The foliage issue with X Pro1

Started Jun 29, 2012 | Discussions
baobob
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The foliage issue with X Pro1
Jun 29, 2012

No 5000+ shots but 2 actually!
As announced, this morning I shot the tree close to the house

ISO 200 f8 JPEG and RAW Canon EOS 5d 70-200mm f4 l IS zoom at 90mm and X Pro1 with 60mm, first JPEG then RAW lefy Fuji Right canon

As much as possible defaulte settings aznd AWB although the Fuji is too good in sun with AWB (prefers specifi sunny choice for better color rendition)
Developped ACR, default settings proposed by the program

No need of long description to notice in both JPEG and RAW from Fuji 2 issues :

1/- smearing is much more prononced leading in RAW to this caricatural watermark pattern of small details
2/- more of an issue color bleeding and the quasi absence of the brown buds

I carefully checked with my excellent 10*40binoculars the reality, which is close to canon

For people that want to play with the files they will be available in a few minutes on a french download server

Challenge : if someone is able to PP the Fuji fileto teach the level of quality of the Canon files in RAW the person wins a WE in my house in frebch Brittany!

That's all for the moment folks,

It apperas that genuine X pro users might have issues, not only trolls

Robert

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baobob
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Re: The foliage issue with X Pro1 files now available for download
In reply to baobob, Jun 29, 2012

at

http://dl.free.fr/jJFaKM7M6

It is in french, but you should survive easily

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pkincy
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Re: The foliage issue with X Pro1
In reply to baobob, Jun 29, 2012

Please recheck the order in which you posted the screen shots for me.

Both the "first, jpg" comment and than the "left Fuji, right Canon" comment.

Your comments and the file names don't seem to jive at all.

Perry

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baobob
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Re: The foliage issue with X Pro1
In reply to pkincy, Jun 29, 2012

You are right apologies but in full dimension you can easily find which is which
Sorry about it

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baobob
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Re: The foliage issue with X Pro1
In reply to baobob, Jun 29, 2012

Apologies to all in the comments about order!!
In my enthusiasm to upload I have mixed up things*

Experts would have recognized IMG files as canon, DSC as Fuji, CR as canon Raw DNG as the DNG conv ersion of Fuji RAW RAF files

Again sorry about it

Probably a missed act, just to check your demosaicing ability ??

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Chris Dodkin
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How many bedrooms?
In reply to baobob, Jun 29, 2012

JPEG File in gallery is here: http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/967475260/photos/2063323/tree

Could potentially improve upon this a little further - but I only had 10 mins between meetings.

All PP work using ACR into Photoshop.

Thank you for providing the original files.

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Jim Radcliffe
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Nice work Chris.... (NT)
In reply to Chris Dodkin, Jun 29, 2012
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The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

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Apsphoto
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Re: How many bedrooms?
In reply to Chris Dodkin, Jun 29, 2012

Chris,

Very interesting results, care to elaborate on your technique, we could all learn a lot from it, I would be interested to see what you did.

Thanks,
Alan
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Terry Cioni
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Re: How many bedrooms?
In reply to Chris Dodkin, Jun 29, 2012

Well done Chris...

Cheers, Terry.

Chris Dodkin wrote:

JPEG File in gallery is here: http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/967475260/photos/2063323/tree

Could potentially improve upon this a little further - but I only had 10 mins between meetings.

All PP work using ACR into Photoshop.

Thank you for providing the original files.

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pkincy
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Re: How many bedrooms?
In reply to Terry Cioni, Jun 29, 2012

I enjoy all my images on no more than a 24 inch monitor so kinda see this as much todo about nothing, but still I would need to actually see the tree to know which was the better (truer) image.

At least as I view these expanded images on my laptop from work.

I also love Monet, so some smearing is not a problem for me in a landscape.

And I frankly would not carry a CaNikon DSLR anywhere. Been there, done that.

The fact that we are having pixel peeping exercises with a state of the art FF DSLR says an awful lot about Fuji's success.

For the folks that love the bigger camera and see it as having better results for their purposes, kudos to them. The CaNikon forums await you.

Perry

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Mauro.B
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I can't see the issues you mention
In reply to baobob, Jun 29, 2012

I've opened the raw files you kindly provided in LR4 and set the XP1 raf as follows:

1. wb to 5500 / 38, as to visually match the 5D 5550 / 10
2. yellow hue -30
3. green hue -35

Color differences between XP1 and 5D are now closer - although I cannot comment on which palette is closer to reality.

Given that the 5D file is softer (and gets worse outside the frame center), I gave some "landscape sharpening" to both files: 70 / 1,3 / 20 / 25.

Well, I have to admit that, as far as foliage is concerned, the XP1 raw file looks to me much better than the 5D's. The latter is more confused and add softness in the outer thirds of the frame.

On jpeg I do not want to comment: both cameras' jpegs are worse than respective raw's, and the 5D's looks very bad.

The above comments refer to 100% screen viewing on a calibrated 17" MBP (mid 2010). On prints differences might narrow - only up to a certain size, though.

Best regards,

M

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Chris Dodkin
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Re: How many bedrooms?
In reply to Apsphoto, Jun 29, 2012

No problem

Will be happy to provide screen shots of the ACR settings when I get back from my meetings.

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baobob
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Re: How many bedrooms?
In reply to Chris Dodkin, Jun 29, 2012

2 are available !
What sharpening do you apply in each case
Found no problem with Canon of course found the Fuji file really problematic
For the moment you are first on the chalenge
Congratulations

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baobob
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Re: How many bedrooms?
In reply to Chris Dodkin, Jun 29, 2012

Yes please

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Chris Dodkin
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My RAW Workflow
In reply to baobob, Jun 30, 2012

First I want to state that their is no 'right' solution - it's all subjective.

It depends on the source camera, the subject material in the image, the destination (print/screen/web), the final image size, etc etc

You will have to adjust your post-processing to suit all of these variables.

And on top of all of that, you have your own perception of what you see.

Note - a calibrated screen, one which has been set-up using a proper color spyder device, does help a lot - it's not cheap, but it's worth it.

Workflow:

For this task I was aiming to match the Fuji image to the Canon, so I started with the Canon RAW image - imported into ACR, with my 'standard' settings.

Working top to bottom on the controls.

I tend to set WB to daylight for outdoor shots - as the Auto WB cancels out any natural daylight warmth - personal preference, but a good thing to try.

I look at the histogram and see if the image data fills the dynamic range - his tells me if I should be looking at the exposure adjustment - doesn't look like it needs any on this image.

I then skip to BLACKS - and use the ALT/OPTION key to see how much black is in the image. NOTE: Having some black in an image aids you perception of sharpness - it's not adding any sharpness, but your brain sees it that way - try it.

Use the ALT/OPTION key and click on the BLACK slider - the screen shows you any areas of hard black - adjust to please.

ALT/OPTION also works on Exposure and Whites, highlights and shadows - very handy.

Now we get to sharpening .

I start at Amount 53, Radius 1.3 on most RAW files, and adjust from there - trial and error has shown this gives me a good sharpening effect, without ringing on the edges.

It can introduce noise however, so Noise Reduction Luminance is set to 65.

You will have to adjust for your taste, image size etc etc etc.

On this image, we're done for this test.

Now on to the Fuji Image - trying to match or exceed the Canon Image.

I first set Daylight WB - then compared with the Canon image, and adjusted Blue and Magenta to more closely match tones.

Both extremes of the Fuji histogram seemed to require boosting to match the Canon, so I upped Whites and Blacks - possibly I could have just adjusted exposure generally and gone from there - many ways to get to the same result I expect.

The key element for X-Pro1 images appears to be CLARITY and SATURATION .

Talking with Pete Askew on http://www.realphotographersforum.com - we reviewed similar images from Leica cameras (again without AA filters) - and he suggested using CLARITY to make some key adjustments in the early days with the X-Pro1.

The clarity slider works a lot like the sharpen tool in ACR, however it doesn't apply any sharpening, but it increases the contrast around edges (or blurs them) depending on which way you move the slider.

This can have a great effect on the X-Pro1 RAW file without getting into the over sharpening issues that dramatically altering the sharpening controls can cause.

I moved the CLARITY to +18, and backed off Saturation -7 to compensate for some over saturated greens.

Moving to sharpening - I started in my usual position, then tweaked to 62 on Amount. And then added detail at 46.

I saw no noise so left Noise reduction at 0 and I see I had color detail at 100 (need to check if that really did anything - may have been left over from other tweaking)

Finally - I went to the Lens Correction screen and switched ON Remove Chromatic Aberration .

This should really be an auto feature in ACR - but has not yet been implemented for the Fuji X-Pro1 lenses. (The X100 lens does have a correction profile already, so there's hope)

So - this was the workflow for this project - hope this provides some useful starting points for other people to use.

Note: I don't think that only working at 100% has much value in the general scheme of things when doing RAW conversion - but again, your milage may vary.

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Apsphoto
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Re: My RAW Workflow
In reply to Chris Dodkin, Jun 30, 2012

Very interesting, I have used some similar stuff but this gives me some more ideas. The clarity is key, and that is adjusting mid-tone contrast, or at least that is how
Adobe lists it.

Thanks a lot for posting that, I really appreciate it.

Alan
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Chris Dodkin
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Re: My RAW Workflow
In reply to Apsphoto, Jun 30, 2012

Alan, glad it proved useful.

Chris.
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siludin
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Re: The foliage issue with X Pro1
In reply to baobob, Jun 30, 2012

Conversion from raw, using RPP (Raw Photo Processor):

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baobob
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Re: My RAW Workflow
In reply to Chris Dodkin, Jun 30, 2012

Hi Chris,

Thx a lot for sharing. very interesting results. i never had any problem with the CR2 file which I always found easy to manage in ACR

I find Fuji raw file much more sensitive to PP parameters You bring her advice and explanation (clarity) I was practicing the same than with CR2 files with rather horrible results. Moreover the catastrophic JPEG rendition of this tree made me more than skeptikal about the final ability of the system to achieve what I want : crisp foliage in a landscape photo.

This is the final result I get with your settings and it's really the best that I can get from the picture. The CR file is marginally better (here we start to split the hair ...) which is expected from a 21 megapix FF sensior with a much lower pixel density.

So you are definitly the winner of the foliage issue international challenge!

Come sometimes in Brittany

Last, your comments about the RPP of the last post ? seems to me globally closer to the reality than what produces ACR

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baobob
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Re: The foliage issue with X Pro1
In reply to siludin, Jun 30, 2012

Thx for posting

Thx a lot indeed! This is by far IMHO the best rendition of my photo in all respects : much more details much more realistic and photographic looking
It just shows finally what the camera is able to do
Could you post a canon Fuji comparison
You might be at the end of the day the winner of the challenge ??

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