E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm

Started Sep 2, 2012 | Discussions
Michael J Davis
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E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
Sep 2, 2012

I have been using the Panny 7-14mm lens for 20 months with my Panasonic G1, with very satisfactory results. Of course the Panny camera corrects chromatic aberration.

Last Thursday, I was out with the E-M5 doing some interior architectural photography, and in one room in particular, (though it was apparent elsewhere), I got the problems shown:-

The first is a one quarter crop (top left hand corner) of a room in which the light sources were included in the shot.

The second, in the same room is a reduced whole frame where the lights are not visible in the frame:-

I am horrified with these results and wonder if it be the nature of the lighting (Mercury vapour perhaps?) - because I have no idea how to eliminate such results. Normal chromatic aberration techniques don't seem to work in this case (in some bracketed exposures the purple seems outside the gamut of the captured image.)

Obviously I didn't have my G1 with me to carry out a controlled test.

Any ideas, please?

Mike
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kermitG9
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Lens flare is not CA !
In reply to Michael J Davis, Sep 2, 2012

You've correctly mentioned lens flare.. and then you change topic to talk about CA (?!). Both are totally unrelated from a "optical" perspective: Note that CA will manifest itself by colouring hard edges that show high contrast.

So CA correction would not have fixed it.. and your problem would have occured on your Pana camera too.

A question : Did you use any filter on your lens ?

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bgalb
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to Michael J Davis, Sep 2, 2012

The problem is pretty thoroughly covered in this thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=42391825
with ways to brush out the offending purple areas.

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Bob Tullis
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to Michael J Davis, Sep 2, 2012

It's the achille's heel of the lens, that lens flare (strong light sources in or just out of frame). It takes extra shielding effort, if it can be avoided at all.

When I used the 7-14 on the E-P2, I didn't quite notice this (probably for not putting it in such conditions). When I acquired one (7-14) again it was on the E-M5, where street lights, cross walk signs (at night), and the sun shows this condition. Which makes me wonder if it acts the same on a Panasonic body (does Panasonic have some in-camera mojo to deal with this, to some degree?).

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papillon_65
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I've never seen it as bad as that before...
In reply to Michael J Davis, Sep 2, 2012

not on any camera. I get the odd blob now and again but I can usually deal with in PP.
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dko22
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to Michael J Davis, Sep 2, 2012

seems to be the third thread on this in about 24 hrs and quite a lot before. I have the issue with both my Olympus cameras, the E-M5 and the Pen mini. I did not have it with the GH2 or G1 (or it was greatly reduced). So there is something specific to some or all Oly cameras. . There have been one or two suggestions why more reflections do get in and Olympus are aware but I doubt they can do anything much. Plenty of suggestions (including my own) dotted across these threads as to how to deal.

David

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Anders W
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to dko22, Sep 2, 2012

dko22 wrote:

seems to be the third thread on this in about 24 hrs and quite a lot before. I have the issue with both my Olympus cameras, the E-M5 and the Pen mini. I did not have it with the GH2 or G1 (or it was greatly reduced). So there is something specific to some or all Oly cameras. . There have been one or two suggestions why more reflections do get in and Olympus are aware but I doubt they can do anything much. Plenty of suggestions (including my own) dotted across these threads as to how to deal.

Hmm. This worries me quite a bit although I have used my E-M5 with my 7-14 quite a bit without spontaneously encountering the issue yet. Can you see the effect, in this case the blue blobs already on the EVF/LCD? Or does it come as a complete surprise when you look at the image afterwards. I would of course expect the effect to be visible beforehand although depending on the situation it may of course still pass unnoticed.

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Anders W
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to Anders W, Sep 3, 2012

Anders W wrote:

dko22 wrote:

seems to be the third thread on this in about 24 hrs and quite a lot before. I have the issue with both my Olympus cameras, the E-M5 and the Pen mini. I did not have it with the GH2 or G1 (or it was greatly reduced). So there is something specific to some or all Oly cameras. . There have been one or two suggestions why more reflections do get in and Olympus are aware but I doubt they can do anything much. Plenty of suggestions (including my own) dotted across these threads as to how to deal.

Hmm. This worries me quite a bit although I have used my E-M5 with my 7-14 quite a bit without spontaneously encountering the issue yet. Can you see the effect, in this case the blue blobs already on the EVF/LCD? Or does it come as a complete surprise when you look at the image afterwards. I would of course expect the effect to be visible beforehand although depending on the situation it may of course still pass unnoticed.

Update: I just did a quick check with a scene similar to that shown in the OP (lamps, halogen spots in my case, inside or at the edge of the frame). I didn't actually try to shoot but just looked at the scene via the EVF using both my E-M5 and my G1. I got patterned reflections (ghost images of the lamp configuration) just like those in the OP (except for the color, which I suspect may vary with the circumstances). The reflections looked just the same and were about equally visible with both cameras. So I'd be inclined to think that this is purely a lens issue rather than an interaction between the lens and the camera (i.e., my preliminary findings didn't suggest that this would be any worse with 7-14 + Oly body than with 7-14 + Pany body).

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dko22
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to Anders W, Sep 3, 2012

Anders W wrote:

dko22 wrote:

seems to be the third thread on this in about 24 hrs and quite a lot before. I have the issue with both my Olympus cameras, the E-M5 and the Pen mini. I did not have it with the GH2 or G1 (or it was greatly reduced). So there is something specific to some or all Oly cameras. . There have been one or two suggestions why more reflections do get in and Olympus are aware but I doubt they can do anything much. Plenty of suggestions (including my own) dotted across these threads as to how to deal.

Hmm. This worries me quite a bit although I have used my E-M5 with my 7-14 quite a bit without spontaneously encountering the issue yet. Can you see the effect, in this case the blue blobs already on the EVF/LCD? Or does it come as a complete surprise when you look at the image afterwards. I would of course expect the effect to be visible beforehand although depending on the situation it may of course still pass unnoticed.

Anders, the effect is always visible beforehand as you would expect. This is an easy way to reproduce - a high contrast but quite dark scene.

the hand job! Same image but reflections gone. More of a challenge if you;re already at 7mm but shows what's happening at least!

now just pan slightly to the right. The metering changes to reflect a greater proportion of the light area in the frame. The blotch more or less vanishes (but re-appears at the base of the plant which lightroom desat. brush can quickly deal with).

In two years of using this lens with Panny G cameras, I never saw anything like this, yet some have maintained that it is not manufacturer specific in which case there may be some sample variation. The images where you have the flare connected to lots of individual light sources like lamps are likely to be the biggest challenge (and you suggest this also affects the GH2 in your lamps test which is not a test I tried when I had this camera). In normal use as an outdoor lens, I have not yet encountered any problems with the E-M5 though clearly some users have also seen the splodges here in high contrast scenes. Certainly worth trying to reduce contrast here by exposing more for the highlights than the shadows or use an ND grad. I'd really love to know what causes it though!

David

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Michael J Davis
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Re: Lens flare is not CA !
In reply to kermitG9, Sep 3, 2012

kermitG9 wrote:

You've correctly mentioned lens flare.. and then you change topic to talk about CA (?!).

Yes, I do understand the difference - I just wondered if the coloured patches could be resolved by CA removal techniques.

Both are totally unrelated from a "optical" perspective: Note that CA will manifest itself by colouring hard edges that show high contrast.

So CA correction would not have fixed it.. and your problem would have occured on your Pana camera too.

It's odd that I've never come across such severe problems on the G1.

A question : Did you use any filter on your lens ?

None.

Thanks for replying

Mike
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Michael J Davis
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to bgalb, Sep 3, 2012

bgalb wrote:

The problem is pretty thoroughly covered in this thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=42391825
with ways to brush out the offending purple areas.

Damn! I don't read the forum for a couple of days and someone asks exactly the same question!!

Thanks - interesting that others seem to notice it more with the E-M5 - I'll have to check out the sensor reflection possibility.

Mike
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Michael J Davis
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to Bob Tullis, Sep 3, 2012

Bob Tullis wrote:

It's the achille's heel of the lens, that lens flare (strong light sources in or just out of frame). It takes extra shielding effort, if it can be avoided at all.

Oh yes, I've been dealing with it knowingly on the Panny for 20 months, it's just that I've never seen such a severe, saturated, different colour, nor such a clear pattern of the light source before.

When I used the 7-14 on the E-P2, I didn't quite notice this (probably for not putting it in such conditions). When I acquired one (7-14) again it was on the E-M5, where street lights, cross walk signs (at night), and the sun shows this condition. Which makes me wonder if it acts the same on a Panasonic body (does Panasonic have some in-camera mojo to deal with this, to some degree?).

Exactly what (and why) I'm asking.

Thanks, Bob!

Mike
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Michael J Davis
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to dko22, Sep 3, 2012

dko22 wrote:

seems to be the third thread on this in about 24 hrs and quite a lot before.

Yes, I've been aware of (and may have contributed to) earlier threads, but this is different. (I missed the thread 36hrs earlier as I'd been afk.)

I have the issue with both my Olympus cameras, the E-M5 and the Pen mini. I did not have it with the GH2 or G1 (or it was greatly reduced). So there is something specific to some or all Oly cameras. . There have been one or two suggestions why more reflections do get in and Olympus are aware but I doubt they can do anything much. Plenty of suggestions (including my own) dotted across these threads as to how to deal.

Yes, it's how I would & will too. Thanks David!

Mike
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Michael J Davis
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to Anders W, Sep 3, 2012

Anders W wrote:

dko22 wrote:

seems to be the third thread on this in about 24 hrs and quite a lot before. I have the issue with both my Olympus cameras, the E-M5 and the Pen mini. I did not have it with the GH2 or G1 (or it was greatly reduced). So there is something specific to some or all Oly cameras. . There have been one or two suggestions why more reflections do get in and Olympus are aware but I doubt they can do anything much. Plenty of suggestions (including my own) dotted across these threads as to how to deal.

So far - with the other coincident thread, it seems that sensor reflection might be worth checking further.

Hmm. This worries me quite a bit although I have used my E-M5 with my 7-14 quite a bit without spontaneously encountering the issue yet. Can you see the effect, in this case the blue blobs already on the EVF/LCD? Or does it come as a complete surprise when you look at the image afterwards. I would of course expect the effect to be visible beforehand although depending on the situation it may of course still pass unnoticed.

I did a quick check when I saw the result, and I've just set one up on an incandescent light source. With the source in the frame (14mm) (near corner) I get a purple-ish image of the filament a few degrees towards the centre frame and a larger blurred doubled image in blue-white and yellow-orange approximately on the diagonal.

Clearly we can do lots of tests to plot where the images and coma are distributed.

My real concern was regarding the intensity of the double image and the depth of colour, and wondered if a waveband of the light source was more subject to such flare/sensor reflection in this camera/lens combination than the G1.

Thanks Anders,

Mike
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Michael J Davis
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to Anders W, Sep 3, 2012

Anders W wrote:

Anders W wrote:

dko22 wrote:

seems to be the third thread on this in about 24 hrs and quite a lot before. I have the issue with both my Olympus cameras, the E-M5 and the Pen mini. I did not have it with the GH2 or G1 (or it was greatly reduced). So there is something specific to some or all Oly cameras. . There have been one or two suggestions why more reflections do get in and Olympus are aware but I doubt they can do anything much. Plenty of suggestions (including my own) dotted across these threads as to how to deal.

Hmm. This worries me quite a bit although I have used my E-M5 with my 7-14 quite a bit without spontaneously encountering the issue yet. Can you see the effect, in this case the blue blobs already on the EVF/LCD? Or does it come as a complete surprise when you look at the image afterwards. I would of course expect the effect to be visible beforehand although depending on the situation it may of course still pass unnoticed.

Update: I just did a quick check with a scene similar to that shown in the OP (lamps, halogen spots in my case, inside or at the edge of the frame). I didn't actually try to shoot but just looked at the scene via the EVF using both my E-M5 and my G1. I got patterned reflections (ghost images of the lamp configuration) just like those in the OP (except for the color, which I suspect may vary with the circumstances). The reflections looked just the same and were about equally visible with both cameras. So I'd be inclined to think that this is purely a lens issue rather than an interaction between the lens and the camera (i.e., my preliminary findings didn't suggest that this would be any worse with 7-14 + Oly body than with 7-14 + Pany body).

Thanks again - unfortunately I won't be able to return to the building to repeat the shots with the G1. But I will do a side by side comparison as you have just to see, when I get time.

Mike
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Michael J Davis
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to dko22, Sep 3, 2012

dko22 wrote:

Anders W wrote:

dko22 wrote:

seems to be the third thread on this in about 24 hrs and quite a lot before. I have the issue with both my Olympus cameras, the E-M5 and the Pen mini. I did not have it with the GH2 or G1 (or it was greatly reduced). So there is something specific to some or all Oly cameras. . There have been one or two suggestions why more reflections do get in and Olympus are aware but I doubt they can do anything much. Plenty of suggestions (including my own) dotted across these threads as to how to deal.

Hmm. This worries me quite a bit although I have used my E-M5 with my 7-14 quite a bit without spontaneously encountering the issue yet. Can you see the effect, in this case the blue blobs already on the EVF/LCD? Or does it come as a complete surprise when you look at the image afterwards. I would of course expect the effect to be visible beforehand although depending on the situation it may of course still pass unnoticed.

Anders, the effect is always visible beforehand as you would expect. This is an easy way to reproduce - a high contrast but quite dark scene.

the hand job! Same image but reflections gone. More of a challenge if you;re already at 7mm but shows what's happening at least!

now just pan slightly to the right. The metering changes to reflect a greater proportion of the light area in the frame. The blotch more or less vanishes (but re-appears at the base of the plant which lightroom desat. brush can quickly deal with).

Yes, those are the type of results I've been getting and dealing with. Normal with this type of lens....

In two years of using this lens with Panny G cameras, I never saw anything like this, yet some have maintained that it is not manufacturer specific in which case there may be some sample variation. The images where you have the flare connected to lots of individual light sources like lamps are likely to be the biggest challenge (and you suggest this also affects the GH2 in your lamps test which is not a test I tried when I had this camera). In normal use as an outdoor lens, I have not yet encountered any problems with the E-M5 though clearly some users have also seen the splodges here in high contrast scenes. Certainly worth trying to reduce contrast here by exposing more for the highlights than the shadows or use an ND grad. I'd really love to know what causes it though!

I'm used to removing flare - or leaving it as an effect as in the first photo below (look at the top edge above the window!). Until last week it's been a small price for such a lovely lens.

This one required a lot of defringing and flare spot removal:-

...and this was fairly simple - just a couple of highlights from the lights on the far wall:-

I guess I'll have to be more sensitive to what's in the vf, rather than assuming I can deal with it later!

Mike
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Michael J Davis
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to Michael J Davis, Sep 3, 2012

I said:

I'm used to removing flare - or leaving it as an effect as in the first photo below (look at the top edge above the window!). Until last week it's been a small price for such a lovely lens.

On reflection (pun intended) I think that's not a lens problem, but a compound reflection from the acrylic cabinet of the window bars.

Mike
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Brooks Lester
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What your pictures are showing is actually
In reply to Michael J Davis, Sep 3, 2012

For your information

Best

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Surefoot
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This is ghosting, not exactly lens flare
In reply to Michael J Davis, Sep 3, 2012

these are reflections from the sensor on the back lens element. My 7-14 behaves correctly on my GF1, and i seem to have "purple flares" on my OMD, with the same lens in the same conditions. I think it's a coating problem on the 7-14...

Any situation with a strong sun backlighting the scene, from an angle (not directly in front) will create a very strong, and visible purple "ghost" image with the OMD. Never happened to me with the GF1...

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Anders W
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Re: E-M5 flare problems with Pany 7-14mm
In reply to Michael J Davis, Sep 4, 2012

Michael J Davis wrote:

Anders W wrote:

dko22 wrote:

seems to be the third thread on this in about 24 hrs and quite a lot before. I have the issue with both my Olympus cameras, the E-M5 and the Pen mini. I did not have it with the GH2 or G1 (or it was greatly reduced). So there is something specific to some or all Oly cameras. . There have been one or two suggestions why more reflections do get in and Olympus are aware but I doubt they can do anything much. Plenty of suggestions (including my own) dotted across these threads as to how to deal.

So far - with the other coincident thread, it seems that sensor reflection might be worth checking further.

Hmm. This worries me quite a bit although I have used my E-M5 with my 7-14 quite a bit without spontaneously encountering the issue yet. Can you see the effect, in this case the blue blobs already on the EVF/LCD? Or does it come as a complete surprise when you look at the image afterwards. I would of course expect the effect to be visible beforehand although depending on the situation it may of course still pass unnoticed.

I did a quick check when I saw the result, and I've just set one up on an incandescent light source. With the source in the frame (14mm) (near corner) I get a purple-ish image of the filament a few degrees towards the centre frame and a larger blurred doubled image in blue-white and yellow-orange approximately on the diagonal.

Clearly we can do lots of tests to plot where the images and coma are distributed.

My real concern was regarding the intensity of the double image and the depth of colour, and wondered if a waveband of the light source was more subject to such flare/sensor reflection in this camera/lens combination than the G1.

Thanks Anders,

Thanks to you as well. Here's a little contribution to our joint testing efforts. I shot the same scene I just looked at through the EVF yesterday, using the G1 as well as the E-M5. Here are the results at 7 mm f/4 with the halogen spots actually included in the frame to give you an idea of the entire pattern. The reflections, however, look essentially the same if I change the framing so that the spots are just outside the frame.

Here's with the G1

and here's with the E-M5

As you can see, the pattern of reflections is essentially the same (I didn't bother to set up a tripod which may account for any minor differences) and about equally strong with both cameras. But many of the E-M5 reflections are significantly more bluish than those from the G1. This in turn makes them more noticeable and may explain why you and others tend to see the problem more often with the E-M5 (and other Oly bodies) than with Pany bodies. The images were shot in RAW and processed in LR 4.1 using the same WB settings so it's not a simple WB issue.

The question is how we can explain the color difference. I have no really good answer at the moment, merely loose ideas. I am not convinced that "digital sensor reflection" idea is the right hypothesis. Although that idea might readily explain the color difference (differently colored sensor toppings or the like), I have difficulties imagining how it could give rise to the rather complicated pattern of reflections that we see, with the same configuration (the lamps) repeated several times in different places and at different sizes. How "digital sensor reflection" usually manifests itself is described here

http://thesybersite.com/minolta/sensor-reflection/

and it is so far known to be a problem with some older lenses, without anti-reflective coatings on the back side of the lens elements, not with new lenses specifically made for digital cameras.

One more thing that I should perhaps mention, just in case: In both images, there is another set of reflections (again four blobs) further down the frame (the above ones are crops from the top). These are pretty large and greenish in the output from both cameras.

 Anders W's gear list:Anders W's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH +21 more
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