Are we going to see a fixed lens 4/3 camera?

Started Aug 11, 2012 | Discussions
Jorginho
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Are we going to see a fixed lens 4/3 camera?
Aug 11, 2012

If you look how small the Sony is with the one or how small the GF5 is with the X-lens. Would there be any chance or reason for Panasonic to make a 24-100 mm 4/3 camera? I think the size is the decisive factor. It will be larger than the Sony, but may I have little doubt it will be smaller than the Can G1x....With a leica lens, might be a nice answer?

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Juxa
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Re: Are we going to see a fixed lens 4/3 camera?
In reply to Jorginho, Aug 11, 2012

Sony (I believe you think about RX100) is small because it has a significantly smaller sensor than m43 and APS that they use in NEX cameras.

I think there is no need for a fixed lens m43 camera - I doubt it would be significantly smaller than, for example, GF5 or E-PM1, yet they would loose some of the functionality (changeable lenses)

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Jorginho
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I am not too sure about that...
In reply to Juxa, Aug 11, 2012

Look: the Sony RX100 uses the same sensor as the Nikon J1. Did you compare on the comparometer? The SOny is much smaller, especially it is much thinner. All other dimensions are comparable to the Nikon 1 or indeed the GF5. But the lens does not stick out and the body is smaller too.

Now look at the G1x. It does not seem smaller but if we look closely, the swiveling screen really adds to the body. It is now as big as the GF5. So lose that and the EVF, and you are smaller. The Canon 4/3 sensor is slightly bigger than m43s.

So based on these two comparisons I do not think the cam can be as small as the Sony, but it could be as pocketable nevertheless....

In the end, we now have a 1 with a fixed lens, a 4/3 sensor ny Canon with a fixed lens, X1, X100 etc. So why not a Panny. Panny can give it a Leica lens, for very nice IQ...

Look here:

http://camerasize.com/compact/#332,124.358,124.41,315.335,257,ha,t

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photo perzon
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Soon, for many reasons
In reply to Juxa, Aug 11, 2012

Soon. The Canon is already that, but Canon made it too heavy (and it is a larger sensor).

For now, m4/3 is freaking out at Sony $ 695 when m4/3 expects $ 800-1000 for the body, and $ 400 to $ 1000 per lens.

Most people get 2-4 lenses, that is $ 2,000 to 4,000 per user. Compare that to $ 695 !!

Wait till Sony puts a RX200 EVF (external or built in) and a tilt screen on, perhaps even a wide angle or tele attachments.

Another thing the RX100 showed is that at ISO 3200, where it is doing just fine, that size sensor easily accomodates low light venues, restaurants, etc.

A fixed lens can accomodate a lot of situations. And the lack of needed couplings saves a lot of weight and bulk, probably 10 to 20% of the camera.

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Jorginho
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Re: Soon, for many reasons
In reply to photo perzon, Aug 11, 2012

photo perzon wrote:

Soon. The Canon is already that, but Canon made it too heavy (and it is a larger sensor).

For now, m4/3 is freaking out at Sony $ 695 when m4/3 expects $ 800-1000 for the body, and $ 400 to $ 1000 per lens.

Who is freaking out? I am not aware of anyone freaking out. The Sony RX100 is nice for what it is, but it is not comparable with an ILC whe it comes to versatility. So the group that thinks it needs that versatility, will not buiy it.

Which body costs that amount? Not the GF5, which is the closest. Not the GF3, not even the GX1. We are talking about the smallest bodies, not the top of the line DSLR like ones (Om-D, GH2/3, G5).

1000 dollar per lens? There is one. The 12-35 mm. Which is an exceptional, weathersealed lens. At 1200-1300 dollar.

You can get most lenses between 200-500 dollars.

Most people get 2-4 lenses, that is $ 2,000 to 4,000 per user. Compare that to $ 695 !!

If you buy the 14-42 x, the 45-150 x and a 20 1.7 mm prima you are at 1000 dollar. And have a better range than the Sony RX100 by far. And also better low light capabilites.
Which 4 lenses can I buy that set me back 4000 dollar?

Wait till Sony puts a RX200 EVF and a tilt screen on, perhaps even a wide angle or tele attachment.

Thats another discussion.

Another thing the RX100 showed is that at ISO 3200, where it is doing just fine, that size sensor easily accomodates low light venues, restaurants, etc.

May be, but no doubt a sensor twice the size will be a lot better. The RX100 has set the P&S in a whole new light, so I understand your comparison. But RX100 is no substitute for ILCs if you are into the L part of that acronym.

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Ray Sachs
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I doubt it...
In reply to photo perzon, Aug 11, 2012

I think its only you who's "freaking out" about it. Olympus and Panasonic both play in that high-end compact market that Sony just blew up with the RX100. And they both have a huge stake in m43. I think Sony got the jump on everyone else with their 1" sensor and they'll probably have the advantage for a year or so. The LX7 has roughly the same size sensor as the LX5, the same with the Samsung EX2 and EX1, the Fuji X10 is another year away from an update as is the Ricoh GRD4. I guess there's a chance that the Olympus XZ2 might have a bigger sensor, but I'd guess we'd have heard some buzz about it by now if it was going to. So I'd bet that by next year sometime we'll start seeing more small models to compete with the Sony. My wish is slightly larger bodies, better controls, possibly viewfinder options, and a lens that's somewhat faster through the range. But that sensor is clearly the class of the field right now and the others will likely scramble to keep up.

There's some competition between m43 and these compacts, but I think they're mostly different markets with just a bit of overlap. And there are also a lot of people who want a camera system AND a small compact. You don't, but you're just one guy and I don't think you're all that typical - no offense intended. I don't think an m43 fixed lens camera could be much smaller than a gf5 or EPM1 with the collapsable Pany kit lens. And that lens isn't that great, isn't that small, and definitely isn't that fast. If you want a really good fast zoom lens for m43, take a look at the size and weight and price of the new Pany 12-35 and imagine working a fixed lens camera around those parameters! Look at what Canon tried to do with the G1X - great sensor and nice lens but its a pretty large camera and it still has a very slow lens to maintain THAT size. And its sensor is basically the size of an m43 sensor, just slightly larger.

I think Oly and Pany will maintain the m43 system as an ILC - maybe they'd do a boutiquey fixed focal length model like the X100, but I doubt it with all of the great prime lenses in the lineup now. But m43 as their premium system and even lower end ILC, since there's a range of bodies and lenses available, and the XZ and LX series to compete with the RX100. Sony got the jump on them this year and has an advantage right now, but I'm sure they'll be going after that same type of upgrade soon enough.

-Ray
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Juxa
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Re: I am not too sure about that...
In reply to Jorginho, Aug 11, 2012

Yes, but define "much smaller". The Sony is thinner just because of the collapsable lens - the body isn't significantly smaller.

Yet, the other example - GF-5 is significantly smaller than G1x ( you can look at the front side of cameras in the comparometer.

Thinking about it more, I believe that Panasonic might put m4/3 sensor in it's top line of consumer cameras (LX?) and Olympus could do the same with XZ series, but they will cripple them to differentiate them from the mirorless range.

Jorginho wrote:

Look: the Sony RX100 uses the same sensor as the Nikon J1. Did you compare on the comparometer? The SOny is much smaller, especially it is much thinner. All other dimensions are comparable to the Nikon 1 or indeed the GF5. But the lens does not stick out and the body is smaller too.

Now look at the G1x. It does not seem smaller but if we look closely, the swiveling screen really adds to the body. It is now as big as the GF5. So lose that and the EVF, and you are smaller. The Canon 4/3 sensor is slightly bigger than m43s.

So based on these two comparisons I do not think the cam can be as small as the Sony, but it could be as pocketable nevertheless....

In the end, we now have a 1 with a fixed lens, a 4/3 sensor ny Canon with a fixed lens, X1, X100 etc. So why not a Panny. Panny can give it a Leica lens, for very nice IQ...

Look here:

http://camerasize.com/compact/#332,124.358,124.41,315.335,257,ha,t

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Rriley
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In reply to Jorginho, Aug 11, 2012

I took a poll on this in 2007, and it was my first proposition. In the poll interchangeable lens proved to be more popular.

The original idea was based on the fixed lens Olympus Trip. In that way it could have an optical finder, EVF werent terribly good at the time. I think it had the basis of a cult camera

kind of ironic when you think about it

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Jorginho
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Re: I am not too sure about that...
In reply to Juxa, Aug 11, 2012

Juxa wrote:

Yes, but define "much smaller". The Sony is thinner just because of the collapsable lens - the body isn't significantly smaller.

Well, that is subjective as it always is. I think the lenses sticking out of the camera's and the thicker body make the m43s and Nikon 1 clearly less portable. All other dimensiions mean it could fit in a pocket of a shirt.

Yet, the other example - GF-5 is significantly smaller than G1x ( you can look at the front side of cameras in the comparometer.

Thinking about it more, I believe that Panasonic might put m4/3 sensor in it's top line of consumer cameras (LX?) and Olympus could do the same with XZ series, but they will cripple them to differentiate them from the mirorless range.

BVut than we get into the same argument we see with APS-c DSLRs from Canikon: canabalize yourself into your system or let others eat your part?

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Olymore
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Re: Olympus Trip
In reply to Rriley, Aug 11, 2012

To get a compact to sell enough nowadays it needs a zoom lens, preferably starting at 24mm but might get away with 28mm.

Back in the days of the Olympus 35RC, Olympus Trip and later Olympus XA consumers were happy to have a fixed lens around 35mm.
The only company to try that so far has been Sigma with their DP series

I think expectations have changed and that will always make a very compact M43 unlikely or an expensive niche camera due to limited sales.

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Jorginho
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Re: I doubt it...
In reply to Ray Sachs, Aug 11, 2012

I don't think m43 sensored fixed lens cam needs to be as big as the Canon G1X.
Again: get rid of the swiveling display and no EVF. Saves you space and weight.

F2.8 to f4.8 or so is good enough with a 25-100 mm focal length it should be smaller than the Canon.

The Canon sensor is 15% bigger still, not much but it still counts for something.
I mean: the Sony is not f2.8 constantly, is it?

You can make that cam better, thinner and lighter than the Canon with a Leica lens. I think we could think about a body that is thinner than a GF5 with the lens sticking out a little. So it would be smaller, have a much better LEica lens that is somewhat faster. If it is the 16 MPixel sensir they use, it would be nice. If it would be Oly with the Sony sensor, it would be even better.

A lot of ifs and buts. So IF they could do this, I think they should. Otherwise people will go to Sony in part.

Ray Sachs wrote:

I think its only you who's "freaking out" about it. Olympus and Panasonic both play in that high-end compact market that Sony just blew up with the RX100. And they both have a huge stake in m43. I think Sony got the jump on everyone else with their 1" sensor and they'll probably have the advantage for a year or so. The LX7 has roughly the same size sensor as the LX5, the same with the Samsung EX2 and EX1, the Fuji X10 is another year away from an update as is the Ricoh GRD4. I guess there's a chance that the Olympus XZ2 might have a bigger sensor, but I'd guess we'd have heard some buzz about it by now if it was going to. So I'd bet that by next year sometime we'll start seeing more small models to compete with the Sony. My wish is slightly larger bodies, better controls, possibly viewfinder options, and a lens that's somewhat faster through the range. But that sensor is clearly the class of the field right now and the others will likely scramble to keep up.

There's some competition between m43 and these compacts, but I think they're mostly different markets with just a bit of overlap. And there are also a lot of people who want a camera system AND a small compact. You don't, but you're just one guy and I don't think you're all that typical - no offense intended. I don't think an m43 fixed lens camera could be much smaller than a gf5 or EPM1 with the collapsable Pany kit lens. And that lens isn't that great, isn't that small, and definitely isn't that fast. If you want a really good fast zoom lens for m43, take a look at the size and weight and price of the new Pany 12-35 and imagine working a fixed lens camera around those parameters! Look at what Canon tried to do with the G1X - great sensor and nice lens but its a pretty large camera and it still has a very slow lens to maintain THAT size. And its sensor is basically the size of an m43 sensor, just slightly larger.

I think Oly and Pany will maintain the m43 system as an ILC - maybe they'd do a boutiquey fixed focal length model like the X100, but I doubt it with all of the great prime lenses in the lineup now. But m43 as their premium system and even lower end ILC, since there's a range of bodies and lenses available, and the XZ and LX series to compete with the RX100. Sony got the jump on them this year and has an advantage right now, but I'm sure they'll be going after that same type of upgrade soon enough.

-Ray
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MichaelKJ
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Re: I am not too sure about that...
In reply to Juxa, Aug 11, 2012

Juxa said:

Olympus could do the same with XZ series, but they will cripple them to differentiate them from the mirorless range.

The XZ2 is likely to have a difficult time competing against the RX100. There is a big market for this type of camera and Oly would be stupid to cripple their offering.

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Dixa
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Re: Soon, for many reasons
In reply to photo perzon, Aug 11, 2012

it's this guy again

this guy shoots his friends at parties. for his needs a freaking phone camera would suffice

m43 is not pretending to be pocket cameras. ignorant consumers who are looking for an upgrade from their phones but never touched film in their life or know jack about photographic basics think it should be but at no time have panasonic or olympus marketed their gear towards the put-it-in-your-jeans-pocket crowd

photo perzon wrote:

Soon. The Canon is already that, but Canon made it too heavy (and it is a larger sensor).

For now, m4/3 is freaking out at Sony $ 695 when m4/3 expects $ 800-1000 for the body, and $ 400 to $ 1000 per lens.

Most people get 2-4 lenses, that is $ 2,000 to 4,000 per user. Compare that to $ 695 !!

Wait till Sony puts a RX200 EVF (external or built in) and a tilt screen on, perhaps even a wide angle or tele attachments.

Another thing the RX100 showed is that at ISO 3200, where it is doing just fine, that size sensor easily accomodates low light venues, restaurants, etc.

A fixed lens can accomodate a lot of situations. And the lack of needed couplings saves a lot of weight and bulk, probably 10 to 20% of the camera.

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MichaelKJ
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Dear photo perzon
In reply to photo perzon, Aug 11, 2012

Now that you have sold off all of your m4/3 gear and are in love with your RX100, why do you feel the need to continue posting here?

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Jorginho
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That is not so relevant
In reply to Dixa, Aug 11, 2012

Suppose RX100 really sells well and we all know it could. And suppose the P&S market is shrinking (which it is), why would you continue to make somethign that will sell less and less and may be rapidly so (LX7/XZ10) when you could sell a fixed lens m43 system. Indeed: using the same sensor in more camera's would make production cheaper too (I think).

In short: if thre is a good market for it, why not. And if they can keep it the size of the Samsung EX2 or so with a 25-100 mm lens or, if necessary for the size, 25-80 mm. At f2.8 to f4.8. A Leica lens. I think it would sell pretty well.

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Jorginho
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Oh no
In reply to MichaelKJ, Aug 11, 2012

This is turning into a Photo Perzon thread.....Please no.

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Guy Parsons
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And Olympus Mju
In reply to Olymore, Aug 11, 2012

Olymore wrote:

Back in the days of the Olympus 35RC, Olympus Trip and later Olympus XA consumers were happy to have a fixed lens around 35mm.

The later Olympus Mju (Stylus) was my favourite for a pocket sized slide-to-open and turn on camera. With fixed 35mm lens and full frame (film) it worked very well indeed. The later zoom versions of the Mju were not so nice to use. I liked using the Mju better than the earlier XA.

So in 2016 it will be the 25th anniversary of Mju, so how about a full frame sensor with 35mm lens in the same package as before? - It definitely would become a cult camera.

Regards........... Guy

PS in searching for the year I found a good Olympus history page at http://www.star.ucl.ac.uk/~rwesson/esif/om-sif/camhistory/camhistory.htm it stops at 2001 but at least the film camera history seems complete. The official Olympus history page is here http://www.olympus-global.com/en/corc/history/

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Elemental Photography
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Re: Are we going to see a fixed lens 4/3 camera?
In reply to Juxa, Aug 11, 2012

Pretty much this. There doesn't seem to be much of a market for such product, and the GF series is already tiny. I don't think it's so much an issue of cannibalization as that large sensor fixed (I.e noninterchangable) lens cameras are a niche product, and Panasonic/Olympus are mainly targeting a different audience.

I certainly have no interest in such a combination, when so many good, small body/lens combinations exist. I'm tired of having to buy new lenses to get a new sensor, or new sensors to get a new lens.

Juxa wrote:

I think there is no need for a fixed lens m43 camera - I doubt it would be significantly smaller than, for example, GF5 or E-PM1, yet they would loose some of the functionality (changeable lenses)

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Ray Sachs
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Re: I doubt it...
In reply to Jorginho, Aug 11, 2012

I think there's a fundamental relationship between sensor size, camera size, and lens range/speed/quality. Sony has done an amazing thing shoe-horning that large a sensor into that small a body with a pretty nice lens, albeit slow through the range. I think with THAT sensor and a somewhat larger body (maybe something closer to Fuji X10 size), it should be possible to get that sensor with a 24-90 that's reasonably fast and sharp through the range. But the 1" sensor is to m43 as m43 is to full frame - its still a LOT smaller. And trying to get an m43 sensor based camera together to compete with these smaller cameras just sounds like a losing proposition, particularly when they've got such a good thing going with their m43 ILC lineup. As I said, I think the next (2013) iteration of the LX and XZ series from Pany and Oly will compete pretty directly with the Sony and will probably carve out their own share of the market, but I bet they do it with sensors similar in size to the Sony and bodies that are bigger but still much smaller than they could do with an m43 sensor and still maintain the lens size/range/speed/quality equation.

And that sensor size is obviously capable of really really fine results, so I don't see that much need to go for an m43 sensor when the 1" is that good and sure to get better. I don't have any independent knowledge of this, its just my opinion. But I'd be happier to see a real competition at this 1" sensor size rather than trying to shove larger and larger sensors into these cameras. Because there are always going to be tradeoffs associated with the laws of physics, but fewer tradeoffs in sensor quality migrating down into smaller and smaller sensors.

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Jorginho
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Re: Are we going to see a fixed lens 4/3 camera?
In reply to Elemental Photography, Aug 11, 2012

I don't get this. There is a market for small sensor zooms, there is a market for SOny RX100 and G1x kind of zooms. There is a market for X100. But there is no market for a 25-80 mm 4/3 zoom (say with f2.8 to f4.8). Panny uses Leica glass for its P&S. And these tend to be excellent. Excellent sharpness, excellent in virtually everyway.

If I combine these, I think you would have a very nice streetshooting cam, nice for holidays and a bit of landscaping. Anyway: if there is no room for this cam. There is no room for similar ones we see on the market right now.

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