Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market

Started Jul 22, 2012 | Discussions
duckling
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Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
Jul 22, 2012

Canon seems to be doing most of the basic design decisions just right:

  • Sensor size is the same as in their crop DSLR range, which means no change in effective focal length for adapted lenses.

  • On-chip PDAF (assuming same technology as in the 650D) will enable the use of adapted lenses with no functional limitations.

  • Flange distance (presumably) between 20 and 22 mm is not quite enough, but a lot closer than Sony's 18 mm.

The first body is very entry level with a design familiar to Canon's P&S crowd, but don't count on it. Within six months they may (and should) produce a camera with the size, controls and speed to beat m4/3's best offerings. Most importantly, Canon's system will work seamlessly with its DSLR glass which is a huge advantage considering the abundance of those lenses. There will be absolutely no reason for existing Canon users to opt for any other mirrorless system.

I don't particularly like Canon's "culture" of superiority-by-numbers. Never used any of their gear. In fact I appreciate the smaller manufacturers such as Pentax, Fuji and Olympus due to their creativity and innovation, but you have to give it to Canon. Their mirrorless venture is well thought out from the very beginning. In two years they will produce at least 40% of the mirrorless cameras in the market.
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Acrill
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

Your post belongs in Canon Talk.

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Aku Ankka
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Not a Canon forum and possible misconseption
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

duckling wrote:

  • Flange distance (presumably) between 20 and 22 mm is not quite enough, but a lot closer than Sony's 18 mm.

There is no advantage in increasing the flange focal distance. If anything it just adds a limitation to lens design - you can always add 5mm of empty space to the back of the lens.

At some point in the future we will hopefully get sensors where the photoreceptors are not allergic to light hitting at significant angle and if/when that happens, the shorter the register, the better.

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Quack!

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Dixa
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

enough with the viral marketing. you know NOTHING about the camera. nobody does that has not signed an NDA.

duckling wrote:

Canon seems to be doing most of the basic design decisions just right:

  • Sensor size is the same as in their crop DSLR range, which means no change in effective focal length for adapted lenses.

  • On-chip PDAF (assuming same technology as in the 650D) will enable the use of adapted lenses with no functional limitations.

  • Flange distance (presumably) between 20 and 22 mm is not quite enough, but a lot closer than Sony's 18 mm.

The first body is very entry level with a design familiar to Canon's P&S crowd, but don't count on it. Within six months they may (and should) produce a camera with the size, controls and speed to beat m4/3's best offerings. Most importantly, Canon's system will work seamlessly with its DSLR glass which is a huge advantage considering the abundance of those lenses. There will be absolutely no reason for existing Canon users to opt for any other mirrorless system.

I don't particularly like Canon's "culture" of superiority-by-numbers. Never used any of their gear. In fact I appreciate the smaller manufacturers such as Pentax, Fuji and Olympus due to their creativity and innovation, but you have to give it to Canon. Their mirrorless venture is well thought out from the very beginning. In two years they will produce at least 40% of the mirrorless cameras in the market.
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Adventsam
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

duckling wrote:

Canon seems to be doing most of the basic design decisions just right:

No evf, no IBIS, fail

  • Sensor size is the same as in their crop DSLR range, which means no change in effective focal length for adapted lenses.

Get real, 1.6 vs 2 who gives a monkey, throw in Canon legendary banding and poor dr, Fail

  • On-chip PDAF (assuming same technology as in the 650D) will enable the use of adapted lenses with no functional limitations.

OMD can track like most premium DSLR from what I've seen

  • Flange distance (presumably) between 20 and 22 mm is not quite enough, but a lot closer than Sony's 18 mm.

OK, but it needs to deliver iq not a flange size

The first body is very entry level with a design familiar to Canon's P&S crowd, but don't count on it. Within six months they may (and should) produce a camera with the size, controls and speed to beat m4/3's best offerings. Most importantly, Canon's system will work seamlessly with its DSLR glass which is a huge advantage considering the abundance of those lenses. There will be absolutely no reason for existing Canon users to opt for any other mirrorless system.

Yes, basic p&s, fail

I don't particularly like Canon's "culture" of superiority-by-numbers. Never used any of their gear. In fact I appreciate the smaller manufacturers such as Pentax, Fuji and Olympus due to their creativity and innovation, but you have to give it to Canon. Their mirrorless venture is well thought out from the very beginning. In two years they will produce at least 40% of the mirrorless cameras in the market.
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G1X, fail, Canon - M , fail, Canon will retreat to DSLR and slowly fade away to the so called higher-end FF niche.

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nick101
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

All this "analysis" based on an unannounced product, backed up by some low quality pictures and a bunch of rumour sites all of whom have simply copied their content from one rumour site.

Working with facts is so tedious, isn't it?

duckling wrote:

Canon seems to be doing most of the basic design decisions just right:

  • Sensor size is the same as in their crop DSLR range, which means no change in effective focal length for adapted lenses.

  • On-chip PDAF (assuming same technology as in the 650D) will enable the use of adapted lenses with no functional limitations.

  • Flange distance (presumably) between 20 and 22 mm is not quite enough, but a lot closer than Sony's 18 mm.

The first body is very entry level with a design familiar to Canon's P&S crowd, but don't count on it. Within six months they may (and should) produce a camera with the size, controls and speed to beat m4/3's best offerings. Most importantly, Canon's system will work seamlessly with its DSLR glass which is a huge advantage considering the abundance of those lenses. There will be absolutely no reason for existing Canon users to opt for any other mirrorless system.

I don't particularly like Canon's "culture" of superiority-by-numbers. Never used any of their gear. In fact I appreciate the smaller manufacturers such as Pentax, Fuji and Olympus due to their creativity and innovation, but you have to give it to Canon. Their mirrorless venture is well thought out from the very beginning. In two years they will produce at least 40% of the mirrorless cameras in the market.
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3DrJ
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How do you know?
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

Trouble with fortune telling is it's no more than a guess. Especially when a new product hasn't even been officially announced, nor are the specs known, let alone any "independent" review.

We don't keep track very well how often such predictions are wrong, or turn out far differently. A year ago, who know how well the EM-5 would be received? It was only after information about it surfaced and testing showed it had promise did it take off.

With the new Canon, we just have to wait a while to see how it goes. Interestingly, Canon fans don't seem wild about it, based on preliminary info. Wait a few days, watch the Canon users' opinions. That should tell us something.

JRA

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3DrJ
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to nick101, Jul 22, 2012

nick101 wrote:

All this "analysis" based on an unannounced product, backed up by some low quality pictures and a bunch of rumour sites all of whom have simply copied their content from one rumour site.

Working with facts is so tedious, isn't it?

Naturally, having to wait for the facts is not only tedious, but tries one's patience as well.

What really hurts is when facts don't match the way we want it to be.

Oh well, guess we will soon find out what it is and what it isn't.

JRA

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eques
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Like Sony, Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

duckling wrote:

Canon seems to be doing most of the basic design decisions just right:

  • Sensor size is the same as in their crop DSLR range, which means no change in effective focal length for adapted lenses.

  • On-chip PDAF (assuming same technology as in the 650D) will enable the use of adapted lenses with no functional limitations.

  • Flange distance (presumably) between 20 and 22 mm is not quite enough, but a lot closer than Sony's 18 mm.

I think, Canon did the basic decisions just wrong:

  • Sensor size makes lenses rather big. The smallest cameras will give no real size advantage.

  • On-chip PDAF could be done on a smaller chip as well.

  • Flange distance of 20-22mm will give some advantage in edge performance (BTW, what do you mean: 22mm being a lot closer than 18mm??)

The first body is very entry level with a design familiar to Canon's P&S crowd, but don't count on it. Within six months they may (and should) produce a camera with the size, controls and speed to beat m4/3's best offerings. Most importantly, Canon's system will work seamlessly with its DSLR glass which is a huge advantage considering the abundance of those lenses. There will be absolutely no reason for existing Canon users to opt for any other mirrorless system.

But how about other people? The mirrorless camera doesn't show any persuasive advantage compared to mFT. (Body size: see above)

I don't particularly like Canon's "culture" of superiority-by-numbers. Never used any of their gear.

Neither did I. But I was tempted to buy into the system, if their mirrorless camera proved to be convincing. Well, it does not look that. Canon is afraid of their own courage.

In fact I appreciate the smaller manufacturers such as Pentax, Fuji and Olympus due to their creativity and innovation, but you have to give it to Canon. Their mirrorless venture is well thought out from the very beginning. In two years they will produce at least 40% of the mirrorless cameras in the market.
--

Perhaps you are right. But I think they are going the NEX way: tiny bodies, ungainly lenses, though perhaps better glass than the Sony bottle bottoms. (BTW: nex is Latin for (violent) death. )

And if you take into consideration, that Canon's sensors are at least a year behind in development, then this doesn't bode well for Canon as a whole.

Peter.

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highwave
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

Not interested in the huge lenses that will accompany this camera

if I wanted huge lenses I would have bought a FF camera. That would justify the bulk. The new Canon system will be an NEX competitor not a m43 competitor.

And people who buy into such small body giant lens systems just don't get the point in my opinion.

I'm very happy to hear that Canon decide to go for APS-C size sensor. That means no worries for me. m43 Future us secure.

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Cephalotus
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

duckling wrote:

Within six months they may (and should) produce a camera with the size, controls and
speed to beat m4/3's best offerings.

I read this since the introduction of the Panasonic G1 and that was 4 years ago. Look what Canon has made after those 4 years...

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noirdesir
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Re: Not a Canon forum and possible misconseption
In reply to Aku Ankka, Jul 22, 2012

Aku Ankka wrote:

duckling wrote:

  • Flange distance (presumably) between 20 and 22 mm is not quite enough, but a lot closer than Sony's 18 mm.

There is no advantage in increasing the flange focal distance. If anything it just adds a limitation to lens design - you can always add 5mm of empty space to the back of the lens.

As you said, a short register does by no means force lenses to have to last element closer to the sensor than a longer register. But what is equally important, a short distance of the last lens element to sensor does not necessarily lead to oblique light angles off-center. Just look at the Fuji X-100 (and to some degree the X-1 Pro), the last lens element is very close to the sensor but what this does is exactly the opposite, it makes the light rays more perpendicular.

In that sense, a shorter register allows for lens designs that produce less corner shadow (it allows, it does not automatically lead to). The only downside is that for the exact same lens designs, a shorter register naturally leads to longer lenses (but unless one has a lot of lenses that likely does not add up to much).

At some point in the future we will hopefully get sensors where the photoreceptors are not allergic to light hitting at significant angle and if/when that happens, the shorter the register, the better.

I think the future might lie in lens designs like the X-100 has them, by allowing the lens design to approach the sensor within a few millimeters, it is possible to reduce corner shading while keeping the overall lens length (register + lens length) compact.

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Thread City
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It's not about the body, it's about the lens
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

Adapting dslr lenses to a small body is no more attractive with this camera than with the nikon 1 or nex series. Don't quit your day job, unless you're a business analyst

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RaymondR
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

duckling wrote:

Canon seems to be doing most of the basic design decisions just right:

Within six months they may (and should) produce a camera with the size, controls and speed to beat m4/3's best offerings. Most importantly, Canon's system will work seamlessly with its DSLR glass which is a huge advantage considering the abundance of those lenses. There will be absolutely no reason for existing Canon users to opt for any other mirrorless system.

One reason you seem to have missed entirely and the reason why m4/3 will survive and thrive -- lens size. Canon wants to compete against NEX, not m4/3. That is all well and good and many Canon dslr users may just slide over to the M mount system. But many will still want smaller lenses to go with smaller bodies and Canon's choice of sensor size sinks that boat forever. no knock on Canon -- just don't forget that there are plenty of folks out there whose priorities differ from yours. Canon had to go one way or the other and the M system may be right for want Canon wants to do, but it isn't right for those of us who deliberately chose m4/3 for OVERALL system size reduction. When Canon can make an M mount lens like the Oly 45mm 1.8 that is just as SMALL and light as the Oly, then and only then will Canon "beat" m4/3's best offerings.
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Matz03
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

Here's why the cannon mirrorless will be successful, even more so than the Nikon entry, it all comes to distribution. The average consumer has no clue what a mirror is in a camera or a mirrorless camera is, they see the big dslr and it's a "good" camera. Now they'll have the option to choose from a much smaller and lighter camera from a name brand they know very well and will see in every electronics store they enter, the wal-mart, targets, and best buys. Even if such a camera isn't well received with members of this forum, it doesn't matter, law of large numbers prevails.

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Chris R-UK
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In reply to Matz03, Jul 22, 2012

I have a Canon DSLR (7D) and two M4/3 bodies (GH2 and GF1). I use the Canon for wildlife and M4/3 for more casual photography.

The thing that the new Canon would bring for me, especially if the PDAF works reasonably well, is a small emergency backup body that can use my 7D lenses.

I can't see it replacing my M4/3 equipment because, as so many others have pointed out, the lenses are going to big to offset M4/3's main advantage for me - size/weight.

I suspect that the new Canon will be a good alternative to a G12 or G1X for Canon DSLR owners who want a smaller camera and don't want to have to learn another menu/controls system.

My conclusion - it will sell well to existing Canon DSLR owners, but I am not so sure that it will impact much on the rest of the CSC market.

However, if the announcement includes 6-8 new lenses it will mean that Canon is going to take this market much more seriously than Nikon has.
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SHood
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

Their on-chip PDAF is slower than any other mirrorless. I hardly see this as a benefit.

650D video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0BvlNyQB8E&feature=youtu.be

duckling wrote:

Canon seems to be doing most of the basic design decisions just right:

  • Sensor size is the same as in their crop DSLR range, which means no change in effective focal length for adapted lenses.

  • On-chip PDAF (assuming same technology as in the 650D) will enable the use of adapted lenses with no functional limitations.

  • Flange distance (presumably) between 20 and 22 mm is not quite enough, but a lot closer than Sony's 18 mm.

The first body is very entry level with a design familiar to Canon's P&S crowd, but don't count on it. Within six months they may (and should) produce a camera with the size, controls and speed to beat m4/3's best offerings. Most importantly, Canon's system will work seamlessly with its DSLR glass which is a huge advantage considering the abundance of those lenses. There will be absolutely no reason for existing Canon users to opt for any other mirrorless system.

I don't particularly like Canon's "culture" of superiority-by-numbers. Never used any of their gear. In fact I appreciate the smaller manufacturers such as Pentax, Fuji and Olympus due to their creativity and innovation, but you have to give it to Canon. Their mirrorless venture is well thought out from the very beginning. In two years they will produce at least 40% of the mirrorless cameras in the market.
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baxters
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to Matz03, Jul 22, 2012

Matz03 wrote:

Here's why the cannon mirrorless will be successful, even more so than the Nikon entry, it all comes to distribution.

Agreed. The average consumer who wants a better camera needs to hold it and see it. They want a sales person to tell them what's good. If that takes a visit to your local shop, Ritz, Best Buy, Costco, or Walmart, that's fine.

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Clayton1985
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Re: Why Canon is going to win the EVIL market
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

There are way too many unknowns to determine that Canon will win the EVIL market.

Based on what we do know I see this as a competitor to NEX and entry level DSLRs more than m4/3 although certainly some m4/3s users will switch.

I won't know how I feel about the camera until I see the size of a 70-300 zoom or simliar lens. My guess is that is will not be much different than NEX lenses at these focal lengths but we'll see.

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Morpho Hunter
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Canon have left it too late to enter the mirrorless market...
In reply to duckling, Jul 22, 2012

Sony and Olympus have it all sewn up ...and the former will eventually lose out to the latter. If Canon had launched a camera before the shockingly-good OM-D exploded onto the scene, then they would have had a chance. The OM-D is a total game-changer - small sensors no longer mean unacceptable image noise. I took OM-D to work recently and my colleagues (mostly Canon and Nikon dslr owners) were stunned by the size and build quality of this little wonder.

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