FZ200 samples

Started Aug 7, 2012 | Discussions
jakesan
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Re: FZ200 samples
In reply to Antal J, Aug 8, 2012

I think you are (your brain is) seeing the increased sharpening as better.

I believe that it is always better to apply a small amount of sharpening to an original-sized image (with all the detail retained) than to apply greater sharpening to a resized image.

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bimbobo
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Re: FZ200 samples
In reply to jakesan, Aug 8, 2012

...why all this noise about some samples taken with an "alpha-model" and an experimental firmware.

When the FZ150 came out with fw 0.1 the images were terrible. Then the final model came out and fw1.0 and all is as good as we all know now..

I think this is just "cheap critics" because the first "people do" is digging the bad things.

Wait the released camera and fw and then shoot afterwards.
--
Ignorant photograph beginner

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Hans Gruber
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of course you are right
In reply to bimbobo, Aug 8, 2012

^^^^^This

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sherman_levine
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defocus
In reply to John Miles, Aug 8, 2012

The manual is (as usual) sparse with detail.
http://www.panasonic.net/avc/lumix/compact/fz200/index.html
and click on the "Usability" tab
There's a very small example of a defocus control result.
Sherm

John Miles wrote:

OK, sounds clever. What does it do? Or what is it supposed to do?

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John Miles
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Re: FZ200 samples
In reply to bimbobo, Aug 8, 2012

Image detail retention started becoming impossible to control in OOC jpeg when the efforts to enhance dynamic range hit the high street. There was (is, seems to be) a trade off between crisp edge detail and dynamic range. Early examples of the new issues were discussed at length on this forum and the Fuji forum in respect of retention of foliage detail; whether that was distant tree leaves or lawn grass.

In general to exactly 200% re-sample before beginning processing slows the computer down but does at least retain detail.
--

The FZ50: DSLR handling of a bright Leica 35-420mm lens that's this good: http://www.flickr.com/groups/panasonicfz50/pool/ (slideshow always good). And now add the LX2: http://www.flickr.com/groups/lx2/pool/show/
[Tomorrows camera is better and smaller than todays]

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John Miles
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Re: defocus
In reply to sherman_levine, Aug 8, 2012

Could be a program shift or software smudge or a bit of both.

Thanks for the info.

-- hide signature --

The FZ50: DSLR handling of a bright Leica 35-420mm lens that's this good: http://www.flickr.com/groups/panasonicfz50/pool/ (slideshow always good). And now add the LX2: http://www.flickr.com/groups/lx2/pool/show/
[Tomorrows camera is better and smaller than todays]

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Gary S
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Happens every time...
In reply to bimbobo, Aug 8, 2012

bimbobo wrote:

...why all this noise about some samples taken with an "alpha-model" and an experimental firmware. When the FZ150 came out with fw 0.1 the images were terrible. Then the final model came out and fw1.0 and all is as good as we all know now..

Happens nearly every time on new camera releases. No different this time. And not just the compact digicams, it happens in the forums for the big guns too. You just have to wait for the final product and then make your decision. My final evaluation will come when I have one in my hands.

If it doesn't meet my expectations I'll just list it on ebay for a discounted price and spend the money on something else. No biggie.

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avenriv
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Re: FZ200 samples
In reply to A Girard, Aug 8, 2012

it is interesting they call it super zoom bridge.
then where are the super zoomed pictures ?

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sherman_levine
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Re: FZ200 samples
In reply to avenriv, Aug 8, 2012

all the images with focal length 100 are at "full zoom"

The FZ200 sensor is about 1/6 the width of the 35mm sensor, so the field of view at optical focal length=100mm is about the same as for a 35mm camera with a lens of optical focal length=600mm.

Sherm

avenriv wrote:

it is interesting they call it super zoom bridge.
then where are the super zoomed pictures ?

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Humboldt Jim
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Re: FZ200 samples; Hit the nail on the head!
In reply to jakesan, Aug 8, 2012

What the brain "sees" is more important than resolution of a one pixel line.

HJ

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wkay
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Re: FZ200 samples
In reply to Antal J, Aug 8, 2012

I agree, I dont know any camera that has one pixel resolution.

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wkay
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Re: As compared to.....
In reply to John Miles, Aug 8, 2012

still plenty of circular artifacts in the plant to the left of the sign on the post and in the leaves of the tree above left from it. Looks like flowers also produce the effect. On your first link I thought the circles were flowers but the ones in front of the park bench dont qualify. If the circles are an artifact from the sensor (response to bright points or transitions) they probably can be resolved in firmware.

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jakesan
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Re: FZ200 samples; Hit the nail on the head!
In reply to Humboldt Jim, Aug 8, 2012

What the brain "sees" is more important than resolution of a one pixel line.

Obviously, but why not play to the brain AND retain maximum detail. I used a 1 pixel line example because it so clearly shows the degrading effect of resizing. Every clean edge in a photo will show these losses.

The IQ difference is noticable with real photos even on snapshot size prints.

My point was:

When critically evaluating IQ, using resized images is useless.

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photofan1986
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Re: FZ200 samples; Hit the nail on the head!
In reply to jakesan, Aug 8, 2012

You are confusing resolution and perceived sharpness: those are two different things.

A picture may have very high resolution and seem soft: for example, a raw, unsharpened image from a pro dslr (like Canon 1DS MKIII) seems really soft, but resolution is very high.
On the other hand, you can have a 2 megapixels, very sharp image.

Downsizing reduces image resolution, of course, but increases perceived sharpness. The original image probably has better resolution, but will seem less sharp on screen.

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gkreth
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Re: Resizing bad?
In reply to jakesan, Aug 9, 2012

jakesan wrote:

I have found that resizing, even a small amount, is very very bad for fine detail. Very bad.
-Create a blank sheet in Photoshop (or editor of choice).
-Draw some 1-pixel wide lines to represent fine detail.
-Be sure to put in some vertical and horizontal lines.
-Draw some wider lines and some other shapes.
-Resize it 1% or 50%, it doesn't matter. Try .1% if you have doubts.
-Now look at your lines (yes, pixel peep).
Yuck

You can do some sharpening but sorry, the "real" detail is already gone. Sharpening in this case is a bandaid.

The IQ difference is noticable with real photos even on snapshot size prints.
When critically evaluating IQ using resized images is useless.
... which is why Panasonic is not allowing it.

I'm confused by this.

So, are you saying that, for a 4x6 photo printed on a 300 dpi printer, that photo HAS to be taken at 1200 x 1800, about 2 MP?

Doesn't printing a 10MP, 14MP, etc. photo on a printer in essence resize the photo?

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wkay
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Re: Resizing bad?
In reply to gkreth, Aug 9, 2012

the photo can be taken at any size but a 4x6 300ppi print is only going to use 4x300x6x300 = 2.2meg pixels of them. The printer driver will downscale our friend doesnt like that) the original image size if it is larger. I have plenty of 4x6 photo printer images from an early 3MP camera that are perfect at that size. Having cameras with 20meg pixels is cool but if your output applications never require more than a few meg pixels, it's the buyers call if the money for the camera was well spent.

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jakesan
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Re: Resizing bad?
In reply to wkay, Aug 9, 2012

Yes, resizing (down-sizing) = bad as far as loosing detail is concerned.

Yes, printing un-resized is best... Of course, resizing IS required for printing nearly all of the time! Photo editing workflows always have the resizing step last and strongly warn against multiple resizings, including both manual resizing or printer resizing.

-For large prints I pay careful attention to final pixel dimensions versus the actual printing dimensions of the printer (Fuji Frontier) and instruct the technician to NOT RESIZE. For small prints why bother, resize away.

A large percentage of posts on this forum are about IQ and trying to get the best possible/practical results.
This is just my 2cents.

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peevee1
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Re: FZ200 samples
In reply to A Girard, Aug 9, 2012

A Girard wrote:

A quick search didn't bring up this link in the forum but I assume this was sniffed out already? I think they look good considering like most samples there's no adjustments with the NR settings etc...

http://dpnow.com/8776b.html

Thanks for the link.
Disappointment. Look for example here:

The sky is blown. It is a sunny day judging from the shadows, but all color and texture from the sky completely gone. DR is non-existant.
Ugly fringing in the leaves, especially on the left.
Ugly grenish-yellowish noise on the white car. And this is at ISO 160!

The same is here, only on bigger car the noise even more intrusive:

I guess a tiny sensor is still a tiny sensor, and superzoom is still a superzoom.

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peevee1
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Re: FZ200 samples
In reply to Humboldt Jim, Aug 9, 2012

Humboldt Jim wrote:

The line between µ4/3 and this super zoom keeps getting thinner and grayer.

On the contrary, noise and DR characteristics of m43 sensor improved tremendously in the last year, and some lenses are very good.

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auctionman
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Re: Happens every time...
In reply to Gary S, Aug 10, 2012

If it doesn't meet my expectations I'll just list it on ebay for a discounted price and spend the money on something else. No biggie.

I hope I don't have to sell it. I pre-ordered a few minutes ago, got them to take $50 off the LR4, and ship UPS free. first quality P&S camera for me, tired of lugging around the full frame gear!

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