Finally got angry about lack of 35mm equivalent

Started Jul 31, 2012 | Discussions
chris blaubac
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Finally got angry about lack of 35mm equivalent
Jul 31, 2012

I've really tried not to get annoyed, because in many respects my nex5-n is wonderful, but when I saw this: http://www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/EF_Lenses/EF-M/EF-M_22mm_f_2_STM/

I finally got angry. I've waited patiently for a long time but Sony's continuing inability to provide a reasonably sized 35mm equivalent lens is now a real problem for me.

If Canon can make a reasonably sized 35mm equivalent lens for APS-C then why can't Sony?

It's not just that the Zeiss 24mm is the size of a coke tin - it's also ridiculously expensive.

Much as I love my Snapshot Skopar 25mm, sometimes I simply need a faster lens, and although the sigma 30mm is great it's a 45mm equivalent and only f2.8.

And before anyone mentions it manual focus won't cut it on the street at very wide apertures so legacy lenses are not going to help. I have tried.

I'm really close now to giving up on the nex5n if I need a fast lens at 35mm equivalent focal length. It's even making me consider buying another camera, at least for this focal-length...which is crazy.

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maurus_e
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Re: Finally got angry about lack of 35mm equivalent
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

What about the Sigma 19mm? Just a little wider.
Btw, I love the FOV of the 20/2.8 on my APS-C A-mount cameras.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Finally got angry about lack of 35mm equivalent
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

I used to have a 24mm/2.8 and got rid of it from lack of use. If I need wide angle, I often want something wider than 24mm (or, 35mm equivalent) anyway. In that case, I prefer to walk around with the kit zoom which does a decent job.

My favorite lens NEX is 35mm/1.8. In fact, I had the following for NEX (plus A-mount lenses)...
24mm/2.8
28mm/2.8
55mm/1.8
85mm/2.0

18-55/3.5-5.6
70-150/4

Now I have...
8mm/2.8
50mm/1.4

18-55/3.5-5.6
70-210/2.8-4

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edwardaneal
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it was your choice
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

you bought into a system and I assume that when you did you knew there wasnt a 35mm prime

Now you can either be patient and wait until they make a 35, buy into a system that already has one or get a different focal length.

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flint-hill
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Re: Finally got angry about lack of 35mm equivalent
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

That's unfortunate. You've sure been getting great results with the Skopar.

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headofdestiny
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Re: Finally got angry about lack of 35mm equivalent
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

chris blaubac wrote:

I've really tried not to get annoyed, because in many respects my nex5-n is wonderful, but when I saw this: http://www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/EF_Lenses/EF-M/EF-M_22mm_f_2_STM/

I finally got angry. I've waited patiently for a long time but Sony's continuing inability to provide a reasonably sized 35mm equivalent lens is now a real problem for me.

If Canon can make a reasonably sized 35mm equivalent lens for APS-C then why can't Sony?

It's not just that the Zeiss 24mm is the size of a coke tin - it's also ridiculously expensive.

Much as I love my Snapshot Skopar 25mm, sometimes I simply need a faster lens, and although the sigma 30mm is great it's a 45mm equivalent and only f2.8.

And before anyone mentions it manual focus won't cut it on the street at very wide apertures so legacy lenses are not going to help. I have tried.

I'm really close now to giving up on the nex5n if I need a fast lens at 35mm equivalent focal length. It's even making me consider buying another camera, at least for this focal-length...which is crazy.

Just buy an X100. Granted, I would contend that shooting zone focus on street is a good approach to consider with your Skopar + 5N.

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zackiedawg
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Don't bother getting angry...
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

Angry won't get you anywhere. If you ended up making a poor choice with the system, oh well - learn from your mistake, get a system that makes you happy, and get on with shooting. No camera body or system is going to be perfect for everyone - you might have liked some things about the NEX system when you chose it, but if a 35mm equivalent focal length was crucially important to you from the outset, then you took a known risk and accepted a compromise since no such lens existed. Now that lens still doesn't exist, but at no point was one promised....even if they release 10 more lenses tomorrow, one might not be the focal length you want. So the unfortunate fact is, the NEX probably wasn't the best choice for you as the compromise and risk you took was more important in the end than some of the advantages the NEX system provides.

Your choices are: move to another system that has what you want now, add a second body or camera with that focal length and keep the NEX around as a second system, or continue to wait for future NEX lenses if you can find sufficient other reasons the NEX can work for you. It's always going to be about compromise with cameras and systems - there simply is not, and never will be, a perfect camera and system for every person.

If you decide to stay with the NEX, I'd do so only with the very low expectation of seeing a fixed fast prime in the 35mm equivalent range that is cheap and/or compact...likely the 24mm zeiss IS that lens for that focal equivalent...my guess is the future lens releases will try to cover a whole lot of other holes in the range and demands requested, before they bother to make another lens with the same focal length and speed as one of their existing lenses, except cheaper or smaller.

Whatever your choice, best of luck - hopefully you can either enjoy the system you have without anger or frustration or find the system that will make you happy, so you can just enjoy photography.

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chris blaubac
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Re: Don't bother getting angry...
In reply to zackiedawg, Jul 31, 2012

angry was the wrong word...frustrated would be a better one.

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TiagoReil
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Re: Don't bother getting angry...
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

Agree with what was said begore, angry, or frustrated, you will make wrong desicions if you are not careful and take some time to think things clearly.

As you already said, the nex has a 35 equivalent, is the Zeiss. So you wont see in the near future another one. There are a lot of distances that need filling before sony decides to make ANOTHER 35 equivalent. So if you knew about the zeiss, you knew no lens will be available in a long time.

And about other manufacturers, I have never heard someone said that his system had all the lenses he "needed" . Always the other manufacturers where offering what he needed, and his brand was too slow. I heard it from canon guys, from nikon guys, sony, etc, all. It is the way cameras are, a compromise.

If 35mm (equivalent) is so important to you, check other systems that provide that lens. You need to define what is most important for you. If the lens is, go for another system.

Complaining for a normal rule of photography (there are more lenses that I cant use than the ones I can for my system) is not going to get you anywhere.

chris blaubac wrote:

angry was the wrong word...frustrated would be a better one.

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chris blaubac
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Re: Don't bother getting angry...
In reply to TiagoReil, Jul 31, 2012

I bought into the nex system very early when there were only 3 lenses.

I don't think it was unrealistic to expect a 35mm equivalent at a reasonable size and price.
35mm and 50mm are the classic and most widely used focal lengths.

I'd be interested in comments about that Canon though - how have they managed to make it so small when it is for an APS-C sensor and offers f2?

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Don't bother getting angry...
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

chris blaubac wrote:

I bought into the nex system very early when there were only 3 lenses.

I don't think it was unrealistic to expect a 35mm equivalent at a reasonable size and price.
35mm and 50mm are the classic and most widely used focal lengths.

I'd be interested in comments about that Canon though - how have they managed to make it so small when it is for an APS-C sensor and offers f2?

Probably the same way Sony has delivered 16mm pancake? IMO, though, I would have the Sony pancake if it were 20mm instead.

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RussellInCincinnati
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let's see your work with any Nex 22-24mm
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

Since the 35mm-equivalent focal length is so important to you (but apparently not important enough for you to get the pretty nice eMount 24mm prime), let's see your work with any lens on your Nex at 22-24mm. For example, from one of the Sony light weight kit zooms, eMount (autofocusing, stabilized) or Alpha (needs LAEA2 to autofocus). After all, it would be logical to establish that you have sufficient technique to do justice to the better-than-what-there-is-now lens you want.

You might want to add what it is specifically about your sample photos, that would have been noticeably better, if you'd had the lens you're lacking.

Also, do you know how to work with higher ISOs with the Nex? Before being certain you must have a faster lens? If that idea rubs you the wrong way, perhaps you could critique what about this F/8 ISO 3200 sample (would have needed an F/2 lens at ISO 200) that does not meet your quality criteria. Sony engineers certainly consider things like high-ISO performance, that makes "fast" lenses less important, when deciding to make wider-aperture Nex lenses less of an early manufacturing priority.

Am curious why you so sorely miss the one focal length that both Sony kit zooms do best. Both the 200-gram Nex eMount 18-55

and the often-icily-sharp $50 dollar, 220 gram Alpha mount 18-55 (that requires LAEA1 adapter)

appear to acquit themselves nicely, in both resolution and distortion, at the focal length you're interested in. These lenses do fine wide open as well, at the shorter focal lengths. Both Nex eMount

and Alpha

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headofdestiny
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Re: Don't bother getting angry...
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

chris blaubac wrote:

I bought into the nex system very early when there were only 3 lenses.

I don't think it was unrealistic to expect a 35mm equivalent at a reasonable size and price.
35mm and 50mm are the classic and most widely used focal lengths.

I'd be interested in comments about that Canon though - how have they managed to make it so small when it is for an APS-C sensor and offers f2?

The 22/2 from Canon is about the only interesting thing about that system, to me. Granted, we don't know how good of a performer it is.

Either way, after the release of the Zeiss 24, I wouldn't expect another Sony 24mm lens for a long time, if ever.

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viking79
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Re: Don't bother getting angry...
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

chris blaubac wrote:

I bought into the nex system very early when there were only 3 lenses.

I don't think it was unrealistic to expect a 35mm equivalent at a reasonable size and price.

It is, I would never expect any lens except what is currently available. I think it was pretty well known early on there would be an expensive Zeiss 24 mm f/1.8.

35mm and 50mm are the classic and most widely used focal lengths.

They are two popular focal lengths for film, yes. NEX has the first covered with the Zeiss 24 mm f/1.8 and now they just need a 35 mm to cover the latter.

I'd be interested in comments about that Canon though - how have they managed to make it so small when it is for an APS-C sensor and offers f2?

It uses in camera software corrections of distortion and lateral CA, and we don't know how well it performs yet. Is it going to suffer at the corners?

The Zeiss is large because it is an optically corrected retrofocus lens (similar style to what an SLR lens would be). The Canon 22 mm is a true wide angle design (not retro-focus) and the lack of optical corrections make it much smaller.

Sony could do a similar lens for the NEX system, they just haven't yet. I don't think they will as that would compete with their good selling Zeiss lens (at least it seems to be selling well).

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chris blaubac
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Re: let's see your work with any Nex 22-24mm
In reply to RussellInCincinnati, Jul 31, 2012

I don't understand your response at all, and I'm not too keen on the intimations of poor technique. All of your suggestions fail to address a perfectly good reason for wanting a faster lens;,subject isolation. I have posted a few shots made with a skopar 25 already. Sometimes in street photography however you need to de-clutter the background...and a fast lens will do this.

As for the Zeiss... it's too big and too expensive. That does not mean that 35mm is not important to me.

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davect01
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Re: it was your choice
In reply to edwardaneal, Jul 31, 2012

Or get into the manual focus world. Plenty of options out there in all kinds of lengths.

Sigma makes a 30mm, what's wrong with that one? There is also a 24mm and several others right around the 35mm. I am sorry they don't make the exact lens that YOU think they should.

If none of these lenses do anything for you, and you are unwilling to try manual focusing than I guess it is time to move on.

edwardaneal wrote:

you bought into a system and I assume that when you did you knew there wasn't a 35mm prime

Now you can either be patient and wait until they make a 35, buy into a system that already has one or get a different focal length.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: let's see your work with any Nex 22-24mm
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

Fast, good quality lenses are going to be big (and expensive). Compare Leica 24mm f/1.4 Summilux-M to Leica 24mm f/3.8 Elmar-M for example. At 500g, the former weight nearly twice as much, and is also 50% longer (60mm versus 40mm). Optical designs are about compromises. Personally, costs kept aside, I would gladly take the slow Elmar-M over Canon's faster pancake 22mm or Samyang's 24mm/1.4.

One of the issues I have with 16mm pancake is compromises on IQ for its size. Beyond a certain point, compactness is a non-issue to me. If it were an issue, I would sell my NEX and get RX100 instead.

As far as bokeh goes, these aren't the focal lengths for it. When I think 20-28mm, I think landscapes, where I find f/5.6-11 a more useful range than f/2-f/4. And for those rare times when you might want to take low light images, what is wrong with f/2.8? That is my walk around lens on A55 (16-50 f/2.8 SSM) if carrying a zoom and it does a fine job. In fact, my much slower travel zoom (Sigma 18-250, which is f/4 at 24mm) gets the job done as well.

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chris blaubac
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Re: it was your choice
In reply to davect01, Jul 31, 2012

I mentioned the sigma in my post. I have it and it's very good but it's slow (subject isolation would really benefit from f1.4 or at least f2). As for manual focus, I use it sometimes, but in street photography at wide apertures it is a hit and miss affair.

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zackiedawg
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Re: Don't bother getting angry...
In reply to chris blaubac, Jul 31, 2012

chris blaubac wrote:

I bought into the nex system very early when there were only 3 lenses.

I don't think it was unrealistic to expect a 35mm equivalent at a reasonable size and price.

No, not unreasonable at all. A risk, nonetheless, but not unreasonable.

The problem comes in when they do release a fast near-35mm equivalent prime - then the definition of 'reasonable size and price' come into play, and those have tons of variability. What's reasonably sized to one person may not be for another, and reasonable price is based on one's ability to afford such things.

Here's where it gets tricky: I don't have any real need for this type of lens myself, however, if I did, I might actually prefer the larger form factor of the 24mm Zeiss over that of a thin pancake. While I have been enjoying the compactness of the 16mm pancake, I also think of it as precisely that: A very compact lens for fun/travel/ lightweight needs. I don't think of it as a serious 'artistry' lens - if I were fairly serious about shooting portraits with a fast 35mm-equivalent prime, I wouldn't feel as comfortable doing so with a thin wafer of a camera - I find the larger lens barrel to provide a much more secure and stable grip on the camera and lens package, which would play into portraiture and serious photography.

Again though, each person thinks differently on this. Where I clearly seperate 'compact and small for travel and fun' from 'serious photography' - in that I actually prefer a bit more beef to a camera for serious shooting, others may strongly prefer a light and small camera at all times, for their fun and casual as well as their serious shooting. It's well nigh impossible to make one camera and lens package that can satisfy both types, because any form of lens barrel is going to upset those that want it compact, and any lack of a lens barrel upsets those who prefer a more stable two-handed stance and hold.

35mm and 50mm are the classic and most widely used focal lengths.

True- and I think they're OK on the 50mm front - they've got their slowish macro 30mm and Sigma's decent 30mm F2.8. It seems likely another prime in this range will be coming from Sony, maybe something like a 35mm F1.8.

I'd be interested in comments about that Canon though - how have they managed to make it so small when it is for an APS-C sensor and offers f2?

I don't see it being hard to do at all, really. Just as Sony did with the 16mm (looking at how small the lens itself is compared to the barrel diameter, they could easily double, even triple, the end-glass size in the same pancake barrel, meaning they could easily put a faster aperture in the same lens body) or how Panny and Oly do with their M4:3 pancakes...it's not so much about the capability to do it, it's about the desire/need/justification to do it. Sony obviously has not felt that 'pancakes' were as important to the majority of their buyers as folks here on these forums think they are. They are likely becoming more aware of that criticism, which is why it seems a pancake prime or two is on the future release slate, as well as possibly some collapsible zooms.

I can only offer my own completely personal opinion - so far, I would not be drawn to the Canon system for my needs. I prefer the NEX bodystyle and grip design, the tilting screen, the option for an EVF, the battery life, and being apparently an oddball compared to many here on the NEX forums, I actually like a bit of a lens barrel to hold onto so the kit lens size and even the 55-210mm lens are very comfortable for me to shoot with. The 16mm is good in a pinch when I need compact, but I am not as comfortable holding the camera with a tiny lens as I am when I've got a bit of lens barrel to cradle my left hand under. I also don't have any pressing need for a 35mm equivalent focal length prime for my own shooting - I can cover that focal with the kit when I need it, but generally don't use it often. I much prefer the wider spectrum of 15-28mm equiv or the much longer telephoto range from 75mm and up. Again, just for my own shooting needs.

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headofdestiny
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Re: Don't bother getting angry...
In reply to viking79, Jul 31, 2012

The Canon 22/2 isn't a symmetrical wide angle design. In fact, it looks to have a similar design philosophy to the Sigma 30/2.8, although, we obviously don't know how well the Canon will perform, yet.

Canon 22/2:

Sigma 30/2.8:

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