Fixed lens 4/3 compact?

Started Aug 22, 2012 | Discussions
Northsky
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Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
Aug 22, 2012

Something like Canon G1 X? Any rumors?

My menu:

  • collapsible 27-120mm or 200mm equiv.

  • integrated EVF

  • RAW files with geom/CA/vignetting correction

  • flat design, max 50-60mm deep

Add-on EVF ruins the idea of a compact, and bridge/superzooms are too deep/fat to pocket/shoulderbag.

Canon PowerShot G1 X
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Camp Freddy
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Re: Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
In reply to Northsky, Oct 18, 2012

I was looking for the earlier thread on this : The possible advantage is a lens which collapses more, but the disadvantage is the optics may suffer in the short flange-focal plane legnth and already highly corrected  which is the key to mFT working.

It may end up being pretty chunky and soft on the edges and a bit slow on the long end, but as a single lens solution with a digital crop zoom in addition, it would as you say, knock socks of the "bridge generation"

However with 1" sensors likely to be the compact's future outside of in-phone cameras and in camera phone products, then the benefits vs competition would be short lived.

However, Without the sony ownership of Oly i think they may have gone this way with a single, fixed lens mFT. No idea about panasonic.

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captura
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Re: Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
In reply to Camp Freddy, Oct 19, 2012

How about a fixed lens FF compact?

Sony RX1

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sony-cybershot-dsc-rx1/

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JosephScha
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Re: Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
In reply to Northsky, Oct 19, 2012

I sure hope not.  Collapsible lens: great.  Non-removable lens: not great.

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js

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George Paulides
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Re: Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
In reply to Northsky, Oct 19, 2012

Northsky wrote:

Something like Canon G1 X? Any rumors?

Then why no buy the Canon if you want the zoom?

I doubt you will see a m43 camera with a non-interchangeable zoom lens. Possibility of a high quality fixed lens (equivalent to a 35mm FOV) m43 is more likely.

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Camp Freddy
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probably poorer IQ but better than sub 1" generation compacts
In reply to George Paulides, Oct 19, 2012

As I say I don't think a zoom lens fixed on a mFT which retracts small enough to have a plus point over say 12-50 etc, would offer any where near as good optics

However, as with the other new larger format fixed lens compacts, it would be better than the sub 1" compacts.

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oeoek
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Re: Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
In reply to Northsky, Oct 19, 2012

I am probably in a slightly different user group, having an Om-D already. When I bought the Om-D, I was torn between the canon G1-X and and the Oly M43 offerings, Looking at the size, the fixed zoomlens did not offer much size profits, the G1 X was as hard to pocked as any Pen with its standard zoom (just overall to big and heavy). If I have to carry the camera in a small pouch, it might just as well be an interchangeable lens camera.

I would however be interested in a very small M43 sensor fixed lens camera, even if it came with a prime instead of a zoom. Key feature: size. Shoehorn the M43 sensor if the OM-D into the smallest possible body, bolt on a small zoom or even a 17 or 20mm prime, and if it is the size of something like the canon S95, I might very well be interested, depending on the price.

The trick here is I would like a smaller, really pocket-able camera for those occasions where even the smaller sized pen's might not be an option. Its main attraction over my present S95 would be the similar AND similar work-flow in PP for both my camera's.

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eques
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Re: probably poorer IQ but better than sub 1" generation compacts
In reply to Camp Freddy, Oct 19, 2012

Camp Freddy wrote:

As I say I don't think a zoom lens fixed on a mFT which retracts small enough to have a plus point over say 12-50 etc, would offer any where near as good optics

However, as with the other new larger format fixed lens compacts, it would be better than the sub 1" compacts.

ANY collapsible lens could be smaller than the Oly 12-50 and a good one could have better IQ, So why not?

A mFT camera with the lens equivalent of the Sony RX100 (12-50mm, F2-4) a size of about the RX1 and the build quality of the RXes ... . Would be ideal for ca 80% of the photos I make. If you add built in EVF and tilt/shift screen ...

Too beautiful a dream? Peter

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AndyGM
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Re: Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
In reply to Northsky, Oct 19, 2012

Pentax have built extra slim compact cameras in the past, where the rear lens element slid to the left of right, to make space from the front elements to collapse in. So it might still be possible to make a fixed lens m4/3rd compact with the normal register distance.

The startup time is going to be a pig though...

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Vlad S
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Then what's the benefit of 4/3 sensor? (nt)
In reply to Northsky, Oct 19, 2012

Northsky wrote:

Something like Canon G1 X? Any rumors?

My menu:

  • collapsible 27-120mm or 200mm equiv.

  • integrated EVF

  • RAW files with geom/CA/vignetting correction

  • flat design, max 50-60mm deep

Add-on EVF ruins the idea of a compact, and bridge/superzooms are too deep/fat to pocket/shoulderbag.

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rpm40
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Re: Then what's the benefit of 4/3 sensor? (nt)
In reply to Vlad S, Oct 19, 2012

As far as big sensors in small bodies go, Sony really hit a home run with the rx100. I think it is a good example of the largest sensor you can cram into a body while still keeping it PANTS pocketable (jacket pocketable is not what most people mean by pocketable- by that standard, my e-pl1 is pocketable).

The 1" sensor handily bests other compacts at high iso, the lens/sensor combo can capture pretty impressive resolution, and you can fit it in a dress shirt or pair of jeans with no need to tote a camera case.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-cybershot-dsc-rx100/images/compared-smallcams-top.jpg

I doubt an m4/3 camera of the same style would remain pocketable- it would compete with the likes of the G1X. If it were possible to make a pocketable m4/3 at all, I think it would need to have a fixed focal length, something like the digma dp series.

If they managed to produce a pocketable m4/3 with a fixed 35mm eqivalent 1.8, I'd definitely take a look.

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Trollshavethebestcandy
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Re: Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
In reply to Northsky, Oct 19, 2012

Think Fuji  x100 but 24, 35, 50 mm equiv. fast fixed prime with optical viewfinder and no EVF but a back screen.

Leaf shutter! IBIS

square sensor!

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Sergey Borachev
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Re: Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
In reply to Northsky, Oct 21, 2012

Great idea, but don't make it cheap and try to compete with the endangered low-end compacts.  We still do not have a full function and high-performance fixed lens compact with a larger sensor.  This is still an untapped market, except for the Canon G1X, Fuji X100 and some rangefinder-like digital cameras with all their serious limitations in IQ, features, balance and/or value.

M43 has no answer at all for the Sony (NEX-6 + 16-50mm) kit, a small and convenient all-in-one high-end camera.  Nobody else has either. A fixed lens compact from Olympus or Panasonic exactly like this kit would be awesome, but with a M43 PDAF sensor from Sony, i.e. built-in hi-res EVF, PDAF+CDAF, 10 fps, built-in flash, tilting (4:3) LCD, HDR, Focus Peaking, Wi-Fi, a proper grip and also a very compact (when collapsed) 24-75mm equiv motorised zoom.  It should be even lighter than the Sony kit, due to the smaller sensor (and therefore also a smaller lens) and the removal of the lens mount. Or, it should be possible to put in a 24-85mm equivalent lens with the same dimensions given the smaller M43 sensor.

A price of $850 should be achievable based on the pricing of the Sony NEX-6 kit.  This will have features and performance comparable to APS-C DSLRs and a general purpose zoom. Unlike previous "bridge" cameras that emulate low-end DSLRs, this will emulate a high-end MILC.  Why should bridge cameras continue to try to be like DSLRS when DSLRs themselves are increasingly avoided and taken over by MILCs??  Why not have a MILC bridge camera?

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Alexis D
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Re: Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
In reply to Sergey Borachev, Oct 22, 2012

Sergey Borachev wrote:

Great idea, but don't make it cheap and try to compete with the endangered low-end compacts.  We still do not have a full function and high-performance fixed lens compact with a larger sensor.  This is still an untapped market, except for the Canon G1X, Fuji X100 and some rangefinder-like digital cameras with all their serious limitations in IQ, features, balance and/or value.

M43 has no answer at all for the Sony (NEX-6 + 16-50mm) kit, a small and convenient all-in-one high-end camera.  Nobody else has either. A fixed lens compact from Olympus or Panasonic exactly like this kit would be awesome, but with a M43 PDAF sensor from Sony, i.e. built-in hi-res EVF, PDAF+CDAF, 10 fps, built-in flash, tilting (4:3) LCD, HDR, Focus Peaking, Wi-Fi, a proper grip and also a very compact (when collapsed) 24-75mm equiv motorised zoom.  It should be even lighter than the Sony kit, due to the smaller sensor (and therefore also a smaller lens) and the removal of the lens mount. Or, it should be possible to put in a 24-85mm equivalent lens with the same dimensions given the smaller M43 sensor.

A price of $850 should be achievable based on the pricing of the Sony NEX-6 kit.  This will have features and performance comparable to APS-C DSLRs and a general purpose zoom. Unlike previous "bridge" cameras that emulate low-end DSLRs, this will emulate a high-end MILC.  Why should bridge cameras continue to try to be like DSLRS when DSLRs themselves are increasingly avoided and taken over by MILCs??  Why not have a MILC bridge camera?

$850 sounds expensive for a fixed lens compact, but it looks better than the Canon G1X which was $800 when first released.

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Camp Freddy
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Re: probably poorer IQ but better than sub 1" generation compacts
In reply to eques, Oct 22, 2012

Collapsable limits the thickness of the lenses and to some extent the arrangement: I dont see it getting much smaller than the collapsed kit 14-42 without some loss of quality.

But you are right to say about what you take: people should do an EXIF stat's run on their libraries when they decide what next camera, lens or indeed 2nd camera to have

As a second camera an mFT fixed lens with 12-50 f2-4 would be ideal for me, but how achievable that whole range would be is questionable.

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Camp Freddy
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Re: Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
In reply to Sergey Borachev, Oct 22, 2012

have Leica not just released an FF single fixed focal legnth compact ?

is it any smaller than M series ?

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Sergey Borachev
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Re: Fixed lens 4/3 compact?
In reply to Camp Freddy, Oct 22, 2012

Camp Freddy wrote:

have Leica not just released an FF single fixed focal legnth compact ?

is it any smaller than M series ?

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I was talking about a fixed lens compact not a fixed local length compact, one that is convenient, versatile and fully featured. Leicas may have really nice IQ and are small, but they are way too limited or limiting in terms of features compared to the compact I was talking about.

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Franka T.L.
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Made sense ... I say
In reply to Northsky, Oct 22, 2012

I've heard people champion for the LX or the EX2F, citing the capability for those VF or add on or , but I tend to agree that as compact and everyday carry around goes. the cam need to be all in one without the need for something else add on, the simpler , the better. The RX-100 pretty much demonstrate that philosophy well. A pretty decent spec while making it still pocketable.

Sony now had the RX1 which of course is the other extreme as far as compacts goes. But the package really demonstrate how compact the camera side of things can be ( with both RX that is , disregarding the lens ). In old days when I use film. I never need to worry about the film I used for compacts vs that of the SLR. I can choose to use the same film. I would have no problem using my old Ricoh GR-1 vs that of my Contax Aria + Distagon 28mm/2.8. I am sure my Fujifilm Reala would function well in both and deliver a frame that the film allows.

in similar catch, a 4/3 sensored compact would be a natural companion to the M4/3 and 4/3 system users. And of course in its own right would be a welcomed one too. Witness the Sigma DP-1M/2M, the Sony RX-100, The Ricoh GR-D, There is a market for good pocketable compacts. that would aspire to the more demanding people and also those from DC looking for quality. In fact when Sony announced the RX-100, it had pretty much sidestep the LX-7 / EX-2F / XZ-2 and establish a whole new plateau of how a compact can be. That plaetau right now had only 1 occupant and can benefit with another, a 4/3 sensored one it can be

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