the only program that I trust these days for that type of work.

Unfortunately, your hierarchical keywords will still be written out as flat keywords to basic IPTC (since that field is just a flat list) and most software/websites will still only read from EXIF/IPTC. Zoner supports Xmp in a similar way but does not support hierarchical keywords - they do not read seperators and create keywords for assignment nor do they write out the keyword hierarchy... kinda stupid if you ask me but so be it. Lr will handle hierarchical keywords correctly - IPTC gets the end keyword (unless you force parents as well) and the XMP gets the hierarchy..

I'm beginning to rethink my use of hierarchical anyway... hasn't caught on in the world and honestly - there are very few times when I really need my keywords to be that distinct (I don't have many duplicates that get lost in translation). I also made the mistake of writing the entire hierarchy into my IPTC keywords for movement from Idimager to LR... so now, I have Object|Car in there instead of just Car. Not a major deal.. and when these are read into a program like Zoner - the hierarchy is sort of recreated.. .but the keyword list gets super long because there is not way to tell zoner to create the hierarchy based on the field.. .and even if I create an XML file to import the keywords and break them... Zoner won't write a hierarchy back out to IPTC (need to see what it does with XMP).

Anyway ... hope this helps!

To be entirely honest the hierarchical keywords thing isn't as much for Flickr publishing as it is for search functionality.

For instance, I'd actually prefer it if not all keyword levels get published to the file (either flat IPTC or XMP). I have a structure right now like:

Photo Type

-Landscape

-Water

-- hide signature --

Waterfalls

--Ocean

-Panoramas

etc.

So I don't want the IPTC to have the keyword tag Photo Type, but do want Water, Waterfalls, Ocean, etc. I think one of the nicest things about IDImager was that I could individually choose which keyword gets published to the IPTC/XMP. The photo type header was more a way for me to be able to search my photos quickly (Oh I need a water picture, let's search for keyword water). On Flickr I'd prefer that both water and waterfall show up so I guess I'd want both to be published to the IPTC to get read by Flickr.

I just want a program that makes the process to go from images to Flickr/email faster and easy. My friends are waiting on photos from trips 3 years ago! Without GPS Supreme just isn't my choice. Looks like Lightroom and Zoner are worth they try, though does anyone out there know how Zoner deals with hierarchical in XMP as per fuego's comment?

Thanks!

Aashoo

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
fuego6
Senior MemberPosts: 1,694
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to thelordsmurf, Mar 22, 2013

thelordsmurf wrote:

To be entirely honest the hierarchical keywords thing isn't as much for Flickr publishing as it is for search functionality.

For instance, I'd actually prefer it if not all keyword levels get published to the file (either flat IPTC or XMP). I have a structure right now like:

Photo Type

-Landscape

-Water

-- hide signature --

Waterfalls

--Ocean

-Panoramas

etc.

So I don't want the IPTC to have the keyword tag Photo Type, but do want Water, Waterfalls, Ocean, etc. I think one of the nicest things about IDImager was that I could individually choose which keyword gets published to the IPTC/XMP. The photo type header was more a way for me to be able to search my photos quickly (Oh I need a water picture, let's search for keyword water). On Flickr I'd prefer that both water and waterfall show up so I guess I'd want both to be published to the IPTC to get read by Flickr.

I just want a program that makes the process to go from images to Flickr/email faster and easy. My friends are waiting on photos from trips 3 years ago! Without GPS Supreme just isn't my choice. Looks like Lightroom and Zoner are worth they try, though does anyone out there know how Zoner deals with hierarchical in XMP as per fuego's comment?

Thanks!

Aashoo

Zoner does NOT do anything with XMP... I checked this yesterday just for fun by writing out some keywords in Zoner Iie: People -> Family -> Jill - went to photo supreme and checked the IPTC and XMP - IPTC keywords had: Family, Jill, People (not exactly good).. and there is NO XMP data written out to dc:subject nor any other XMP schema.   So - at the moment, I would say Zoner is out.

Just for fun again, I added an existing hierarchical keyword in Supreme to the image: Object->Ball->Red and sync'd the metadata.  Supreme correctly shows: ball for the ITPC keyword and the dc:subject shows Object|Ball|Red (aOK) - the XMP scheme for idimager also shows the GUID and keywords so all looks good.

I then went back to Zoner and repulled in the keywords from the image... what I got was a single keyword: Red.. not cool....  so, zoner cannot read XMP either.. it is relying soley on the IPTC keywords.  I also imported an image that had the hierarchy filed within the ITPC subject field... what I got was a single new keyword: Animals|Dog|Mutt - not good.

So.. until Zoner can handle XMP read/write and assign true hierarchy out of the catalog - its a non useful program for me.  Having said that - it still is a very good image viewer/editor and non-hierarchical catalog program.

LR still wins ... the build in GPS is really good... still no clue as to why Idimager is taking the stand they are against adding it to the program.  I'm all for using multiple software - but GPS is basic stuff these days and should be a feature included in it in my opinion.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MisterBG
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,372
Like?
Re: DAM software replacement for IDImager
In reply to fuego6, Mar 24, 2013

fuego6 wrote:

Zoner does NOT do anything with XMP... I checked this yesterday just for fun by writing out some keywords in Zoner Iie: People -> Family -> Jill - went to photo supreme and checked the IPTC and XMP - IPTC keywords had: Family, Jill, People (not exactly good).. and there is NO XMP data written out to dc:subject nor any other XMP schema. So - at the moment, I would say Zoner is out.

Just for fun again, I added an existing hierarchical keyword in Supreme to the image: Object->Ball->Red and sync'd the metadata. Supreme correctly shows: ball for the ITPC keyword and the dc:subject shows Object|Ball|Red (aOK) - the XMP scheme for idimager also shows the GUID and keywords so all looks good.

I then went back to Zoner and repulled in the keywords from the image... what I got was a single keyword: Red.. not cool.... so, zoner cannot read XMP either.. it is relying soley on the IPTC keywords. I also imported an image that had the hierarchy filed within the ITPC subject field... what I got was a single new keyword: Animals|Dog|Mutt - not good.

So.. until Zoner can handle XMP read/write and assign true hierarchy out of the catalog - its a non useful program for me. Having said that - it still is a very good image viewer/editor and non-hierarchical catalog program.

LR still wins ... the build in GPS is really good... still no clue as to why Idimager is taking the stand they are against adding it to the program. I'm all for using multiple software - but GPS is basic stuff these days and should be a feature included in it in my opinion.

I have now moved on to Lightroom, which I primarily wanted as a raw developer program.
However, Because of the way Lightroom manges it's image library, you cannot send an image from Zoner (or any other DAM) directly into LR.
All Lightroom images must be imported via it's own library, so I have been forced (somewhat reluctantly) to adopt the Lightroom library for my image management.

I'm still becoming accustomed to Lightroom, but I find your statement "Zoner does NOT do anything with XMP" a little puzzling, since all the XMP image data that I have written with Zoner seems to appear and display correctly in Lightzone. Are you sure that you applied the data to the images? I found it's quite easy to exit Zoner without having saved the XMP data, but I'm assuming it appears in Zoner itself.
Of course, now I'm using Lightzone I shall be using that to write all my XMP data in future.

-- hide signature --

>The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads