APS-C snobbery and the future of m43

Started Jul 29, 2012 | Discussions
jl_smith
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,315Gear list
Like?
APS-C snobbery and the future of m43
Jul 29, 2012

Hi.

I have owned a lot of cameras and lenses during my years of capturing memories. Up to this day, every camera has pleased me with its output, as long as I (as the operator) did my part.

When I psychically tried the OM-D on the internet by visiting camerasize.com and looking at lots of 100% crops (and then visiting my bathroom and holding a bar of soap, pretending it was the OM-D), I thought the body was good and the photos also. Certainly better, in a technical sense, than my Canon S95.

As a user of Canon FF and APS-C, Sony crop and FF, Nikon crop and FF (and V1 rental), Pentax crop, Olympus 43, Canon P&S and soon m43 (OM-D), I must say Olympus has taken good strides in improving their IQ with the OM-D.

It even gives my 5D2 an honest run for its money, all things considered.

In spite of this, I still see threads like "should I just keep my DSLR?" Why? You will NEVER get the great m43 output in as small of a package if you stick with your DSLR.

So really, sensor size being a panacea to "good photos" is complete rubbish. And people on the "giant sensor" boards are rubbish too. They defend their system investments to the death, refusing to realize proper planning from a photographer means much more than any trivial sensor size differences, unless they buy their $12,000 600mm f/4 lenses, which will never be forgotten because they're mistaken for weapons or something (and the backpain is semi-permanent).

Just buy an m43 camera and be happy with it, I say. The other boards make you think you have to shoot 4x6 sensors to make a living. A m43 camera will be with you all the time; the other stuff is too heavy!

Take it from me, a complete nobody on an international forum that doesn't even own my OM-D yet (but I've got it coming next week).

(for those confused: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=42138975 )

 jl_smith's gear list:jl_smith's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1 Canon EOS 6D Olympus E-M1 Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH +3 more
helimech
Contributing MemberPosts: 588Gear list
Like?
;o) (nt)
In reply to jl_smith, Jul 29, 2012

no text

 helimech's gear list:helimech's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH Panasonic Lumix G Vario 100-300mm F4-5.6 OIS Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8 Samyang 7.5mm F3.5 UMC Fisheye MFT +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
M Hamilton
Contributing MemberPosts: 649Gear list
Like?
Re: APS-C snobbery and the future of m43
In reply to jl_smith, Jul 29, 2012

WIN!

 M Hamilton's gear list:M Hamilton's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-TX5 Ricoh GR Digital IV Olympus PEN E-P3 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 100-300mm F4-5.6 OIS +6 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Art_P
Veteran MemberPosts: 9,019Gear list
Like?
I can see a reason
In reply to jl_smith, Jul 29, 2012

for keeping my old APS-C (or FF, or 4/3) body around... that would be if I had one or more really special lenses in that format that I didn't want to be without.

The 4/3 12-60 might have been one of those lenses for me, (never had Canikon gear so no APS in my collection) but it was stolen along w most of my 4/3 gear a while back, and I never replaced it. For now I'm happy w the m.12-50, so no need for the 12-60 (and no need to replace my 520 w another 4/3 body.

Of course, introduce adapters that AF the old lenses, and the only reason to keep a bigger camera is wanting the bulk to hang big lenses on.
--
Art P
"I am a creature of contrast,
of light and shadow.
I live where the two play together,
I thrive on the conflict"

 Art_P's gear list:Art_P's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8 +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dnercesian
Contributing MemberPosts: 560
Like?
Re: APS-C snobbery and the future of m43
In reply to jl_smith, Jul 29, 2012

If we could award gold stars on this forum, you my friend, would get one from me. I was laughing just when I read the title because I knew what thread this was about.

Bravo and good day to you!

jl_smith wrote:

Hi.

I have owned a lot of cameras and lenses during my years of capturing memories. Up to this day, every camera has pleased me with its output, as long as I (as the operator) did my part.

When I psychically tried the OM-D on the internet by visiting camerasize.com and looking at lots of 100% crops (and then visiting my bathroom and holding a bar of soap, pretending it was the OM-D), I thought the body was good and the photos also. Certainly better, in a technical sense, than my Canon S95.

As a user of Canon FF and APS-C, Sony crop and FF, Nikon crop and FF (and V1 rental), Pentax crop, Olympus 43, Canon P&S and soon m43 (OM-D), I must say Olympus has taken good strides in improving their IQ with the OM-D.

It even gives my 5D2 an honest run for its money, all things considered.

In spite of this, I still see threads like "should I just keep my DSLR?" Why? You will NEVER get the great m43 output in as small of a package if you stick with your DSLR.

So really, sensor size being a panacea to "good photos" is complete rubbish. And people on the "giant sensor" boards are rubbish too. They defend their system investments to the death, refusing to realize proper planning from a photographer means much more than any trivial sensor size differences, unless they buy their $12,000 600mm f/4 lenses, which will never be forgotten because they're mistaken for weapons or something (and the backpain is semi-permanent).

Just buy an m43 camera and be happy with it, I say. The other boards make you think you have to shoot 4x6 sensors to make a living. A m43 camera will be with you all the time; the other stuff is too heavy!

Take it from me, a complete nobody on an international forum that doesn't even own my OM-D yet (but I've got it coming next week).

(for those confused: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=42138975 )

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mike Fewster
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,479
Like?
IQ and sensor size
In reply to jl_smith, Jul 29, 2012

Bigger sensors do give (everything else being equal) better IQ, but and it's a big but, it is nowhere near the advantage that is often claimed. Most people compare the area of the two sensors. If you do this, the APS-C looks (on paper) to be much bigger. In fact to compare things like theoretical resolution, you only compare the length of the sides. When you do this, the advantage of APS-C becomes much smaller, so much so that it is very dubious that it can be discerned by eye without doing really big prints.
And then of course there is that "everything else being equal" clause.

For the same reason, IQ of FF over APS-C is nowhere near as big as many think (although the gap is considerably bigger than between APS-C and MFT)
--
Mike Fewster
Adelaide Australia

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Crimguy
Contributing MemberPosts: 503Gear list
Like?
Re: APS-C snobbery and the future of m43
In reply to jl_smith, Jul 29, 2012

Well said - it reminded me of that Star Trek episode where Spock had a goatee ;-D

I have another point to make as well: who the h*ll said you have to have only one camera?? By all means, keep that DSLR and enjoy your m43 camera as well. And stop worrying about which "is better." Make yourself "better."

jl_smith wrote:

Hi.

I have owned a lot of cameras and lenses during my years of capturing memories. Up to this day, every camera has pleased me with its output, as long as I (as the operator) did my part.

When I psychically tried the OM-D on the internet by visiting camerasize.com and looking at lots of 100% crops (and then visiting my bathroom and holding a bar of soap, pretending it was the OM-D), I thought the body was good and the photos also. Certainly better, in a technical sense, than my Canon S95.

As a user of Canon FF and APS-C, Sony crop and FF, Nikon crop and FF (and V1 rental), Pentax crop, Olympus 43, Canon P&S and soon m43 (OM-D), I must say Olympus has taken good strides in improving their IQ with the OM-D.

It even gives my 5D2 an honest run for its money, all things considered.

In spite of this, I still see threads like "should I just keep my DSLR?" Why? You will NEVER get the great m43 output in as small of a package if you stick with your DSLR.

So really, sensor size being a panacea to "good photos" is complete rubbish. And people on the "giant sensor" boards are rubbish too. They defend their system investments to the death, refusing to realize proper planning from a photographer means much more than any trivial sensor size differences, unless they buy their $12,000 600mm f/4 lenses, which will never be forgotten because they're mistaken for weapons or something (and the backpain is semi-permanent).

Just buy an m43 camera and be happy with it, I say. The other boards make you think you have to shoot 4x6 sensors to make a living. A m43 camera will be with you all the time; the other stuff is too heavy!

Take it from me, a complete nobody on an international forum that doesn't even own my OM-D yet (but I've got it coming next week).

(for those confused: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=42138975 )

 Crimguy's gear list:Crimguy's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Olympus OM-D E-M5 Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II Canon EF 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6 DO IS USM Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Dixa
Contributing MemberPosts: 808
Like?
Re: APS-C snobbery and the future of m43
In reply to jl_smith, Jul 29, 2012

there is a fundamental difference in depth of field between the two systems. but outside of that unless you plan to print everything 20x30 m43 is quite good.

it's also smaller and lighter. it's not necessarily cheaper, but quality is excellent.

there are enough pro's swapping to e-m5's now that others are starting to take note. and good luck find most m43 stuff in stock - e-m5 grips, panasonic 25mm 1.4, lens hoods for everything, spare batteries for e-m5....sigh.

jl_smith wrote:

Hi.

I have owned a lot of cameras and lenses during my years of capturing memories. Up to this day, every camera has pleased me with its output, as long as I (as the operator) did my part.

When I psychically tried the OM-D on the internet by visiting camerasize.com and looking at lots of 100% crops (and then visiting my bathroom and holding a bar of soap, pretending it was the OM-D), I thought the body was good and the photos also. Certainly better, in a technical sense, than my Canon S95.

As a user of Canon FF and APS-C, Sony crop and FF, Nikon crop and FF (and V1 rental), Pentax crop, Olympus 43, Canon P&S and soon m43 (OM-D), I must say Olympus has taken good strides in improving their IQ with the OM-D.

It even gives my 5D2 an honest run for its money, all things considered.

In spite of this, I still see threads like "should I just keep my DSLR?" Why? You will NEVER get the great m43 output in as small of a package if you stick with your DSLR.

So really, sensor size being a panacea to "good photos" is complete rubbish. And people on the "giant sensor" boards are rubbish too. They defend their system investments to the death, refusing to realize proper planning from a photographer means much more than any trivial sensor size differences, unless they buy their $12,000 600mm f/4 lenses, which will never be forgotten because they're mistaken for weapons or something (and the backpain is semi-permanent).

Just buy an m43 camera and be happy with it, I say. The other boards make you think you have to shoot 4x6 sensors to make a living. A m43 camera will be with you all the time; the other stuff is too heavy!

Take it from me, a complete nobody on an international forum that doesn't even own my OM-D yet (but I've got it coming next week).

(for those confused: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=42138975 )

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Optical1
Senior MemberPosts: 1,005Gear list
Like?
Re: APS-C snobbery and the future of m43
In reply to jl_smith, Jul 29, 2012

JL smith for post of the year! Well played air! Well played!

 Optical1's gear list:Optical1's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Sony RX100 Sony RX1 Ricoh GR Olympus PEN E-PM1 +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Yohan Pamudji
Senior MemberPosts: 2,857
Like?
Nice rebuttal
In reply to jl_smith, Jul 29, 2012

Even if obviously tongue-in-cheek, very nice retort to the troll post. APS-C snobs are the funniest. At least FF snobs have a leg to stand on.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Winston Loo
Contributing MemberPosts: 681Gear list
Like?
Re: Nice rebuttal
In reply to Yohan Pamudji, Jul 29, 2012

Bravo!!! Well said!!

 Winston Loo's gear list:Winston Loo's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZR3 Olympus PEN E-PL5 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Lumix G Vario HD 14-140mm F4-5.8 OIS +6 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
sean000
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,747Gear list
Like?
Re: it's all about the lenses.
In reply to jl_smith, Jul 29, 2012

I shoot both APS-C and m4/3. The quality of the lens has a much greater impact on IQ than the sensor. If you are going to split hairs by shooting with the sensor that looks best to you in 100% crops taken from controlled tests, then I hope you are shooting with quality lenses and a tripod. Anything less is going to limit the potential of your sensor.

For me m4/3 is more about the extremely portable quality native lenses in focal lengths I want to use than it is about a sensor. Of course I'm happy to have a sensor upgrade going from the GF1 to the E-M5, but you only see the benefits of the newer sensor in some shots. You can see the difference a quality lens makes in just about every shot.

Sean

 sean000's gear list:sean000's gear list
Olympus Stylus XZ-10 Nikon D70 Nikon D200 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 +13 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
maimou
Forum MemberPosts: 75Gear list
Like?
Re: APS-C snobbery and the future of m43
In reply to Dixa, Jul 29, 2012

there are enough pro's swapping to e-m5's now that others are starting to take note.

I really think this is the key to M4/3's long term success.

The average consumer does not care about sensor size.
The average consumer just wants to know what the pros are using.
If the pros are using dSLR, the average consumer will want dSLR.
If the pros are using m4/3, the average consumer will want m4/3.

Marketing cameras is not rocket science.
Monkey see, monkey do!

Has anyone actually kept track of how many prominent pros have switched over to M4/3... or have incorporated m4/3 into their toolbox in a significant way?
I look forward to seeing this list grow in the future.

Given the excitement about M4/3 by many experts and the failure (at this point in time) by other brands to respond with a real competitor to M4/3, I think M4/3 is on the cusp of significant international market share! (they are already doing big numbers in Japan)

I also look forward to the day when all other camera users refer to the giant "Olympasonic" in the way we now refer to "Canikon".

OMG... I have only had my E-M5 for a couple of weeks and I think I am already becoming a fanboy!

 maimou's gear list:maimou's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
rsenk19
Regular MemberPosts: 164Gear list
Like?
Re: APS-C snobbery and the future of m43
In reply to maimou, Jul 29, 2012

As stated in the previous reply, m 4/3 market is picking up here in Japan.

Young enthusiastic photographers and prosumers are showing more interest in compactness and option to choose their lenses.

I m seeing more crowd staring at Pany and Oly models of bodies in the large electronic stores. Price range and the choice of lenses are the reasons. (Compared to Sony's NEX series)

Cheers,
Senthil

 rsenk19's gear list:rsenk19's gear list
Olympus XZ-1 Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax smc D-FA 100mm F2.8 Macro WR Pentax smc DA 35mm F2.4 AL Pentax smc DA 50mm F1.8
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
papillon_65
Forum ProPosts: 15,677Gear list
Like?
Don't forget the mythical IQ of the DSLR.....
In reply to jl_smith, Jul 29, 2012

My favourite phrase that's often trotted out is "I like my m4/3's camera but for my serious stuff I use a DSLR". To date nobody yet has shown me the distinction between a "serious" image and a non-serious image. Apparently the mirror in a DSLR has magical properties, just like those "huge" APS-C sensors that can smash dof into nothingness while a "tiny" m4/3's sensor has limitless dof on a lens at F1.4. You've gotta love these little gems :).
--
Any problem on earth can be solved by a well aimed Pomegranate...
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

 papillon_65's gear list:papillon_65's gear list
Canon PowerShot G1 X Sigma DP1 Merrill Sigma DP2 Merrill Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ200 Canon EOS 5D Mark II +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
zxaar
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,122
Like?
Re: Don't forget the mythical IQ of the DSLR.....
In reply to papillon_65, Jul 29, 2012

papillon_65 wrote:

My favourite phrase that's often trotted out is "I like my m4/3's camera but for my serious stuff I use a DSLR". To date nobody yet has shown me the distinction between a "serious" image and a non-serious image. Apparently the mirror in a DSLR has magical properties, just like those "huge" APS-C sensors that can smash dof into nothingness while a "tiny" m4/3's sensor has limitless dof on a lens at F1.4. You've gotta love these little gems :).

If you love all these gems then you would love the cake of hypocrisy in m43 land where the sensor is small enough to provide pocketable solution because of supposedly small lenses because ofsmall sensor, same time there is virtually no size differences between apc and m43 sensor for any iq advantage.

With all the fanboy talk in this forum i have yet to see a photographer who has used m43 and his images are hanging a museum or won some international awards.

As i said few days ago, m43 is forum of most deluded fanboys who need to start such threads to console each other on their choices of cameras.

This is another one of those threads.

-- hide signature --

::> Knowledge is mother of efficiency.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Clayton1985
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,654
Like?
Re: Don't forget the mythical IQ of the DSLR.....
In reply to papillon_65, Jul 29, 2012

There are differences in image quality although the gap has narrowed considerably. But IMO the bigger difference has always been the system moreso than just the sensor (which everyone seems to obsess over). Flash systems, lens selection, weather sealing, features, accessories, etc. The latest m4/3 gear shows that Panasonic and Olympus are starting to focus on these gaps with weather sealed bodies, professional lenses like the 12-35, etc.

I also think the idea that smaller is ALWAYS better is not really true. It is a different experience entirely when I take my DSLR gear out and I enjoy working with the bigger camera, lenses, etc. I like the option to choose based on the occasion.

That being said .. if forced to choose one system it would be a really difficult decision today and that would not have been the case in the past.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Klarno
Senior MemberPosts: 2,902Gear list
Like?
Re: Don't forget the mythical IQ of the DSLR.....
In reply to zxaar, Jul 29, 2012

zxaar wrote:

With all the fanboy talk in this forum i have yet to see a photographer who has used m43 and his images are hanging a museum or won some international awards.

This kind of photographer normally does not get his excitement by posting on forums, nor does this kind of photographer usually mention his gear. Because this kind of photographer knows that his audience doesn't care.
--
http://www.photoklarno.com

 Klarno's gear list:Klarno's gear list
Olympus PEN E-PL1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital 14-54mm 1:2.8-3.5 II Olympus Zuiko Digital 11-22mm 1:2.8-3.5 +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
papillon_65
Forum ProPosts: 15,677Gear list
Like?
Right on cue - the efficiency gap...
In reply to zxaar, Jul 29, 2012

zxaar wrote:

papillon_65 wrote:

My favourite phrase that's often trotted out is "I like my m4/3's camera but for my serious stuff I use a DSLR". To date nobody yet has shown me the distinction between a "serious" image and a non-serious image. Apparently the mirror in a DSLR has magical properties, just like those "huge" APS-C sensors that can smash dof into nothingness while a "tiny" m4/3's sensor has limitless dof on a lens at F1.4. You've gotta love these little gems :).

If you love all these gems then you would love the cake of hypocrisy in m43 land where the sensor is small enough to provide pocketable solution because of supposedly small lenses because ofsmall sensor, same time there is virtually no size differences between apc and m43 sensor for any iq advantage.

And your point is?

With all the fanboy talk in this forum i have yet to see a photographer who has used m43 and his images are hanging a museum or won some international awards.

No? here's one for you, or is he not up to your high standards?
http://www.marcrogoff.com/blog.php
additionally he said this, and I quote:

"I have included a quick and dirty test of my D3X with 85mm 1.4 and the OMD with 45mm both at base iso and the findings were pretty staggering.....I did some pretty extensive testing and the OMD came out sharper in all the tests I did. The first screenshot is the OMD and the second is the D3X. Obviously there is more to image quality than sharpness but take it from me...this is a huge leap forward for Olympus."

You can find it here:
http://www.marcrogoff.com/blog.php

But you know better right?

As I've asked you before, if all this is so distasteful to you how come you spend so much time trolling here? You still haven't answered, or to put it another way, you continue to say nothing of any consequence.

As i said few days ago, m43 is forum of most deluded fanboys who need to start such threads to console each other on their choices of cameras.

Perhaps you'd like to email him and tell him how wrong he is because clearly he's one of us "fanboys".

This is another one of those threads.

-- hide signature --

::> Knowledge is mother of efficiency.

Thanks again for another "knowledge" filled post. I guess you take "inefficiency" to a whole new level
--
Any problem on earth can be solved by a well aimed Pomegranate...
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

 papillon_65's gear list:papillon_65's gear list
Canon PowerShot G1 X Sigma DP1 Merrill Sigma DP2 Merrill Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ200 Canon EOS 5D Mark II +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
papillon_65
Forum ProPosts: 15,677Gear list
Like?
Re: Don't forget the mythical IQ of the DSLR.....
In reply to Clayton1985, Jul 29, 2012

Clayton1985 wrote:

There are differences in image quality although the gap has narrowed considerably. But IMO the bigger difference has always been the system moreso than just the sensor (which everyone seems to obsess over). Flash systems, lens selection, weather sealing, features, accessories, etc. The latest m4/3 gear shows that Panasonic and Olympus are starting to focus on these gaps with weather sealed bodies, professional lenses like the 12-35, etc.

So I hear, without anyone actually ever being able to demonstrate it (FF+ excepted)

I also think the idea that smaller is ALWAYS better is not really true. It is a different experience entirely when I take my DSLR gear out and I enjoy working with the bigger camera, lenses, etc. I like the option to choose based on the occasion.

It has nothing to do with size, a good sensor is a good sensor, the camera body size is largely irrelevant if the sensor is large enough and the lenses are good enough.

That being said .. if forced to choose one system it would be a really difficult decision today and that would not have been the case in the past.

-- hide signature --

Any problem on earth can be solved by a well aimed Pomegranate...
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

 papillon_65's gear list:papillon_65's gear list
Canon PowerShot G1 X Sigma DP1 Merrill Sigma DP2 Merrill Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ200 Canon EOS 5D Mark II +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads