1Dx Review

Started Jul 11, 2012 | Discussions
John Zimmerman
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1Dx Review
Jul 11, 2012

I just came across a very interesting review of the 1Dx by Chris Dodds. I am happy I didn't cancel my order.

http://naturephotographyblog.squarespace.com/journal/2012/7/10/canon-1dx-first-impressions-mini-review.html

Canon EOS-1D
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Guy Lerner
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to John Zimmerman, Jul 11, 2012

I don't know...much of what he said could also be said for the 5D3. Would be an interesting comparison in his hands.

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Shotted
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to Guy Lerner, Jul 11, 2012

Technically, brilliantly captured. Stopping the action, DR and the rest cannot be faulted.
But I personally find the images very 'digital', unnatural and quite harsh.
Don

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Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to Shotted, Jul 11, 2012

"I did love the narrow depth-of-field from the full frame sensor"

Quoi?

Do sensors alter the depth of field according to their sizes?

I think we should be told about this..

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riknash
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to John Zimmerman, Jul 11, 2012

It would be interesting to examine the RAW of some of his 1DX photos.

John Zimmerman wrote:

I just came across a very interesting review of the 1Dx by Chris Dodds. I am happy I didn't cancel my order.

http://naturephotographyblog.squarespace.com/journal/2012/7/10/canon-1dx-first-impressions-mini-review.html

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Turbo Hampster
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee, Jul 11, 2012

Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee wrote:

"I did love the narrow depth-of-field from the full frame sensor"

Quoi?

Do sensors alter the depth of field according to their sizes?

I think we should be told about this..

How should we told?

Most people serious about photography already know this! Haven't you ever wondered why it is pretty much impossible to get any kind of bokeh on a point and shoot even though the lens is usually an F2 or so?????

Maybe they should put warning stickers on all crop cameras aswell to warn owners that they wont get the same field of view on their lenses

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ihv
ihv
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to Turbo Hampster, Jul 11, 2012

Turbo Hampster wrote:

Most people serious about photography already know this! Haven't you ever wondered why it is pretty much impossible to get any kind of bokeh on a point and shoot even though the lens is usually an F2 or so?????

Sensor size has nothing to do with it, it is the focal length in combination with aperture.
This concerns depth of field, bokeh is more a quality of a lens.

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oysso
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to ihv, Jul 11, 2012

ihv wrote:

Turbo Hampster wrote:

Most people serious about photography already know this! Haven't you ever wondered why it is pretty much impossible to get any kind of bokeh on a point and shoot even though the lens is usually an F2 or so?????

Sensor size has nothing to do with it, it is the focal length in combination with aperture.
This concerns depth of field, bokeh is more a quality of a lens.

You forgot distance to focal plane is also very important factor for DOF.
And sensor size is affecting DOF. even if you tell otherwise.

Actually a FF has more DOF than a Cropped camera at same distance and focal length.

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bradleyg5
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to ihv, Jul 11, 2012

ihv wrote:

Turbo Hampster wrote:

Most people serious about photography already know this! Haven't you ever wondered why it is pretty much impossible to get any kind of bokeh on a point and shoot even though the lens is usually an F2 or so?????

Sensor size has nothing to do with it, it is the focal length in combination with aperture.
This concerns depth of field, bokeh is more a quality of a lens.

ummm it's just MUCH MUCH simpler to say the depth of field changes with sensor size.

You tell me how in one sentence, to explain why with subjects framed identically on a full frame and a 1.6x crop camera with identical lens the depth of field will be different?

it is the focal length in combination with aperture.
This concerns depth of field

AND?! see even you smart man miss key variable, focusing distance. The sensor sizes changes the focusing distance you will need to use to get equivalent framing and this changes depth of field. It's one step removed and vastly more understandable to just say depth of field is affected by sensor size, since in usage it is.

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ihv
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to bradleyg5, Jul 11, 2012

bradleyg5 wrote:

ummm it's just MUCH MUCH simpler to say the depth of field changes with sensor size.

Yes, but it is not correct.

You tell me how in one sentence, to explain why with subjects framed identically on a full frame and a 1.6x crop camera with identical lens the depth of field will be different?

Because the subject distance is different.

DOF is dependant on lens' aperture and focal length what concerns camera parameters; and also of subject distance (not a camera property).

it is the focal length in combination with aperture.
This concerns depth of field

AND?! see even you smart man miss key variable, focusing distance.

Subject distance is not a property of a camera we were discussing about. Yes, it affects DOF, that I agree.

The sensor sizes changes the focusing distance you will need to use to get equivalent framing and this changes depth of field. It's one step removed and vastly more understandable to just say depth of field is affected by sensor size, since in usage it is.

Yes, easier to grasp but nevertheless not correct. I was not really discussing what is appropriate.

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ihv
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to oysso, Jul 11, 2012

oysso wrote:

ihv wrote:

Sensor size has nothing to do with it, it is the focal length in combination with aperture.
This concerns depth of field, bokeh is more a quality of a lens.

You forgot distance to focal plane is also very important factor for DOF.

Yes, but this is external factor, not a camera property. You can't change distance in camera, but one can change focal length.

And sensor size is affecting DOF. even if you tell otherwise.

Actually a FF has more DOF than a Cropped camera at same distance and focal length.

I don't believe so - test yourself:

1. take a shot with an FF camera
2. now crop the same shot in the computer (equivalent to a crop sensor camera)

Is the DOF different?

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Fraxinus excelsior
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to ihv, Jul 11, 2012

ihv wrote:

oysso wrote:

ihv wrote:

Sensor size has nothing to do with it, it is the focal length in combination with aperture.
This concerns depth of field, bokeh is more a quality of a lens.

You forgot distance to focal plane is also very important factor for DOF.

Yes, but this is external factor, not a camera property. You can't change distance in camera, but one can change focal length.

And sensor size is affecting DOF. even if you tell otherwise.

Actually a FF has more DOF than a Cropped camera at same distance and focal length.

I don't believe so - test yourself:

1. take a shot with an FF camera
2. now crop the same shot in the computer (equivalent to a crop sensor camera)

Is the DOF different?

No. But if take a 150mm on FF and a 100mm on APS-C then you get approx the same subject size in your photo but less dof in the FF photo since you have a longer focal length.

Kind regards

D

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pgb
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to Fraxinus excelsior, Jul 11, 2012

Fraxinus excelsior wrote:

ihv wrote:

oysso wrote:

ihv wrote:

Sensor size has nothing to do with it, it is the focal length in combination with aperture.
This concerns depth of field, bokeh is more a quality of a lens.

You forgot distance to focal plane is also very important factor for DOF.

Yes, but this is external factor, not a camera property. You can't change distance in camera, but one can change focal length.

And sensor size is affecting DOF. even if you tell otherwise.

Actually a FF has more DOF than a Cropped camera at same distance and focal length.

I don't believe so - test yourself:

1. take a shot with an FF camera
2. now crop the same shot in the computer (equivalent to a crop sensor camera)

Is the DOF different?

No, because your zooming into a 2D bitmap, that won't change the focus point
or DOF like different lenses do.

No. But if take a 150mm on FF and a 100mm on APS-C then you get approx the same subject size in your photo but less dof in the FF photo since you have a longer focal length.

Kind regards

or a smaller sensor requires a wider lens to get the same angle of view and wider lenses inherently have more DOF for a given f stop.

In the beginning was the rhythm but I had forgotten and was waiting for the beat.

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oysso
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to ihv, Jul 11, 2012

ihv wrote:

oysso wrote:

ihv wrote:

Sensor size has nothing to do with it, it is the focal length in combination with aperture.
This concerns depth of field, bokeh is more a quality of a lens.

You forgot distance to focal plane is also very important factor for DOF.

Yes, but this is external factor, not a camera property. You can't change distance in camera, but one can change focal length.

And sensor size is affecting DOF. even if you tell otherwise.

Actually a FF has more DOF than a Cropped camera at same distance and focal length.

wrong:
7D with 50 mm at F2 and distance 100 cm: 2.89 cm DOF
5D II with 50 mm at F2 and distance 100 cm : 4.56 cm

so at same focal length the Full format has more DOF,
But at equivalet focal length is another story:
80 mm is equivalet to 50 mm for crop.
yields:
1.78 cm DOF for the 5D II,

So conclusion is:

Full frame has MORE DOF for same focal length. But if you want the same framing at same distance then you have to use different focal length and hence yields less DOF for full frame.

I don't believe so - test yourself:

1. take a shot with an FF camera
2. now crop the same shot in the computer (equivalent to a crop sensor camera)

Is the DOF different?

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David Franklin
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Always much confusion about this much misunderstood concept
In reply to ihv, Jul 11, 2012

Bokeh is a way of defining the quality of an out-of-focus area in a picture field, and it is controlled by the lens entirely; aperture blade shape and number (creating the shape of the diaphram opening) and lens formula and construction determine bokeh.

Depth-of-field is only indirectly determined by the size of the imaging sensor or film, or the lens focal length. The factors which directly determine depth-of-field are: the exact framing of the picture field (point of view), the point of sharp focus in that picture field (focus distance) and the lens aperture itself (which is defined by the focal length of the lens as compared to the size of the diaphram opening). Whether a lens is a wide angle or telephoto or in between, except for extremely small and arcane differences, matter not a bit as to depth-of-field, except as how they change the resulting picture field for any given sensor size. And, of course, the same can be said of format size; the same focal length lens for different sensor sizes yields different picture fields when the format size is changed. No matter how you slice it, this is how it works. However, this is a very hard concept to "get" unless one sees graphic evidence for it for oneself. It helps if you shot different format sized film in the past, like 35mm and 8x10, where the differences between point of view at the same nominal focal lengths are so gross and obvious, and the differences in depth of field in trying to shoot the same picture field (with grossly different focal length lenses, which, in turn, affect the depth-of-field controlling focus distances) are also so obvious.

I hope I've explained this in a way that is fairly understandable; it's pretty hard to do without lots of illustrations and diagrams, which I am too lazy and time-limited to make.

Regards,
David
--
Keep learning; share knowledge; think seriously about outcomes; seek wisdom.

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Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to Turbo Hampster, Jul 11, 2012

Turbo Hampster wrote:

Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee wrote:

"I did love the narrow depth-of-field from the full frame sensor"

Quoi?

Do sensors alter the depth of field according to their sizes?

I think we should be told about this..

How should we told?

Most people serious about photography already know this! Haven't you ever wondered why it is pretty much impossible to get any kind of bokeh on a point and shoot even though the lens is usually an F2 or so?????

Maybe they should put warning stickers on all crop cameras aswell to warn owners that they wont get the same field of view on their lenses

It's not the sensor. It's the focal length/aperture of the lens. The DOF is the same on an APS-C, APS-H or Full frame, with the same lens.

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tko
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every one of you is wrong! :)
In reply to Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee, Jul 11, 2012

Jeez, it's like the wise men describing the elephant. I guess technically, you each got one part right - while ignoring everything else.

The simplest, easiest way to understand DOF is that it's dominated by subject magnification (squared) - the ratio of real subject size to the virtual image size projected on the sensor. It's that simple. After that, it's proportional to F-stop.

If you keep the same framing, the magnification changes as the sensor size changes. If you change the FL the magnification changes. If you change the distance the magnification changes. If the subject gets larger with the same framing, the magnification changes. All these factors impact magnification, but individually confusing. Magnification is the root cause that explain everything.

A macro has limited DOF because of the magnification. Even at F22. A fisheye has unlimited DOF because of the (lack of) magnification. Even at F4.0

Use this rule and you'll never be wrong.

Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee wrote:

Turbo Hampster wrote:

Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee wrote:

"I did love the narrow depth-of-field from the full frame sensor"

Quoi?

Do sensors alter the depth of field according to their sizes?

I think we should be told about this..

How should we told?

Most people serious about photography already know this! Haven't you ever wondered why it is pretty much impossible to get any kind of bokeh on a point and shoot even though the lens is usually an F2 or so?????

Maybe they should put warning stickers on all crop cameras aswell to warn owners that they wont get the same field of view on their lenses

It's not the sensor. It's the focal length/aperture of the lens. The DOF is the same on an APS-C, APS-H or Full frame, with the same lens.

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Turbo Hampster
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee, Jul 11, 2012

Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee wrote:

Turbo Hampster wrote:

Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee wrote:

"I did love the narrow depth-of-field from the full frame sensor"

Quoi?

Do sensors alter the depth of field according to their sizes?

I think we should be told about this..

How should we told?

Most people serious about photography already know this! Haven't you ever wondered why it is pretty much impossible to get any kind of bokeh on a point and shoot even though the lens is usually an F2 or so?????

Maybe they should put warning stickers on all crop cameras aswell to warn owners that they wont get the same field of view on their lenses

It's not the sensor. It's the focal length/aperture of the lens. The DOF is the same on an APS-C, APS-H or Full frame, with the same lens.

Well actually its not...

The depth of field if shot with the same lens and FRAMING on APS-C, APS-H or Full Frame will all be different!!!!!

And the 3 things that affect depth of field are focal length, Aperture & Focus Distance

As Explained by the guy above

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rrccad
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Re: 1Dx Review
In reply to oysso, Jul 11, 2012

oysso wrote:

ihv wrote:

oysso wrote:

ihv wrote:

Sensor size has nothing to do with it, it is the focal length in combination with aperture.
This concerns depth of field, bokeh is more a quality of a lens.

You forgot distance to focal plane is also very important factor for DOF.

Yes, but this is external factor, not a camera property. You can't change distance in camera, but one can change focal length.

And sensor size is affecting DOF. even if you tell otherwise.

Actually a FF has more DOF than a Cropped camera at same distance and focal length.

wrong:
7D with 50 mm at F2 and distance 100 cm: 2.89 cm DOF
5D II with 50 mm at F2 and distance 100 cm : 4.56 cm

so at same focal length the Full format has more DOF,
But at equivalet focal length is another story:
80 mm is equivalet to 50 mm for crop.
yields:
1.78 cm DOF for the 5D II,

well, yes / no. you are correct but really for the wrong reasons.

most simple DOF calculators change the CoC between a cropped body and a full frame camera body (.02mm versus .03mm) which is the same as showing the image on a 8x12" .. with no additional magnification.

However, that's not quite real world anymore.

for instance, viewed at 100% .. a D800 will have less DOF than than 5D Mark III .. a 5D Mark III will have less DOF than a 5D classic. why? smaller pixels = more sensor size magnification while keeping the observer distance the same. the more magnification, the smaller the circle of confusion has to be so that the in focus elements appear "in focus".

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facedodge
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Re: every one of you is wrong! :)
In reply to tko, Jul 11, 2012

tko wrote:

Jeez, it's like the wise men describing the elephant. I guess technically, you each got one part right - while ignoring everything else.

The simplest, easiest way to understand DOF is that it's dominated by subject magnification (squared) - the ratio of real subject size to the virtual image size projected on the sensor. It's that simple. After that, it's proportional to F-stop.

If you keep the same framing, the magnification changes as the sensor size changes. If you change the FL the magnification changes. If you change the distance the magnification changes. If the subject gets larger with the same framing, the magnification changes. All these factors impact magnification, but individually confusing. Magnification is the root cause that explain everything.

A macro has limited DOF because of the magnification. Even at F22. A fisheye has unlimited DOF because of the (lack of) magnification. Even at F4.0

Use this rule and you'll never be wrong.

What he said....

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