Frustrated with this Forum's Photographic Examples

Started Aug 18, 2012 | Discussions
Ed_C
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Re: Frustrated with this Forum's Photographic Examples
In reply to Biological_Viewfinder, Aug 19, 2012

Can't say I disagree. If you like hyper-saturated snapshots that couldn't ever be printed, pet photos or thinly veiled attempts to get compliments on snapshots of children that is exactly what this forum has become. Well that and LOTS of measurebating beyond all artistic merit.
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Photo Pete
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Re: Really?
In reply to Phil Hill, Aug 19, 2012

Phil Hill wrote:

Uploading images isn’t the only way to present one’s work, and some people prefer prints. When I have a shot with artistic merit, the last thing I’m going to do is ruin it by throwing away 80% of the information for viewing on a 72-96ppi back-illuminated display. Computer screens are okay for snapshots, but not, in my opinion, serious art.

I completely agree. Prints are greatly preferable to on-screen viewing, particularly as we have no idea how well the viewer's computer system is colour calibrated or how good their monitor is.... but a quality image will always come across as such, even if it doesn't meet the high standards of the original print.

Your view may be different, and that’s my point. Lack of uploaded images doesn’t really prove anything. And I’d even go so far as to say that nobody in these forums really has to prove anything at all. Why is “proof” required to back up one’s opinion?

No-one needs to prove anything, I would agree. But without giving some idea of their own expertise their opinion is greatly de-valued, and that is the way it should be. People come to these forums to learn about equipment and how to use it, but the vast number of deliberately confrontational 'opinions' that are provided with no indication of the poster's expertise or knowledge simply risk providing misinformation. Quite rightly people should value those opinions of posters whose work they can see as an example of their experience and skill.

When you visit an art gallery, do you only listen to comments by proven artists? Does every art critic have to be an accomplished artist before you’ll take their comments seriously?

When I visit an art gallery i would have serious reservations taking advice from someone about technique and equipment if I had no idea of what their own abilities were. I would happily listen to their views on their emotional response to the artwork, but that is not what this forum is about.

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Phil Hill
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Re: Really?
In reply to Photo Pete, Aug 19, 2012

Photo Pete wrote:

When I visit an art gallery i would have serious reservations taking advice from someone about technique and equipment if I had no idea of what their own abilities were. I would happily listen to their views on their emotional response to the artwork, but that is not what this forum is about.

Well, I wasn’t talking about advice. And neither were you in the post to which I replied. You only mentioned comments, and that you dismiss them in the absence of an online gallery.

I just believe that posters should be free to comment on what they like or don’t like without having to demonstrate a skill level. My fear was that posts like the one I first replied to are only going to make newcomers afraid to comment, while doing nothing at all to deter the folks whose goal it is to stir up trouble.

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WatsonPhoto
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Re: Frustrated with this Forum's Photographic Examples
In reply to Ed_C, Aug 19, 2012

To make this forum better; everybody should lead by example. This can be done through providing examples on your web galleries, other galleries, publications or listed commercial work. Criticism and critiques should be courteous and professional. If people don't want trolls or measurebators on this forum, then they should lead by example. If everybody wants a better forum then everybody should share equally in cleaning it up.

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4x5 Guy
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Re: Frustrated with this Forum's Photographic Examples
In reply to Biological_Viewfinder, Aug 19, 2012

Biological_Viewfinder wrote:

Here's a picture of my hometown, and the sky is blown out completely. But everyone cheers the guy on anyway. Good job, you did good capturing the buildings. No one even notices that the sky is a white nothingness. Or the shot that's just plain useless.

That's one of thw worst aspects of this forum. A bad/mediocre image is presented. Instead of constructive criticism, there are enough people who take equally bad images or who have NO aesthetic capabilities or who are just afraid of criticizing for fear of essentially criticizing their own images that they praise these bad images and the person that presented their images does not get a chance to learn and improve.

Most images posted on this forum are just plain mediocre or bad. This is really just a children's show and tell forum.

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Robin Casady
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Re: Frustrated with this Forum's Photographic Examples
In reply to sssesq, Aug 19, 2012

Highjacking a complaint thread is not the best way to get feedback on how to shoot the Milky Way.

I didn't notice that you wanted help with it until I saw this post.

Coma is a characteristic of the lens. You may be able to reduce it with a smaller f/stop, but the real solution is to use a lens that doesn't produce it.

Exposure time and star trails are dependent on lens focal length. The wider the lens, the longer the exposure can be without getting oval stars.

You might be interested in Barn Door mounts. Google it and you will find out how you can make cheap simple device that will allow longer exposures without trailing.

sssesq wrote:

Photo Pete wrote:

This is an equipment forum and we should expect posted images that show technical rather than artistic examples. It would be refreshing to see some more quality work though as those are generally the best examples of what a camera is capable of.

Ya, and still nobody has cared enough about my shot to give advice. I told you that I used in camera NR, that I wondered if a smaller aperature would help control coma and what about a higher iso and shutter speed to stop the star motion. I could have said that I used MUP and delay release, but nooo, nobody wants to comment. What other hardware parameters could I adjust. I am starting to think that all the posters in this forum want to do is complain about their focus problems. Is that all you are competent to speak to? Do I have BO??Maybe the new Canon Astro camera should have been used.

ps I forgot to say that the bright hororizen was due to light pollution from a farmhouse yard light about 400m away. This was unplanned.

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Photo Pete
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Re: Really?
In reply to Phil Hill, Aug 19, 2012

Phil Hill wrote:

Photo Pete wrote:

When I visit an art gallery i would have serious reservations taking advice from someone about technique and equipment if I had no idea of what their own abilities were. I would happily listen to their views on their emotional response to the artwork, but that is not what this forum is about.

Well, I wasn’t talking about advice. And neither were you in the post to which I replied. You only mentioned comments, and that you dismiss them in the absence of an online gallery.

Poor wording on my behalf in my original post. I have no problem with people expressing their personal view by commenting on images or discussions, but I do have a problem where that view implies they have a level of expertise or experience that can't easily be backed up or verified.

I just believe that posters should be free to comment on what they like or don’t like without having to demonstrate a skill level. My fear was that posts like the one I first replied to are only going to make newcomers afraid to comment, while doing nothing at all to deter the folks whose goal it is to stir up trouble.

I would never advocate anything that would deter posting or commenting, nor would I ever propose that demonstrating expertise or competence should be mandatory... and I don't think I did that in my posts here. What I did say is that the reader of those posts is more likely to dismiss those comments / advice if they do not have any idea of the skill level or expertise of the person posting.

It is the sheer number of posts providing 'expert' opinion without any demonstration of 'expertise' that I find frustrating.

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Ed_C
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Re: Frustrated with this Forum's Photographic Examples
In reply to WatsonPhoto, Aug 19, 2012

Several people tried that years ago when it first started going down this road. I just came back hoping it was a phase. It clearly wasn't. To be fair, I have seen some very nice work here on this trip back but even many of those are so over-processed that they could never be more than a web image. I would venture to say that the vast majority of people who post here have no idea what gamut is without looking the term up on the internet. The photos that get the vast majority of play at this point are test charts. I don't like shooting test charts.

Quality work is very quickly overwhelmed on page 1 by test charts and whining. The only way this forum changes is if the number of measurbating and whining threads decreases. Until then there just isn't any point for me.
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aus4ever
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Re: Trollage.
In reply to sssesq, Aug 19, 2012

sssesq wrote:

RBFresno wrote:

Translate this: 01001100 01001111 01001100

76   79   76

RB

RB - Nice gallery. Also, the poster of the binary wanted an additional setp. The binary to decimal is for 76 79 76, but what I think the message was meant to be again translated decimal into the ASCII representation - in this case 76 79 76 is L O L...

Good that you explained; I was thinking that it might be the hotline for Pizza Hut.

01001001 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01101100 01100001 01110101 01100111 01101000 00100000 01101100 01101111 01110101 01100100 01100101 01110010 00101110

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Biological_Viewfinder
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Agreed
In reply to 4x5 Guy, Aug 19, 2012

And perhaps the worst of all is when someone's mediocre work is celebrated because people are too timid to be honest, too politically correct to be realistic, too polite to be actually useful.

The best advice I ever received from someone was that my color use subtracted from their viewing experience. Mostly I get it right on my own, but that was useful advice because it wasn't watered down lip service, it was the truth. And I wouldn't mind posting my pictures except that I know that people wouldn't be truthful at all, they would just be spiteful because I don't walk the same path they do. I don't have be a yesman to everyone on the internet. I just saw one too many craptastic images and decided to say something. I haven't called anyone a name or insulted anyone at all; but I've been insulted by quite a few people. I suppose that will stop once the ban hammer starts pounding.

4x5 Guy wrote:

Biological_Viewfinder wrote:

Here's a picture of my hometown, and the sky is blown out completely. But everyone cheers the guy on anyway. Good job, you did good capturing the buildings. No one even notices that the sky is a white nothingness. Or the shot that's just plain useless.

That's one of thw worst aspects of this forum. A bad/mediocre image is presented. Instead of constructive criticism, there are enough people who take equally bad images or who have NO aesthetic capabilities or who are just afraid of criticizing for fear of essentially criticizing their own images that they praise these bad images and the person that presented their images does not get a chance to learn and improve.

Most images posted on this forum are just plain mediocre or bad. This is really just a children's show and tell forum.

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Photo Pete
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Re: tashley
In reply to Biological_Viewfinder, Aug 19, 2012

Biological_Viewfinder wrote:

Number 1: That's on purpose. I have wonderful pictures, but I don't need any help to understand that. I don't require anyone's praise to realize that. I don't need to share my work anywhere, and I certainly don't want people copying my work.

It must be lonely once this level of perfection has been attained. I quite enjoy sharing my work with others and listening to their comments to help me improve. I think my photography would all seem a bit pointless if I weren't to share it with anyone else... so respect for BV for being able to take photos that no-one else will ever see... a unique and modern interpretation of a visual art has been achieved by making it non-visual!

Just joking of course, but an approach that avoids showing your photos for fear of any form of criticism or of plagiarism / copying does seem a little odd.

Number 2: Even if I posted an image that would make mother's cry, angel's sing, and dead men dance; the cynical, sarcastic people on the internet would find something, anything at all, wrong with it.

Given how you've set yourself up for criticism if you ever do post an image I think you should just be happy making mothers cynical, angels sarcastic and dead men cry!

I'm afraid you've dug yourself into a bit of a hole here. If you post an image you will probably get a lot of unfair criticism (although ultimately will get a fair bit more respect if the image is actually any good). If you don't post an image then people will consider you a bit of a hypocrite.

I must agree with the sentiment of your original post though. A lot of the posted images tend to be to illustrate that a D800 has been unboxed, rather than to help illustrate a technical point or demonstrate what the camera is capable of. It would be good if someone with your level of confidence in your own ability could help change that by posting some better examples. If you genuinely don't need people to tell you that your images are good then you really won't mind if people criticise them either.

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tvnewsbadge
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Re: Frustrated with this Forum's Photographic Examples
In reply to Biological_Viewfinder, Aug 19, 2012

Biological_Viewfinder wrote:

I really think it would be in poor taste to give examples, but I'm really just astounded by the lack of photographic ability, either technically or creatively on these forums.

And who exactly are you to judge? Show your creds before starting a rant like this. Reads like a troll to me.

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Biological_Viewfinder
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Photo Pete
In reply to Photo Pete, Aug 19, 2012

Now that's a much better laid trap.

Anyway, another thing I think about with my work is that I have my own style. It's not neccessarily Dragan by any means; but it is my own style. And frankly I don't want people trying to emulate it. Also, for the most part, when I get so many insults from people who have hurt feelings over a forum they think they partially own or somehing, I really just don't think they deserve to see my work.

I used to share a bit here, long ago. But the thing I wish to avoid is being part of the army of clones. Everyone here thinks shallow depth of field is so amazing, and the bokeh is so beautiful; and I don't agree at all. But I do know that I have actually made a couple of people cry just from looking at my stuff, and maybe that's because it's so different from anything that's others are doing.

I'm not a clone. I'm not a follower. That's why you won't ever see my work. Because once it's out there, then everyone will want to do it. IT'S THE NEW HDR!!! LOok at this guy's work!

And then it's not MY work anymore. I've just collected all the clones to follow me.

So no thanks.
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Palimpsest
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Re: Frustrated with this Forum's Photographic Examples
In reply to tvnewsbadge, Aug 19, 2012

There’s always an imbecile who feels the need to express his contrarian opinion on how a forum must work, the prevailing practice notwithstanding. The particular self-appointed arbiter in question comes off as an arrogant, fecally-impacted jerk. If there is a thread which doesn’t measure up to his standards, the obvious (and mature) solution would be to simply not read it, and not to whine and suggest everyone else goose-step along with him.

(Related: I personally don’t think anyone needs to show his work for validation as a critic here or anywhere. Last week, I believe, the prominent art critic Robert Hughes died. He never showed his work, but he did have an uncanny eye.)

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sssesq
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Re: Frustrated with this Forum's Photographic Examples
In reply to Photo Pete, Aug 19, 2012

Photo Pete wrote:

sssesq wrote:

Photo Pete wrote:

This is an equipment forum and we should expect posted images that show technical rather than artistic examples. It would be refreshing to see some more quality work though as those are generally the best examples of what a camera is capable of.

Personally I'd leave in-camera noise reduction turned off and handle noise reduction in post processing. The Capture NX astro noise reduction feature seems to work pretty well. Additionally you could use your own blackframe.

Another possibility is to break down your exposure into a series of 5-10 second exposures and blend them together in Photoshop using stacking with the layer blend mode set to lighten. This gives a lot more flexibility with noise reduction, reduces the long exposure noise and tends to supress the random noise in the image whilst boosting the star brightness.

Max ISO I'd consider would be 1600, but would much prefer to keep it lower. Any higher, even with D3s and D800, will mean that you are starting to run the risk of noise competing with the stars and creating a problem with noise removal.

MLU and delay release is good. Your tripod and head is also critical. You need something really steady and solid enough to avoid wind movement (you could also try hanging your camera bag or a stone basket from it). You're pointing your camera upwards so no need to extend your tripod legs. Keep it low and compact. I assume that you are using the viewfinder blind as well?

I'd also try a couple of sample frames before your full exposure in order to check focus. Most nikon lenses focus past infinity and aren't brilliant at focussing on stars. A couple of quick exposures will let you check this out and make any adjustments necessary.

Aperture should ideally be set at the optimum for the lens. Too wide and you will get aberrations around the stars, too small and you will lose definition due to diffraction. Probably best sticking around 5.6 for a wide aperture pro lens. It will be a balancing act between aperture, iso and star movement.

I don't think you will reduce the length of the star movement much at all, if you want to keep the aperture at its optimum and keep noise under control, not unless you want to invest in a tracking device.

Generally the feel of the photo is lovely (and that's what counts). The slight clouds and the orange glow from the farm add to the image in my opinion, but I'd include more of the ground or lose it altogether. The slither at the bottom is too small and I find it annoying.

Feel free to take on board any or nothing of the above!

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Thanks a bunch Pete. I have taken the liberty to copy verbatim your advice and am keeping in my photo log.

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moving_comfort
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Post a few shots, we'll be kind... we promise.
In reply to Biological_Viewfinder, Aug 19, 2012

Biological_Viewfinder wrote:

That's on purpose. I have wonderful pictures, but I don't need any help to understand that. I don't require anyone's praise to realize that.

How do you know if you have wonderful pictures if you don't share them in some way? Is it possible that you just think you do?

It almost sounds to me that you perhaps have shared some of them, maybe under some other username here, and they were panned, maybe with mild (or harsh) CC that you didn't welcome....

Number 2: Even if I posted an image that would make mother's cry, angel's sing, and dead men dance; the cynical, sarcastic people on the internet would find something, anything at all, wrong with it.

Ah. I was right.

(By the way - how are the "cynical, sarcastic people on the internet" you describe fundamentaly different from you, from the persona presented in the original post in this thread? You have become those you disdain!)
.

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moving_comfort
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HDR is ready for a Renaissance - and you can be it's da Vinci!
In reply to Biological_Viewfinder, Aug 19, 2012

Biological_Viewfinder wrote:

Now that's a much better laid trap.

Anyway, another thing I think about with my work is that I have my own style. It's not neccessarily Dragan by any means; but it is my own style. And frankly I don't want people trying to emulate it. Also, for the most part, when I get so many insults from people who have hurt feelings over a forum they think they partially own or somehing, I really just don't think they deserve to see my work.

I used to share a bit here, long ago. But the thing I wish to avoid is being part of the army of clones. Everyone here thinks shallow depth of field is so amazing, and the bokeh is so beautiful; and I don't agree at all. But I do know that I have actually made a couple of people cry just from looking at my stuff, and maybe that's because it's so different from anything that's others are doing.

I'm not a clone. I'm not a follower. That's why you won't ever see my work. Because once it's out there, then everyone will want to do it. IT'S THE NEW HDR!!! LOok at this guy's work!

And then it's not MY work anymore. I've just collected all the clones to follow me.

So no thanks.

I was right, II.

So you're an HDR enthusiast, and your HDR work wasn't universally praised, or seen as the groundbreaking, original stuff you were sure it was. This hurt your feelings. Thus, threads like this, or rudely-given CC dropped in here or there...

Look - post some more shots. Really. HDR has died down a bit around here of late, maybe you can bring it back.

.
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DANdeMAN
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In a vacuum
In reply to Biological_Viewfinder, Aug 19, 2012

Biological_Viewfinder wrote:

Now that's a much better laid trap.

Anyway, another thing I think about with my work is that I have my own style. It's not neccessarily Dragan by any means; but it is my own style. And frankly I don't want people trying to emulate it. Also, for the most part, when I get so many insults from people who have hurt feelings over a forum they think they partially own or somehing, I really just don't think they deserve to see my work.

I used to share a bit here, long ago. But the thing I wish to avoid is being part of the army of clones. Everyone here thinks shallow depth of field is so amazing, and the bokeh is so beautiful; and I don't agree at all. But I do know that I have actually made a couple of people cry just from looking at my stuff, and maybe that's because it's so different from anything that's others are doing.

I'm not a clone. I'm not a follower. That's why you won't ever see my work. Because once it's out there, then everyone will want to do it. IT'S THE NEW HDR!!! LOok at this guy's work!

And then it's not MY work anymore. I've just collected all the clones to follow me.

So no thanks.

The irony & the twillight zone wraped into one...

If you are that magnificent, "sherly" you must be known and your work must be talked about in the respected magazine of the world. If you are that good, you will be discovered, like it or not or else you live in a vacuum. On the other hand, the way you talk, it looks like it would be easy to copy you, so you might as well remain hidden.
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tko
tko
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In reply to Biological_Viewfinder, Aug 19, 2012

But it's not just this forum. It's most places. I have to bite m tongue. The was some guy at DPR (not this forum) who posted some photos at the beach. Honestly, his dog could have taken them. Just random shots of people lying around. Not even snapshots of friends. And he was so proud of them, and every one was congratulating him. Way to push that shutter Fred! It's like a social club. Hey, you got something in the viewfinder, great catch!

But hey, it's just the forums. The contest winners are typically very good. I like the results, and respect the winners.

Besides, most of the really good photographers don't post here. Why would they?

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anotherMike
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Re: yup
In reply to tko, Aug 19, 2012

I know several people, myself included, who won't post images here because, frankly, there are too many jerks in the forum and the odds of having your work ripped off (either conceptually or literally) is a bit high. In fact, as I photograph people, I've had specific requests that none of the images ever reach the photographic forum community....sometimes with this one even specifically mentioned, which should tell you something about the reputation here. Far too many idiots, incompetents, trolls, personal attacks and the like really to risk putting something you really like up here. This place frankly has become boneyard of inept whining idiocy lately. I totally can see why good poster after good poster leave. It's not the lack of imagery, it's the lack of common simple thought and common sense, amongst other things. But I digress.

Plus, let's be honest - there is a vast difference between seeing someone's gallery quality print hanging and a cruddy web compressed jpeg. No way you can tell image quality from the vast majority of images on the web anyway.

The other thing though is - this IS a gear forum, and contrary to what some think - the opinion and knowledge of someone from a technical perspective can be valuable even if they are not a great artistic vision. This whole thing where people only listen to people who post "great" images is somewhat foolish. There are people who don't post images, or great images, whose input is valuable - someones technical contributions to a gear forum can be very good even if their artistic output is limited. Frankly, if I want to see images, I'll head over to Fred Miranda and lurk. If I want to discuss gear, I'll head here. There's enough different places to see images if one wants.

-m

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