4/3rd's dying a slow death...

Started Sep 13, 2012 | Discussions
Old Pirate
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4/3rd's dying a slow death...
Sep 13, 2012

And while Sony's NEX system with both the APS C and soon to be FF is a large part of what will kill it is was Canon's decision to go APS C in their mirrorless versus 4/3rd's that started the spiral.

The advantage of 4/3rds was weight and size and they accomplished it with a small sensor. The size and weight advantage is no longer there even from cameras with large sensors that resolve more, and see more in low light.

The lens issue is mooted with each passing month and each set of new APS C or FF lenses that come out. After all, there are only so many ways you can cover the necessary range before...well....it's covered!

Jogger
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Re: 4/3rd's dying a slow death...
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

The funny thing with Sony is that if m43 does well, they win too since they are supplying Oly EM5 with its sensor.. and soon other Oly PEN models will be using Sony sensors as well. Same with Fuji and their system (its a Sony sensor). Panasonic needs to improve their sensor tech ASAP or they will face a major competitive disadvantage in image quality.. they are not adverse to using Sony sensors since their LX7 uses one.

Old Pirate wrote:

And while Sony's NEX system with both the APS C and soon to be FF is a large part of what will kill it is was Canon's decision to go APS C in their mirrorless versus 4/3rd's that started the spiral.

The advantage of 4/3rds was weight and size and they accomplished it with a small sensor. The size and weight advantage is no longer there even from cameras with large sensors that resolve more, and see more in low light.

The lens issue is mooted with each passing month and each set of new APS C or FF lenses that come out. After all, there are only so many ways you can cover the necessary range before...well....it's covered!

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kev777zero
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Re: 4/3rd's dying a slow death...
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

threads like these should not be in the NEX forum. it'll just rage m4/3 fanboys that finally decide to take a sneak peak at what the NEX fuss is all about.

Sure, I think NEX is on top of its game in terms of their camera system (best fits me at least), but there are still pros & cons of each system. m4/3 still has quite an advantage in terms lens size (not body size), and it'll only show up even more as we go to the telephoto side of focal lengths. compare the 55-210mm with any telephoto lenses in m4/3 and you'll see what I mean.
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Everdog
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M43 still killing NEX in Japan
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

M43 has 4 of the top 11 selling cameras in Japan. NEX still has zero. It has been like this all of 2012. For a while NEX had zero in the top 20.

If you look at the lenses Sony camera out with this year, you see a big problem. None are very good (a duplicate super-zoom, another kit lens, etc). None can come close to the IQ of many of the M43 lenses like the 75mm F/1.8 lens.

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blue_skies
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Re: A rising tide floats all boats...
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

Disagree, mirror less sales, in fact all camera sales, have been strong, in a down economy.

Ubiquity of PCs can be attributed, people are going digital. Even smart phone users need to have a PC. It then is a small step towards digital photography.

MFT is better, even easier to use, than APS-C in many respects. The cameras are small and the gear is smaller/cheaper.

Advanced photographers prefer APS-C, but Sony would not need the hybrid AF if CDAF was perfect. CDAF works well in P&S, less so in Nex, look at your OOF misses.

MFT, with its larger DOF, yields more keepers.

But then again, a shallow DOF APS-C pic is more impressive.

I could consider MFT for longer FL, smaller gear, more DOF, IS, these are all plusses. I would not consider it for WA, portraits, etc.

MFT is a big step up from your newest cell phone, it still matters. I would consider cell phones being the big threat, not Canon.

Old Pirate wrote:

And while Sony's NEX system with both the APS C and soon to be FF is a large part of what will kill it is was Canon's decision to go APS C in their mirrorless versus 4/3rd's that started the spiral.

The advantage of 4/3rds was weight and size and they accomplished it with a small sensor. The size and weight advantage is no longer there even from cameras with large sensors that resolve more, and see more in low light.

The lens issue is mooted with each passing month and each set of new APS C or FF lenses that come out. After all, there are only so many ways you can cover the necessary range before...well....it's covered!

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Everdog
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Don't forget IBIS
In reply to kev777zero, Sep 13, 2012

For some reason Sony puts IBIS on every camera they make...except the NEX. This forces them to add it to the lenses making them larger, heavier and costing more.

Also, you do have to wonder why every NEX lens over 55mm is F/6.3. Even with shrinking the aperture, the M43 cameras end up being a lot smaller than the larger aperture M43 counterparts...

http://camerasize.com/compact/#325.90,163.95,ha,t

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greenmartini
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Re: 4/3rd's dying a slow death...
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

I wouldn't count them out, new m4/3 cameras and lenses will be announced soon.

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Everdog
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Re: A rising tide floats all boats...
In reply to blue_skies, Sep 13, 2012

blue_skies wrote:

MFT, with its larger DOF, yields more keepers.

But then again, a shallow DOF APS-C pic is more impressive.

You can shrink DoF with software.
It is impossible to fix a ruined shot with shallow DoF.

This is why Sony now has a shallow DoF effect in many of their cameras. You can use a wide DoF, get a keeper and add the shallow DoF in post.

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Jerry R
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1", DX, & FX. 4/3 won't last. Little or no advantage over 1" (size & IQ)
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

1", DX, & FX. 4/3 won't last. Little or no advantage over 1" (size & IQ) and not in the DX league when it comes to IQ.
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tesilab
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Re: 4/3rd's dying a slow death...
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

If anything, APS-C is getting squeezed between m43 and ff.

The way I see it, the formats that make the most sense are:

  • 1" for people who insist on a pocket camera rather than a phone

  • M43 for just about everybody who wants the full adjustable photography experience in a compact package, isn't a DOF freak, doesn't require PDAF, and doesn't print posters.

  • FF for people for gear enthusiasts, deep pockets, and those of us fixated on ultimate IQ that one can still afford without shooting film.

Of course, APS-C will continue to make sense to those invested in APS-C lenses, and some niches. Just saying that it is the format that is the most hemmed in by alternatives.

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zackiedawg
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Re: Don't forget IBIS
In reply to Everdog, Sep 13, 2012

Everdog wrote:

Also, you do have to wonder why every NEX lens over 55mm is F/6.3.

FYI - SEL55-210mm lens is F4.5 at 55mm, and F5.6 at 145mm. It's not at F6.3 until it gets over 150mm or so.

Why on earth anyone who owns a NEX cares whether M4:3 owners like their cameras, or why M4:3 owners care whether NEX owners like their cameras, and feel the need to come to the other forum to put down the other brands, I have no idea. This thread was unfortunate unnecessary bait, and has drawn the inevitable and obvious unnecessary replies. And the beat goes on.

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Jerry R
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I like APS-C because of the 1.5 crop with FF lenses with out significant
In reply to tesilab, Sep 13, 2012

I like APS-C because of the 1.5 crop with FF lenses with out significant loss in IQ.

50mm on APS-C is 75mm, nice for pics of the kids.
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RussellInCincinnati
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why are we starting micro 4/3 thread in a Nex forum?
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

Clearly off-topic, as well as being an inflammatory, unprovable and pointless topic in any forum.

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Franka T.L.
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more like not growing
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

I would wager the issue with M4/3 is that both Panasonic and Olympus are too hard wired conservative with their approach to the system while making some bad decision along the way. Most notably by sticking with the just hell bend for small and light approach.

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Tim200
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Re: 4/3rd's dying a slow death...
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

IMO the only m43 that has staying power is the pana GH series - only because it has focused on the video niche and done it well. Rumored GH3 video specs look impressive and should keep it ahead of everything in the price range.

However, I do think m43 will slow down quite a bit as larger sensor cameras/lenses shrink and innovate. NEX is looking good.

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ennemkay
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Re: 4/3rd's dying a slow death...
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

the timeframe for a successful run is finite for every type of camera and, moreover, every technology and product. m43 still has a few good years. i love my e-pl2 but yeah it's getting harder to find reasons to use it over the nex (and i only have a nex-3). it seems like for long telephoto lenses pens still have advantages in both weight and price, though. suprisingly sony's shorter zooms and primes are pretty competitively priced and sized, though. also the pen has ibis.

but yeah it hurts that most of the industry went aps-c. if canon at least had gone 1.5" or m43, then casual shoppers would have gained some confidence in the smaller sensor, since then both nikon and canon, the two heavyweights would have endorsed that direction.

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ennemkay
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Re: 4/3rd's dying a slow death...
In reply to tesilab, Sep 13, 2012

m43 will ultimately be "squeezed" out (many years down the road) by aps-c and the coming wave of 1"-sensored compacts. i'm sure both panasonic and olympus are fully prepared for this and have already projected a pretty accurate timeframe of success with m43. who knows, maybe they'll both transition to large sensor compacts and bridge cameras, at that time, given their experience with m43 and cameras like the lx5, xz-1, and fz150. olympus will probably also move to creating mostly lenses for other systems though.

tesilab wrote:

If anything, APS-C is getting squeezed between m43 and ff.

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verybiglebowski
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Re: A rising tide floats all boats...
In reply to Everdog, Sep 13, 2012

Everdog wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

MFT, with its larger DOF, yields more keepers.

But then again, a shallow DOF APS-C pic is more impressive.

You can shrink DoF with software.
It is impossible to fix a ruined shot with shallow DoF.

This is why Sony now has a shallow DoF effect in many of their cameras. You can use a wide DoF, get a keeper and add the shallow DoF in post.

There is still not an easy way to simulate shallow or narrow DOF. The effect you mention is only easy settings for users who doesn't want to learn about relation between FL and aperture. (If you don't have on mind miniature effect, but that is a different story).

You can blur the background in certain circumstances but almost always you need to mask it and usually that is not an easy task. Think about portrait with some hair in the wind i.e.

Also, blurring the background is an linear operation. You can add circular gradient in the mask, but it is still quite linear. Optical blurriness has a complex look and software so far is not able to simulate it easily. This might and probably will change in the future, but it will be hard to come close to the realistic shallow DOF, as that depends on the shot composition, light conditions, patterns and colors. (assuming that FL can be reported properly via EXIF).
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ennemkay
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Re: A rising tide floats all boats...
In reply to verybiglebowski, Sep 13, 2012

sony's "background defocus" function takes two shots and combines them to create background blur in its small-sensor compacts. it's not perfect though... if you look closely, you can tell it's not true shallow dof. but it's pretty cool, and again, sony's doing it, not panasonic.

This is why Sony now has a shallow DoF effect in many of their cameras. You can use a wide DoF, get a keeper and add the shallow DoF in post.

There is still not an easy way to simulate shallow or narrow DOF. The effect you mention is only easy settings for users who doesn't want to learn about relation between FL and aperture. (If you don't have on mind miniature effect, but that is a different story).

You can blur the background in certain circumstances but almost always you need to mask it and usually that is not an easy task. Think about portrait with some hair in the wind i.e.

Also, blurring the background is an linear operation. You can add circular gradient in the mask, but it is still quite linear. Optical blurriness has a complex look and software so far is not able to simulate it easily. This might and probably will change in the future, but it will be hard to come close to the realistic shallow DOF, as that depends on the shot composition, light conditions, patterns and colors. (assuming that FL can be reported properly via EXIF).
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nevercat
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this is totaly nonsense
In reply to Old Pirate, Sep 13, 2012

I'm a Nex user (Nex 5) and I like the Nex system. It is capable of taking great pictures. I think Sony is doing a great job with every new Nex camera and lenses.
For me the Nex system is the best mirrorless system camera there is.
But you will never hear me telling that an other system is a bad system.
The Q mirrorless is great for people who wants a real pocketable camera

The Nikon 1 serie is great for people who want more control and fast AF in a not to big camera.

The m43 is a great camera for many, it has the best native lens collection and combines good quality and a low price

The APS cameras (Sony, Canon, Pentax and Fuji) will there for the large group of people who want the best IQ at a not to high price
The FF mirrorless will always be a niche camera at a high price

For all these cameras there will be a place, I find it hilarious how people are telling that brand x will die, just for not being the best selling camera.

I think that the only system that will loose a lot af followers will be the DSLR. In about 5 years the mirrorless will overtake the DSLR, but even then some people will still buy the DSLR as some ar still buying film SLRS

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