Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...

Started Aug 18, 2012 | Discussions
Sunshine_boy
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Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
Aug 18, 2012

If you are interested in finding out how a non-EXR compact camera can cope with extreme contrasty situations, you can take a look at this thread in the Nikon forum where I posted several shots taken with the P7100 under quite difficult lighting conditions, a mixture of shadows, bright sunshine and clear skies.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1007&message=42289315

Although I appreciate that the Fuji EXR method works, I am trying to demonstrate that other methods/techniques work too, without the hassle of the EXR complexities and loss of resolution.

(The posted images are reduced to 1024 from full res)
--
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jcmarfilph
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to Sunshine_boy, Aug 19, 2012

Sunshine_boy wrote:

If you are interested in finding out how a non-EXR compact camera can cope with extreme contrasty situations, you can take a look at this thread in the Nikon forum where I posted several shots taken with the P7100 under quite difficult lighting conditions, a mixture of shadows, bright sunshine and clear skies.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1007&message=42289315

Although I appreciate that the Fuji EXR method works, I am trying to demonstrate that other methods/techniques work too, without the hassle of the EXR complexities and loss of resolution.

(The posted images are reduced to 1024 from full res)

How can we see if there is loss in resolution if you resized them to 1024? Hiding it?

Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

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Michael Melb AU
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to Sunshine_boy, Aug 19, 2012

Hi Sunshine_,

Do you own anything EXR equipped? If yes - what is it and how do you see it perform against Nikon? If not - why bothering?
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Sunshine_boy
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to jcmarfilph, Aug 19, 2012

jcmarfilph wrote:

How can we see if there is loss in resolution if you resized them to 1024? Hiding it?

LOL!... You are incredible Joms!...

I have nothing to hide. I just didn't want to upload 12 images of over 4mb each. But, just to satisfy your suspicious mind, here are 3 of them posted here. I hope DPR do not mind...

Click on '(Original)'

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jcmarfilph
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to Sunshine_boy, Aug 19, 2012

Sunshine_boy wrote:

jcmarfilph wrote:

How can we see if there is loss in resolution if you resized them to 1024? Hiding it?

LOL!... You are incredible Joms!...

I have nothing to hide. I just didn't want to upload 12 images of over 4mb each. But, just to satisfy your suspicious mind, here are 3 of them posted here. I hope DPR do not mind...

Sorry Sunshine, despite of the sunshine your pictures did not shine. It may have handled the sky fine but I can see noisy shadowed areas and loss of resolution on hair and even on grass.

Click on '(Original)'
pr: galleries/6001724030/photos/2162196
pr: galleries/6001724030/photos/2162197
pr: galleries/6001724030/photos/2162198

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Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

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Sunshine_boy
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to Michael Melb AU, Aug 19, 2012

Michael Melb AU wrote:

Hi Sunshine_,

Do you own anything EXR equipped? If yes - what is it and how do you see it perform against Nikon? If not - why bothering?

Hi Michael,

No, I do not own any EXR camera. I stopped at the S6500 and F31 because I wasn't sure at all that EXR was the only way to tackle reasonably well the DR issues. I bought (then) the Nikon D60 (dslr) which offers the ADL functionality and I could see that the results were quite good even then (2008). So, what Fuji tried to do with the EXR, Nikon tried with their ADL. Of course, all photographers have their own techniques too to cope (to some extend) with blown highlights and contrasty conditions. I just was not prepared to accept that EXR, with all its complexities and conditional quirks was the only solution to better DR. It is 'a' solution but not the 'only' solution.

You must have read the countless arguments and suggestions of how best to use EXR and all the head scratching of many knowledgeable friends in this forum trying to analyze and predict what EXR does, accepting the loss of 50% resolution. My final conclusion was 'why buy trouble' if I could get similar or near similar results with more 'conventional' methods at full resolution. Hence my purchase of the P7100. I still enjoy (very much) my S6500 and F31 with which I get good results even in the very bright conditions we have here. I am just very disappointed that Fuji abandoned their Super CCD sensor (which put them at the top) for the EXR sensor that held them back over the last 4-5 years and allowed others to catch up with much more 'user friendly' solutions.

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Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

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Sunshine_boy
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to jcmarfilph, Aug 19, 2012

jcmarfilph wrote:

Sorry Sunshine, despite of the sunshine your pictures did not shine. It may have handled the sky fine but I can see noisy shadowed areas and loss of resolution on hair and even on grass.

You could make your point more convincing Joms if you could post SIMILAR shots taken with an EXR cam. I stress 'similar' hoping to see images of comparable scenes and not the one of the bird that I know you are so proud of (quite rightly) and with full exif data showing...

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Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to Sunshine_boy, Aug 19, 2012

There's nothing an EXR sensor can do that a SuperCCD SR II can't do 10 times better.

EXR has been a colossal failure for FUJIFILM.

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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to Sunshine_boy, Aug 19, 2012

Why the heck would DPR care what you upload??

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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to jcmarfilph, Aug 19, 2012

jcmarfilph wrote:

Sunshine_boy wrote:

jcmarfilph wrote:

How can we see if there is loss in resolution if you resized them to 1024? Hiding it?

LOL!... You are incredible Joms!...

I have nothing to hide. I just didn't want to upload 12 images of over 4mb each. But, just to satisfy your suspicious mind, here are 3 of them posted here. I hope DPR do not mind...

Sorry Sunshine, despite of the sunshine your pictures did not shine. It may have handled the sky fine but I can see noisy shadowed areas and loss of resolution on hair and even on grass.

An EXR camera would not even get close to this type of IQ.

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jcmarfilph
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to rattymouse, Aug 19, 2012

rattymouse wrote:

There's nothing an EXR sensor can do that a SuperCCD SR II can't do 10 times better.

EXR has been a colossal failure for FUJIFILM.

And yet you bought one with bonus ORBs just so you can add it to your collection.

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Sunshine_boy
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to rattymouse, Aug 19, 2012

rattymouse wrote:

Why the heck would DPR care what you upload??

Hi Ratty,

My comment was for posting the same 3 images twice. I understand that posting a photo more than once in any forum is not approved by DPR and I can understand why.

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Michael Melb AU
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to Sunshine_boy, Aug 19, 2012

Sunshine_boy wrote:

Hi Michael,

No, I do not own any EXR camera. I stopped at the S6500 and F31 because I wasn't sure at all that EXR was the only way to tackle reasonably well the DR issues. I bought (then) the Nikon D60 (dslr) which offers the ADL functionality and I could see that the results were quite good even then (2008). So, what Fuji tried to do with the EXR, Nikon tried with their ADL. Of course, all photographers have their own techniques too to cope (to some extend) with blown highlights and contrasty conditions. I just was not prepared to accept that EXR, with all its complexities and conditional quirks was the only solution to better DR. It is 'a' solution but not the 'only' solution.

You must have read the countless arguments and suggestions of how best to use EXR and all the head scratching of many knowledgeable friends in this forum trying to analyze and predict what EXR does, accepting the loss of 50% resolution. My final conclusion was 'why buy trouble' if I could get similar or near similar results with more 'conventional' methods at full resolution. Hence my purchase of the P7100. I still enjoy (very much) my S6500 and F31 with which I get good results even in the very bright conditions we have here. I am just very disappointed that Fuji abandoned their Super CCD sensor (which put them at the top) for the EXR sensor that held them back over the last 4-5 years and allowed others to catch up with much more 'user friendly' solutions.

-- hide signature --

Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

Honestly, I am getting a bit perplexed with how many people try to put EXR DR against DSLR in terms of image quality. Maybe Fuji does something right after all? My own position on this is that EXR DR is only a smart trick - for getting the camera to register wider brightness diapason it does not much for tone and color gradations. Definitely does not improve on old Super CCDs with that. My attitude towards EXR is generally positive - if Fujifilm finally manages to sort out this terrible mess with interface part of it. You are correct - it's not user friendly at the moment, and this Forum is a glorious tribute to the fact. EXR has definite potential to make life easier, and is at home with consumer compacts, but I would not imagine it's use in a "serious" DSLR. The one who can master DSLR exposure and transfer their skills all across the cameras they use does not need this gimmick. As for Nikon, or Lumix, or Canon superzooms - they are all in the same league by IQ and differ mostly in ergonomics and user-friendliness. Latest Fujifilm cameras are not on the top here - true

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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to jcmarfilph, Aug 19, 2012

jcmarfilph wrote:

rattymouse wrote:

There's nothing an EXR sensor can do that a SuperCCD SR II can't do 10 times better.

EXR has been a colossal failure for FUJIFILM.

And yet you bought one with bonus ORBs just so you can add it to your collection.

I have several EXR cameras and so know quite well what they cannot do. F70EXR, S205EXR and X10.

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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to Michael Melb AU, Aug 19, 2012

Michael Melb AU wrote:

Sunshine_boy wrote:

Hi Michael,

No, I do not own any EXR camera. I stopped at the S6500 and F31 because I wasn't sure at all that EXR was the only way to tackle reasonably well the DR issues. I bought (then) the Nikon D60 (dslr) which offers the ADL functionality and I could see that the results were quite good even then (2008). So, what Fuji tried to do with the EXR, Nikon tried with their ADL. Of course, all photographers have their own techniques too to cope (to some extend) with blown highlights and contrasty conditions. I just was not prepared to accept that EXR, with all its complexities and conditional quirks was the only solution to better DR. It is 'a' solution but not the 'only' solution.

You must have read the countless arguments and suggestions of how best to use EXR and all the head scratching of many knowledgeable friends in this forum trying to analyze and predict what EXR does, accepting the loss of 50% resolution. My final conclusion was 'why buy trouble' if I could get similar or near similar results with more 'conventional' methods at full resolution. Hence my purchase of the P7100. I still enjoy (very much) my S6500 and F31 with which I get good results even in the very bright conditions we have here. I am just very disappointed that Fuji abandoned their Super CCD sensor (which put them at the top) for the EXR sensor that held them back over the last 4-5 years and allowed others to catch up with much more 'user friendly' solutions.

EXR has been around 5 years and the interface has not been improved one bit . There has been zero improvements towards understanding or explaining EXR. Colossal failure.

-- hide signature --

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Please join and be part of the solution! Lives can be saved.

I fold under the name RattyM. > 77 Work units completed, BILLIONS of calculations done, all from a Dell laptop. Everyone can be part of the solution. You just have to get started.

 rattymouse's gear list:rattymouse's gear list
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jcmarfilph
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to Sunshine_boy, Aug 19, 2012

Sunshine_boy wrote:

jcmarfilph wrote:

Sorry Sunshine, despite of the sunshine your pictures did not shine. It may have handled the sky fine but I can see noisy shadowed areas and loss of resolution on hair and even on grass.

You could make your point more convincing Joms if you could post SIMILAR shots taken with an EXR cam. I stress 'similar' hoping to see images of comparable scenes and not the one of the bird that I know you are so proud of (quite rightly) and with full exif data showing...

Well I prefer this one!

A raw-less camera with crippled DR handling system is hopeless in this situation.

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Sunshine_boy
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to jcmarfilph, Aug 19, 2012

jcmarfilph wrote:

Sunshine_boy wrote:

jcmarfilph wrote:

Sorry Sunshine, despite of the sunshine your pictures did not shine. It may have handled the sky fine but I can see noisy shadowed areas and loss of resolution on hair and even on grass.

You could make your point more convincing Joms if you could post SIMILAR shots taken with an EXR cam. I stress 'similar' hoping to see images of comparable scenes and not the one of the bird that I know you are so proud of (quite rightly) and with full exif data showing...

Well I prefer this one!

Quite a comparable scene!...

Come on Joms, stop play-acting

Don't you ever use your EXRs to shoot anything else but feathered birds? Give us some birds on a sunny sandy beach, preferably without too many feathers on...
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jcmarfilph
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to Sunshine_boy, Aug 19, 2012

Sunshine_boy wrote:

jcmarfilph wrote:

Sunshine_boy wrote:

jcmarfilph wrote:

Sorry Sunshine, despite of the sunshine your pictures did not shine. It may have handled the sky fine but I can see noisy shadowed areas and loss of resolution on hair and even on grass.

You could make your point more convincing Joms if you could post SIMILAR shots taken with an EXR cam. I stress 'similar' hoping to see images of comparable scenes and not the one of the bird that I know you are so proud of (quite rightly) and with full exif data showing...

Well I prefer this one!

Quite a comparable scene!...

http://i.imgur.com/I3Ggw.jpg
pr: galleries/6001724030/photos/2162198

Come on Joms, stop play-acting

Don't you ever use your EXRs to shoot anything else but feathered birds? Give us some birds on a sunny sandy beach, preferably without too many feathers on...
--
Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

I just showed you a non-EXR camera that cannot handle blown highlights on feathers.

Anyway I can share these so you know I am not just taking pictures of birds and insects.

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Tim39
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to Sunshine_boy, Aug 19, 2012

Thanks for the link. That got to be a pretty interesting discussion.

Glad you like the 7100. I had a 7000 for awhile and despite its bulk and pokiness, I developed a fondness for the little beast. Not enough to keep it, but I'm still in awe of an ISO 3200 close-up I took of my cat while playing with her on the floor (lying on my back, in fact). Understand the 7100 is everything the 7000 should have been.

Even though I think about DR seldom and never, I think it's always good to hear about credible alternatives in the Forum. Especially when it's an alternative to plumbing the marvels of EXR.

Take care.

Sunshine_boy wrote:

If you are interested in finding out how a non-EXR compact camera can cope with extreme contrasty situations, you can take a look at this thread in the Nikon forum where I posted several shots taken with the P7100 under quite difficult lighting conditions, a mixture of shadows, bright sunshine and clear skies.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1007&message=42289315

Although I appreciate that the Fuji EXR method works, I am trying to demonstrate that other methods/techniques work too, without the hassle of the EXR complexities and loss of resolution.

(The posted images are reduced to 1024 from full res)
--
Best Regards
Sunshine

ps If you see someone without a smile on, give him one of yours...

-- hide signature --

Tim

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Billx08
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Re: Dynamic Range 'sans' EXR...
In reply to jcmarfilph, Aug 19, 2012

jcmarfilph wrote:
. . .

Although I appreciate that the Fuji EXR method works, I am trying to demonstrate that other methods/techniques work too, without the hassle of the EXR complexities and loss of resolution.

(The posted images are reduced to 1024 from full res)

How can we see if there is loss in resolution if you resized them to 1024? Hiding it?

Coming from you, the master at "Hiding" EXIF data from your photos by stripping it from them, that's almost hilariously hypocritical. You also don't seem to realize that full resolution isn't needed to demonstrate what this thread is about - Dynamic Range . As usual, your knee-jerk penchant to try to find fault (especially with "toy zoom" owners) makes you as comical and hapless as Wile E. Coyote, who almost always ends up being deservedly humiliated.

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