"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"

Started Jul 27, 2012 | Discussions
papillon_65
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"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"
Jul 27, 2012

I love a good film quote so first prize goes to the person who spots the film ;). Anyway, I digress. Not too long ago I heard the forlorn cry "where are the fast zooms on m4/3's ?" on occasions too numerous to count. So Panasonic release a very high quality constant F2.8 zoom which I now own. I can tell you that it is a very well made lens, it has the classic range of 24-70mm in 135 terms, it's a constant F2.8, it has very effective OIS, it's an excellent performer, it's weathersealed, it's small and light for what it offers, it's sharp at F2.8 and very consistent throughout it's range across the frame.

So now I hear "it's over-priced!". Really? I mean do you expect a lens like this to cost the same as a kit zoom or just a little more? Seriously?. Try and find a lens this good and this small anywhere else. Don't expect the price to plummet either, lenses like this are not cheap and never will be. Don't try to tell me the Zuiko 14-54mm is a better option, it isn't and it isn't as good, I've owned one and it was a very nice lens but the 12-35mm is better. So quit the whining, you got your fast zoom and no its not cheap, quality lenses rarely are, so I say again.....

"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"

Just saying ;).
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dave aston
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Re: "Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"
In reply to papillon_65, Jul 27, 2012

Aliens

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thinkfat
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Aliens
In reply to papillon_65, Jul 27, 2012

Ripley to Cutter Burke, if I'm not mistaken.

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Bob Meyer
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In reply to papillon_65, Jul 27, 2012

Just like politics. We want the government to pave our roads, build and fix our schools, pay a decent wage to our teachers, take care of use when we get old, fight wars, protect the border, blah, blah, blah. "What do you mean I have to pay taxes?"

"Why can't I get a 12-100mm f 1.4 zoom that's only weighs 10 oz, takes 46mm filters, and costs $199? Panasonic's ripping me off by not giving me that lens!"
--

I've told myself to stop using "equivalent" focal lengths on m43. 25mm is what it is, and what it might be similar to on some other format doesn't matter to me any more. We need to learn what to expect from our current equipment, not keep mapping it to the old. No one refers to their 50mm FF lens as "equivalent to 80mm on MF."

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dcassat
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In reply to papillon_65, Jul 27, 2012

cheap!

The competition and market will discern whether this lens is priced correctly, we don't really have to do anything.

Except wait for the price to drop!

The fact is, the 12-35 would be a perfect fit for the way I shoot. But I just bought a $1000 camera. So perhaps when hell freezes over, I'll get everything I want.

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jcharding
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Re: "Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"
In reply to papillon_65, Jul 27, 2012

I always find the wailing about prices perplexing, and I wonder if it has something to do with a person's photographic origins. I suspect most of the DSLR migrators have no problems with prices - as we have been staring at those prices for years. I suspect the users who either migrated for P&S or are new are baffled by the prices.

For me, I bought a used Nikon 70-200/2.8 five years ago for $1400 and sold it a couple weeks ago for $1300. Both prices would have been higher had it had missing little things like a tripod foot and case. But it exemplifies a simple point. Quality glass is expensive, and it will remains so unless the system totally dies - and even then it might still be expensive. A 15 year old lens - the Minolta 80-200mm (possibly my favorite lens ever) STILL sells for about $1100-$1200. Sony won't repair it if it breaks. Its heavy. The AF is slow. And that is what it costs.

A new Canon 17-35/2.8 will set you back $1500. The Canon 24mm/1.4 runs $1600. And on and on and on. Incremental improvements in lenses do not cost linearly more. They are expensive. Very expensive. m43 is no different.
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papillon_65
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In reply to dave aston, Jul 27, 2012

a bit easy that one, must try harder :).
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MadsR
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In reply to papillon_65, Jul 27, 2012

Aliens obviously, as others have pointed out already

And yes, it is a fantastic lens, it is very cheap compared to the pro 24-70 lenses with which it shares it's spec (well all but the bulk :D) But people like to complain, apparently especially in the mft section of this board...

Now where is my pony? I was promised a pony!!

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Everdog
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Hey, maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events....
In reply to papillon_65, Jul 27, 2012

Hey, maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events, but we just got our a$$es kicked pal!

Not sure how that relates, but another great quote form Aliens.

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papillon_65
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Re: Hey, maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events....
In reply to Everdog, Jul 27, 2012

Everdog wrote:

Hey, maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events, but we just got our a$$es kicked pal!

Wasn't that a Canon exec on the release of m4/3's ;).

Not sure how that relates, but another great quote form Aliens.

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papillon_65
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Re: We all want a pony included
In reply to MadsR, Jul 27, 2012

MadsR wrote:

Aliens obviously, as others have pointed out already

And yes, it is a fantastic lens, it is very cheap compared to the pro 24-70 lenses with which it shares it's spec (well all but the bulk :D) But people like to complain, apparently especially in the mft section of this board...

Now where is my pony? I was promised a pony!!

You haven't seen the Panasonic "Pony back" offer then?
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itairom
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Re: "Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"
In reply to papillon_65, Jul 27, 2012

papillon_65 wrote:

So quit the whining, you got your fast zoom and no its not cheap, quality lenses rarely are, so I say again.....

Hear, hear... Some people seem to have convinced themselves that m43 is supposed to be cheap. The consumer-level lenses are, but those lenses are always cheap. Fast zooms never are.

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tedolf
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Actually, good lenses are free.....
In reply to jcharding, Jul 27, 2012

jcharding wrote:

I always find the wailing about prices perplexing, and I wonder if it has something to do with a person's photographic origins. I suspect most of the DSLR migrators have no problems with prices - as we have been staring at those prices for years. I suspect the users who either migrated for P&S or are new are baffled by the prices.

For me, I bought a used Nikon 70-200/2.8 five years ago for $1400 and sold it a couple weeks ago for $1300. Both prices would have been higher had it had missing little things like a tripod foot and case. But it exemplifies a simple point. Quality glass is expensive, and it will remains so unless the system totally dies - and even then it might still be expensive. A 15 year old lens - the Minolta 80-200mm (possibly my favorite lens ever) STILL sells for about $1100-$1200. Sony won't repair it if it breaks. Its heavy. The AF is slow. And that is what it costs.

A new Canon 17-35/2.8 will set you back $1500. The Canon 24mm/1.4 runs $1600. And on and on and on. Incremental improvements in lenses do not cost linearly more. They are expensive. Very expensive. m43 is no different.
--
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they pretty much never depreciate in value so you are just "renting" them with the time value of your money.

Of all the legacy glass I own, all of it bought used, they are all worth at least (or more) than what I paid for them.

it is bodies that are expensive, not lenses.

TEdolph

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papillon_65
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Do know what Ted?....
In reply to tedolf, Jul 27, 2012

tedolf wrote:

jcharding wrote:

I always find the wailing about prices perplexing, and I wonder if it has something to do with a person's photographic origins. I suspect most of the DSLR migrators have no problems with prices - as we have been staring at those prices for years. I suspect the users who either migrated for P&S or are new are baffled by the prices.

For me, I bought a used Nikon 70-200/2.8 five years ago for $1400 and sold it a couple weeks ago for $1300. Both prices would have been higher had it had missing little things like a tripod foot and case. But it exemplifies a simple point. Quality glass is expensive, and it will remains so unless the system totally dies - and even then it might still be expensive. A 15 year old lens - the Minolta 80-200mm (possibly my favorite lens ever) STILL sells for about $1100-$1200. Sony won't repair it if it breaks. Its heavy. The AF is slow. And that is what it costs.

A new Canon 17-35/2.8 will set you back $1500. The Canon 24mm/1.4 runs $1600. And on and on and on. Incremental improvements in lenses do not cost linearly more. They are expensive. Very expensive. m43 is no different.
--
http://jcharding.zenfolio.com/

they pretty much never depreciate in value so you are just "renting" them with the time value of your money.

Of all the legacy glass I own, all of it bought used, they are all worth at least (or more) than what I paid for them.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=42128416

it is bodies that are expensive, not lenses.

TEdolph

I don't think you've ever mentioned that before ;).
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tedolf
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Re: Do know what Ted?....
In reply to papillon_65, Jul 27, 2012

papillon_65 wrote:

tedolf wrote:

jcharding wrote:

I always find the wailing about prices perplexing, and I wonder if it has something to do with a person's photographic origins. I suspect most of the DSLR migrators have no problems with prices - as we have been staring at those prices for years. I suspect the users who either migrated for P&S or are new are baffled by the prices.

For me, I bought a used Nikon 70-200/2.8 five years ago for $1400 and sold it a couple weeks ago for $1300. Both prices would have been higher had it had missing little things like a tripod foot and case. But it exemplifies a simple point. Quality glass is expensive, and it will remains so unless the system totally dies - and even then it might still be expensive. A 15 year old lens - the Minolta 80-200mm (possibly my favorite lens ever) STILL sells for about $1100-$1200. Sony won't repair it if it breaks. Its heavy. The AF is slow. And that is what it costs.

A new Canon 17-35/2.8 will set you back $1500. The Canon 24mm/1.4 runs $1600. And on and on and on. Incremental improvements in lenses do not cost linearly more. They are expensive. Very expensive. m43 is no different.
--
http://jcharding.zenfolio.com/

they pretty much never depreciate in value so you are just "renting" them with the time value of your money.

Of all the legacy glass I own, all of it bought used, they are all worth at least (or more) than what I paid for them.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=42128416

it is bodies that are expensive, not lenses.

TEdolph

I don't think you've ever mentioned that before ;).
--

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Songwriters do it all the time!

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Tedolph

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Guy Parsons
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Bodies....
In reply to tedolf, Jul 27, 2012

tedolf wrote:

it is bodies that are expensive, not lenses.

Slight correction:

Chasing the latest body is expensive.

Getting a refurb E-PL1 is cheaper than any lens.

Regards......... Guy

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bobn2
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Re: "Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"
In reply to papillon_65, Jul 27, 2012

papillon_65 wrote:

I love a good film quote so first prize goes to the person who spots the film ;). Anyway, I digress. Not too long ago I heard the forlorn cry "where are the fast zooms on m4/3's ?" on occasions too numerous to count. So Panasonic release a very high quality constant F2.8 zoom which I now own. I can tell you that it is a very well made lens, it has the classic range of 24-70mm in 135 terms, it's a constant F2.8, it has very effective OIS, it's an excellent performer, it's weathersealed, it's small and light for what it offers, it's sharp at F2.8 and very consistent throughout it's range across the frame.

So now I hear "it's over-priced!". Really? I mean do you expect a lens like this to cost the same as a kit zoom or just a little more? Seriously?. Try and find a lens this good and this small anywhere else. Don't expect the price to plummet either, lenses like this are not cheap and never will be. Don't try to tell me the Zuiko 14-54mm is a better option, it isn't and it isn't as good, I've owned one and it was a very nice lens but the 12-35mm is better. So quit the whining, you got your fast zoom and no its not cheap, quality lenses rarely are, so I say again.....

"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"

Just saying ;).

$1300 is a lot for a standard zoom. This one, looking at SLRGear's tests looks very good, if not at the level of the absolute best. It does the same job, in terms of the photos that is can take, as a 15-44/3.5 on Canon APS-C, a 16-47/3.7 on Nikon/Sony APS-C and a 24-70/5.6 on 24x36mm. So, whether $1300 is a lot to pay depends on what the competition thinks is good value.

Canon: 17-55/2.8. Probably not as well made, but over half a stop faster, also bigger and heavier. $970 - maybe a tie?

Canon: 24-105/4L. Sealed, IS, a stop faster. Not as good at the long end, bigger, heavier. $1100 - maybe a tie.

Nikon: 17-55/2.8G DX. Sealed, well made, not as good optically, over half a stop faster, no IS, bigger. $1200 - Panasonic wins.

Nikon 24-85/3.5-4.5G VR FX. Not sealed, probably not as well made, not fixed f-number, but still faster through the range, probably as good optically, bigger, $600. Nikon wins on VFM.

Sony 16-50/2.8. Not as well made, 2/3 stop faster, optically not as good, bigger, but only $700 - tie in terms of VFM?

Sony 24-80/2.8 ZA. Bigger heavier and (for the same photo) optically better. 2 stops faster, but not as good wide open. $1800. - tie?

So, taking all in all, looks to me that Panasonic got the price about right. Loos some absolute speed with respect to the larger formats but gain compactness and maintain quality. Looks like a fair deal.
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Bob

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JimSocks
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Re: "Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"
In reply to papillon_65, Jul 27, 2012

Prices already dropping on ebay. Hoping this becomes kit for gh3

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papillon_65
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Re: "Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?"
In reply to JimSocks, Jul 27, 2012

JimSocks wrote:

Prices already dropping on ebay. Hoping this becomes kit for gh3

They'll always drop from the initial price but they won't drop too far. I agree, the best hope for a good deal would be an offering with the GH3 (whenever that will be).
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papillon_65
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Re: Bodies....
In reply to Guy Parsons, Jul 27, 2012

Guy Parsons wrote:

tedolf wrote:

it is bodies that are expensive, not lenses.

Slight correction:

Chasing the latest body is expensive.

Getting a refurb E-PL1 is cheaper than any lens.

Regards......... Guy

Please...no EPL-1 love in, I know what you two are like when it comes to this camera ;).
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