People assuming a new 4/3rds body on the way

Started Aug 18, 2012 | Discussions
boggis the cat
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"Long term" means keeping the customer waiting
In reply to nyfalls, Aug 22, 2012

nyfalls wrote:

Another 4/3 body just leaves them in the same position they are in now. What would be the point for the long term?

The reasons to release a standard FT body boil down to: EVF quality not there yet, PDAF capability is really a requirement (hybrid AF would be best to deliver fats and accurate C-AF, so PDAF is not required solely for "legacy" standard FT lenses).

Long term, both of these issues should be solved -- so long term Olympus will likely move toward E-M5 -like designs with optional grips to assist with using larger lenses (such as the SHG range).

If it sees the light of day and can allow me to use my 12-60 on a more modern body with excellent performance, I would buy it and seriously consider m4/3 lenses versus going down the Nikon path-- and that's coming from someone not impressed at all by m4/3.

MicroFT was a decent option for prime lens use, but the sensors still lagged the APS-C competitors more than they should have. The E-M5 clawed back the sensor difference (arguably at about parity with the present range of larger APS-C sensors) and Panasonic decided to produce the 12-35 f/2.8 and 35-100 f/2.8(?) lenses. The MicroFT system is definitely looking more capable all the time, and is catching up on APS-C systems very quickly.

From my POV, the E-M5 with 12-50 seemed acceptable for general photographic use and video, and the 45 f/1.8 seemed a good option for indoor low-light use. I would prefer to be able to fully use the 12-60 and 50-200 on the E-M5 but it just isn't the case.

Assuming an E-7 turns up I may upgrade, depending on whether I think a "Pro" grade OM-D is likely to appear soon that would enable full use of the 12-60 and 50-200. I would rather go the "Pro OM-D" route now that I have the 45 f/1.8 and will potentially buy wide-angle zooms in Micro format in future.

(I don't really need the E-5 I have now; except that I wanted the better sensor, OVF, weather-sealing etc. and there was no weather-sealed E-30 upgrade. So I am even more reluctant to spend another US$1700 on an E-7, even if it is much improved over the E-5.)

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TrapperJohn
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I think the market is definitely there
In reply to RoyGBiv, Aug 22, 2012

A large number of EM5 adopters are serious amateur large system owners looking for a smaller setup to add to their current rig. Getting tired of having to lug all that gear everywhere. Quite a few D700/D7000, some 5DII... and most of them seem impressed with what they find.

What they're missing are fast zooms, in order for their small solution to become their primary solution, many of them are saying exactly that. Let's face it, the current M43 zooms are pretty lame. Even the best, the Panny 12-35, exhibits CA on the EM5. (by design, Panny corrects for CA in body after the fact to cut lens costs, Oly and Leica PL correct it optically) Oly could try to redesign the HG and SHG lenses for M43 which would be expensive and probably wouldn't reduce size much, or they could just fix the AF issues and the killer fast zooms the advanced amateurs want are already available, with no additional development costs. As we all know, fewer lenses to carry is smaller, too, and the 12-60/50-200 combo covers a very wide range.

An EM5 sized body that could AF the current HG and SHG glass would have a ready market in these advanced amateurs with money to spend. The end result would be dual purpose: small with the M43 primes, or larger but very capable with a battery grip and HG/SHG zooms. Even just EM5 size will do, with the grip it handles quite well with the 50-200 or 7-14. Just fix the AF.

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Messier Object
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Re: I think the market is definitely there
In reply to TrapperJohn, Aug 22, 2012

Even just EM5 size will do, with the grip it handles quite well with the 50-200 or 7-14. Just fix the AF.

Yes but how will it handle with the bigger lenses, 35-100, 90-250, 300, bigma etc. A micro body on the end of a 3Kg lens - you'd have to pick it up and carry it by gripping the lens.

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rovingtim
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Re: I think the market is definitely there
In reply to Messier Object, Aug 22, 2012

Messier Object wrote:

Even just EM5 size will do, with the grip it handles quite well with the 50-200 or 7-14. Just fix the AF.

Yes but how will it handle with the bigger lenses, 35-100, 90-250, 300, bigma etc. A micro body on the end of a 3Kg lens - you'd have to pick it up and carry it by gripping the lens.

... which is exactly what I do when I use the E400 with the bigger lenses. It's about the same size as Panny's GH2.

Even with bigger bodies, you still need to hold the lens to take the shot. Lot of strain on the mount, otherwise. Not to mention camera shake.

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Rriley
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Re: I think the market is definitely there
In reply to rovingtim, Aug 22, 2012

rovingtim wrote:

Messier Object wrote:

Even just EM5 size will do, with the grip it handles quite well with the 50-200 or 7-14. Just fix the AF.

Yes but how will it handle with the bigger lenses, 35-100, 90-250, 300, bigma etc. A micro body on the end of a 3Kg lens - you'd have to pick it up and carry it by gripping the lens.

... which is exactly what I do when I use the E400 with the bigger lenses. It's about the same size as Panny's GH2.

Even with bigger bodies, you still need to hold the lens to take the shot. Lot of strain on the mount, otherwise. Not to mention camera shake.

the strain on the mount is the same as on Ex
the issue is ergonomics

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Messier Object
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Re: I think the market is definitely there
In reply to Rriley, Aug 22, 2012

the strain on the mount is the same as on Ex
the issue is ergonomics

true, but you need to consider how the mount is attached to the body and whether the desigers actually considered that an OMD user would use one of the big lenses bouncing around in wild places.

And in this case ergonomics means how hard you need to grip the camera, how many fingers you can get on it, how sharp the edges are, whether you are wearing gloves and whether it's wet.

I'd love to see a field report on the OMD with ZD300 or ZD 90-250 f/2.8.

IMO, the top-end lenses are the true test for anything Olympus wants to call its flagship body. Whatever they come up with needs to be darn solid.
Any mishandling of an OMD with a 3Kg lens attached could break something.

Peteer

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Haider
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Re: People assuming a new 4/3rds body on the way
In reply to rovingtim, Aug 22, 2012

May be they are working on both i.e. E-7 (E5 evolved from bits of the EM-5) design and an OM-D hybrid. Then depending on what they can produce they will take that further and eventually into production. I think they learned from the canned E-1 replacement don't put all your eggs in one basket.

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Haider
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Re: Deed is stringer than words
In reply to Rriley, Aug 22, 2012

They launched the E-5 pretty much on schedule and an E-7 shouldn't be out this year by the E-3 to E-5 timeframe...

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MatijaK
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Re: Deed is stringer than words
In reply to Haider, Aug 22, 2012

Haider wrote:

They launched the E-5 pretty much on schedule and an E-7 shouldn't be out this year by the E-3 to E-5 timeframe...

Or it could be released in 2014, by the E-1 to E-3 timeframe

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rovingtim
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Re: I think the market is definitely there
In reply to Rriley, Aug 22, 2012

Rriley wrote:

the strain on the mount is the same as on Ex

I know.

the issue is ergonomics

When your camera has a big heavy lens mounted, when you aim, do you only hold the camera, or do you have a hand on the lens as well?

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Rriley
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Re: I think the market is definitely there
In reply to rovingtim, Aug 22, 2012

rovingtim wrote:

Rriley wrote:

the strain on the mount is the same as on Ex

I know.

the issue is ergonomics

When your camera has a big heavy lens mounted, when you aim, do you only hold the camera, or do you have a hand on the lens as well?

lens and body, but I come from a 35mm film background
I think its the best way to hold a camera steady with lenses of a decent bulk
this is how I shoot 7-14,
and of course I do the same with more sensitive tele zooms

very small lenses like 9-18 just both ends of the body

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Rriley
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Re: I think the market is definitely there
In reply to Messier Object, Aug 22, 2012

Messier Object wrote:

the strain on the mount is the same as on Ex
the issue is ergonomics

true, but you need to consider how the mount is attached to the body and whether the desigers actually considered that an OMD user would use one of the big lenses bouncing around in wild places.

And in this case ergonomics means how hard you need to grip the camera, how many fingers you can get on it, how sharp the edges are, whether you are wearing gloves and whether it's wet.

I'd love to see a field report on the OMD with ZD300 or ZD 90-250 f/2.8.

its futile to support lenses that size holding just the body
you must hold the lens and the body or it will shake a lot
tele lenses in particular need that wider axis

IMO, the top-end lenses are the true test for anything Olympus wants to call its flagship body. Whatever they come up with needs to be darn solid.
Any mishandling of an OMD with a 3Kg lens attached could break something.

nah, the strength of the joint between mount and body should be the same
the torque on it is the same, no reason for it to be different

but ergo is contingent on holding the camera in that fashion
therefore control goes to the right hand, sorry left handers

Peteer

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rovingtim
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Re: I think the market is definitely there
In reply to Rriley, Aug 22, 2012

Rriley wrote:

When your camera has a big heavy lens mounted, when you aim, do you only hold the camera, or do you have a hand on the lens as well?

lens and body, but I come from a 35mm film background
I think its the best way to hold a camera steady with lenses of a decent bulk
this is how I shoot 7-14,
and of course I do the same with more sensitive tele zooms

Me too. That is why I think that for big lenses, body size in not as important as good body control. Holding a big lens in shooting position, like the 90-250, by the body only would put quite a strain on the mount and I don't think that is good for any camera of the long-term.

The biggest lens I've one-handed is the 50-200, but I've only done it rarely. I admit, one-handing the 50-200 with a camera the size of the E400 (or m4/3rds) would be uncomfortable.

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Messier Object
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Re: I think the market is definitely there
In reply to Rriley, Aug 23, 2012

Riley,
Of couse the lens is suported when shooting, but I'm not talking about shooting.

I'm talking about picking it up and carying it around. I can do that one handed with my E-5, even without the HLD-4.

The OMD chassis OTOH is smaller and lighter = not as strong, and I doubt very much that it would stand up to much in-the-wild shooting with the big lenses - where you don't want to take the lens off the body (dust, dirt, water). Even stowing the combo in a pack would require more care with the non-flip screen.

So I'm hoping for the big body solution - with BLM-5 battery, and HLD-4 compatibility

Peter

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boggis the cat
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Ergonomics is more than control placement
In reply to rovingtim, Aug 23, 2012

rovingtim wrote:

Rriley wrote:

When your camera has a big heavy lens mounted, when you aim, do you only hold the camera, or do you have a hand on the lens as well?

lens and body, but I come from a 35mm film background
I think its the best way to hold a camera steady with lenses of a decent bulk
this is how I shoot 7-14,
and of course I do the same with more sensitive tele zooms

Me too. That is why I think that for big lenses, body size in not as important as good body control.

That's ergonomics, which is what Rriley is talking about.

Holding a big lens in shooting position, like the 90-250, by the body only would put quite a strain on the mount and I don't think that is good for any camera of the long-term.

There is no way you'd be able to hold that combo steady one-handed.

The biggest lens I've one-handed is the 50-200, but I've only done it rarely. I admit, one-handing the 50-200 with a camera the size of the E400 (or m4/3rds) would be uncomfortable.

It would also be fairly stupid to attempt that. The strain placed on the mount would also tend to flex the (plastic) body and potentially alter the plane of the sensor WRT to lens image circle. Poor technique kills IQ much better than a smaller sensor or older model body.

Ergonomics is tricky. The E-620 and 12-60 combo seemed to work fine, but the 50-200 just didn't seem to balance well. I added the HLD-5 grip to the E-620 and it then worked fine with the 50-200.

Generally, you want to try to support the body and lens at or near to the centre of gravity. For the E-620 and 50-200 this seemed to put the point too far forward of where I support the lens (under the zoom control), but adding the HLD-5 shifted that point rearward enough to balance it properly. OTOH, the E-5 is sufficiently heavy that it works fine with the 50-200 without the grip.

What you'd find with any light body and heavy lens combination is that the centre of gravity is too far forward. Big lenses really need a matching body, IMO.

(I haven't got a standard FT to MicroFT mount adapter yet, so haven't tried the 50-200 with the E-M5 and grips as yet. My expectation would be that this combination would not work well. In any case, the 50-200 reportedly doesn't AF well on the E-M5, so it's probably a moot point...)

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Martin Muehlemann
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Re: People assuming a new 4/3rds body on the way
In reply to Craig from Nevada, Aug 23, 2012

Craig from Nevada wrote:

Olympus should look very hard a what Sony did with its a900 several years ago. Excellent technology, with limited bells and whistles in a package designed for professionals. A worthy flagship camera that aged well.

No, please not. I sold my Sony A900+ 70-200G SSM due to the fact that the AF was not up to the level of my E-5 with 50-200 SWD.

The AF was the worst I ever had, to be honest. My E-30 was better than this

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Messier Object
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Re: Ergonomics is more than control placement
In reply to boggis the cat, Aug 23, 2012

Boggis wrote:
Big lenses really need a matching body, IMO.

agree

My expectation would be that this combination would not work well. In any case, the 50-200 reportedly doesn't AF well on the E-M5, so it's probably a moot point...)

it's not a moot point because the original post was all about whether Olympus delivers their (stated) AF solution in a m4/3 or in an E-x type body. The 50-200 might be OK, but IMO the micro body will be an ergonomic problem for users of the really big lenses.

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Martin Muehlemann
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Re: People assuming a new 4/3rds body on the way
In reply to rovingtim, Aug 23, 2012

I was so excited to read that Olympus is bringing a new body. initially I was thinking - Hurray, another 4/3 Body. I can no get back my superb lens park. I was already having a PO placed for a E-5 (temporarily) and my SHG lenses, when I read the announcement again.

I'ld love to see a E-5 successor with an OM-D sensor. This would bring me back on the Olympus track immediately. Canon has no answer to a Olympus 7-14 nor to a 14-35 SWD

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Rriley
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Re: I think the market is definitely there
In reply to rovingtim, Aug 23, 2012

rovingtim wrote:

Rriley wrote:

When your camera has a big heavy lens mounted, when you aim, do you only hold the camera, or do you have a hand on the lens as well?

lens and body, but I come from a 35mm film background
I think its the best way to hold a camera steady with lenses of a decent bulk
this is how I shoot 7-14,
and of course I do the same with more sensitive tele zooms

Me too. That is why I think that for big lenses, body size in not as important as good body control. Holding a big lens in shooting position, like the 90-250, by the body only would put quite a strain on the mount and I don't think that is good for any camera of the long-term.

The biggest lens I've one-handed is the 50-200, but I've only done it rarely. I admit, one-handing the 50-200 with a camera the size of the E400 (or m4/3rds) would be uncomfortable.

yep, its just the absence of size a grip though, and I think thats possible to fix, if not how its done on M5 then some alternative

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Rriley
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Re: Ergonomics is more than control placement
In reply to Messier Object, Aug 23, 2012

Messier Object wrote:

Boggis wrote:
Big lenses really need a matching body, IMO.

agree

My expectation would be that this combination would not work well. In any case, the 50-200 reportedly doesn't AF well on the E-M5, so it's probably a moot point...)

it's not a moot point because the original post was all about whether Olympus delivers their (stated) AF solution in a m4/3 or in an E-x type body. The 50-200 might be OK, but IMO the micro body will be an ergonomic problem for users of the really big lenses.

I know thats right,

but still fixable as its easier to make existing bodies bigger with add ons than it is smaller with a saw

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